gazoo

The Reason TD,DQ and Blank all said we had to get bigger on OL

499 posts in this topic

“This is my 19th year as an owner and one of the things I’ve learned is that Matt [Ryan] plays much better vertically than horizontally,” Blank told the Falcons website. 

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24 minutes ago, athell said:

Again.  You are misconstruing 20+ yard completions with throwing downfield.  Throwing a 3 yard screen to Kamara who takes it for 21 yards qualifies for your BS stat and is no way indicative of what you think it is.

That’s part of it. Just in general we have routes go further and have a different run blocking OL.

Shouldve won a SB with it. Personnel issues at OG was half the trouble last 2 years and RS pushed us over the edge of the rebuild/overhaul cliff.

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30 minutes ago, gazoo said:

I’m winning when you feel you have to start arguing with straw men. 

I wasn’t aware we were keeping score..  If it is, I suspect the mercy rule will soon be invoked

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6 minutes ago, gazoo said:

“This is my 19th year as an owner and one of the things I’ve learned is that Matt [Ryan] plays much better vertically than horizontally,” Blank told the Falcons website. 

You’re the one saying 2018 OL was better than 2016.  Show me a similar quote for that year

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9 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Here is a quote from Balnk

“This is my 19th year as an owner and one of the things I’ve learned is that Matt [Ryan] plays much better vertically than horizontally,” Blank told the Falcons website. 

“I don’t think we’re complete in terms of the offensive line. I think it’ll be an area of great scrutiny and activity during the draft.”

For pocket QBs, it matters where that pressure is coming from. It matters a lot.

OLs of Brees and  Brady have most years made sure to have good strong interior OL who can hold a pocket. 

I keep saying, my biggest issue here is Ryan having the interior of his OL collapse in on his feet. You do not see that happening to Brees or Brady hardly ever. If heat is coming off the edges, even if it’s immediate heat, Brady and Brees  just casually take. step forward and dump the ball off. 

Ryan, without a clean pocket to step into, has to move laterally and it creates far more QB hits this way. 

 

 

 

We clearly had bad OL play since our solid 2016 season.

Now, changing from a ZBS completely etc is a different topic.

Run blocking systems and players for them vs the natural differences in pass blocking.

Now, Levitre was gold for us at LG in our system; especially at pass blocking.

What we lacked was an elite RG. Chester and Schraeder were a good duo but primarily in their ability to run block for ZBS.

The line upgrades will help us get back to those levels hopefully at minimum. LG pass blocking and solid run blocker but right side becoming a strength in AT LEAST run blocking is essential to our success moving forward.

Again, NO does things differently with their run game and pass game. Same with NE.

So, those OL are built accordingly.

Kyle wanted ZBS. Should’ve got us a SB. Issue has been even replacing adequately Levitre and Chester.

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1 hour ago, gazoo said:

You do know Brees also drops back and throws a ton of deep balls, right?

In 2016, Brees actually had more 20+ yard completed passes in 2016 than Ryan did, yet Brees still was hit 36 times less that season.

In 2017, Brees had more 20+ yard completed passes than Ryan did in 2016 and was sacked only 20 times, hit only 58 times. That’s 50 less QB hits than Ryan took in 2016.

Sure, some of the hits can be blamed on scheme, but all you had to do was watch the games to see our OL getting shoved around and the Saints OL holding a good strong pocket for Brees for more often.

Where are you getting your hit stats from?

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35 minutes ago, gazoo said:

And Brees didn’t? Why was our QB hit virtually twice as much as Brees in 2016 and 2017 yet Brees actually had more 20+ yard completions those years?

Bro I wanted to come to your rescue with all the clowns on your tail, but they are right. Ryan threw longer than Brees, Brady and many others. The 20+ yard completion stat includes YAC. The better stat for measuring pass depth is CAY or IAY and Ryan clearly out flanks most of those guys in those categories. That will likely continue with Kutty and Larkey back on the staff. Good luck though.

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40 minutes ago, gazoo said:

And Brees didn’t? Why was our QB hit virtually twice as much as Brees in 2016 and 2017 yet Brees actually had more 20+ yard completions those years?

Where did you see that at?

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28 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

This is a solid post. And it makes a lot of sense. Saints have definitely invested in the OG. But I wonder how they will do without Unger now. Cause he helped those two guards out a lot

About as good as us without Mack

I don’t care what anyone says, Mack is the most valuable OL we have.  Center is just as important as LT.  Maybe more so in our system

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7 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Bro I wanted to come to your rescue with all the clowns on your tail, but they are right. Ryan threw longer than Brees, Brady and many others. The 20+ yard completion stat includes YAC. The better stat for measuring pass depth is CAY or IAY and Ryan clearly out flanks most of those guys in those categories. That will likely continue with Kutty and Larkey back on the staff. Good luck though.

 It it still doesn’t account for Ryan getting almost twice as many sacks and hits than Brees in years they are both completing as many 20+ yard passes. 

It might explain Ryan getting 5 or 10 more hits in a season, a few more sacks, but not 50 more hits and 15 more sacks.

Its Ryan’s interior pocket collapsing in passing situations that explains the variance. Brees drops back, pressure comes quickly, he steps forward untouched and dumps ball off.

Ryan drops back, interior pocket gets shoved into his feet, creating open stunt and blitz lanes, Ryan has to move laterally to escape pressure he sees in his face and steps into an unprotected zone

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Posted (edited)

I think the OL changes were needed because of Wes/merry go round and MIA at RT.

I don’t understand why you just wouldn’t use 2018 to make the point of needed changes; whether that meant bigger or not.

Levitre being hurt wasn’t part of the plan for last 2 years, but Wes they’ve seemingly missed on until now. That hurt not being able to adequately replace Chester.

RS at the same time was the perfect storm of a failed run game. Entire right side was Garbo and then Levitre; the better of the OGs from 2016 was hurt.

Interestingly, our draft picks are better athletes in their own right, but measure similar to the guys they are replacing.

Edited by Ergo Proxy

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its getting old year after both our OL and DL are among the lightest in the league and our QB gets sacked WAY to much and on DL we do not get enough sacks or pressure on the opposing QB. Look it's been more than a decade we keep going with these lines that are to light and we are not getting results. 

It is long over due we actually try something different and beef up our lines. I'm glad we did that with the OL but our DL still needs some size on it. You can't teach size we need larger lines in the trenches almost all our team weaknesses over the last decade start with our lines being to small on both sides.

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2 minutes ago, gazoo said:

 It it still doesn’t account for Ryan getting almost twice as many sacks and hits than Brees in years they are both completing as many 20+ yard passes. 

It might explain Ryan getting 5 or 10 more hits in a season, a few more sacks, but not 50 more hits and 15 more sacks.

Its the pocket collapsing that explains the variance. Brees drops back, pressure comes quickly, he steps forward untouched and dumps ball off.

Ryan drops back, interior pocket gets shoved into his feet, creating open stunt and blitz lanes, Ryan has to move laterally to escape pressure he sees in his face and steps into an unprotected zone

They don’t boot Brees often.

How much under C play-action does NO run and what is their intended route timing into the play?

Please don’t rely on the misleading metric of 20+ yard completions and look at where they target players to begin with; along with the matching time it takes both to throw.

If anything, our QB holds onto the ball longer. That’s why.

:) 

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36 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

This is a solid post. And it makes a lot of sense. Saints have definitely invested in the OG. But I wonder how they will do without Unger now. Cause he helped those two guards out a lot

Curious as well.  They didn't mess around and took one of the most pro ready centers.  I obviously hope he's a shambles/Peter Konz 2.0 but I don't think he is.

Though I was an exterior player...I just think having your interior OL down is the deal.  You can form a pocket.   You can run.  You can get mediocre tackles and tell them not to allow inside penetration, just ride them outside...because you know you can step up.  It controls a lot of the game.  I hope we finally have that for Ryan and our backs.  We'll see.

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10 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

We clearly had bad OL play since our solid 2016 season.

Now, changing from a ZBS completely etc is a different topic.

Run blocking systems and players for them vs the natural differences in pass blocking.

Now, Levitre was gold for us at LG in our system; especially at pass blocking.

What we lacked was an elite RG. Chester and Schraeder were a good duo but primarily in their ability to run block for ZBS.

The line upgrades will help us get back to those levels hopefully at minimum. LG pass blocking and solid run blocker but right side becoming a strength in AT LEAST run blocking is essential to our success moving forward.

Again, NO does things differently with their run game and pass game. Same with NE.

So, those OL are built accordingly.

Kyle wanted ZBS. Should’ve got us a SB. Issue has been even replacing adequately Levitre and Chester.

Do you see what I’m saying about where the pressure is coming from making a big difference?  

We don’t see consistent pressure up the middle or pockets consistently collapsing on passing downs on Brees or Brady, even when heat is coming from a pass rush. Since they have clean pockets as a rule, when heat comes quickly off the snap, they just step forward in a clean pocket and dump the ball off.

With Ryan, the pressure is constantly coming from up the middle. His pocket is constantly being pushed back into his feat creating lanes for stunts and blitzes. Ryan so many times will drop back and have defenders in his face literally a second after the snap.....this just doesn’t happen to Brees and Brady much.

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1 minute ago, takeitdown said:

Curious as well.  They didn't mess around and took one of the most pro ready centers.  I obviously hope he's a shambles/Peter Konz 2.0 but I don't think he is.

Though I was an exterior player...I just think having your interior OL down is the deal.  You can form a pocket.   You can run.  You can get mediocre tackles and tell them not to allow inside penetration, just ride them outside...because you know you can step up.  It controls a lot of the game.  I hope we finally have that for Ryan and our backs.  We'll see.

True but it will be an adjustment for him. You know those DC are smart. I can't wait to see how he does with the blitz pickups. And I expect our interior to be a lot better compared to years past

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12 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

About as good as us without Mack

I don’t care what anyone says, Mack is the most valuable OL we have.  Center is just as important as LT.  Maybe more so in our system

I agree 100%. The center has to call out line protections and recognize where the blitz is coming from. He is also responsible for line adjustments

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12 minutes ago, MAD597 said:

its getting old year after both our OL and DL are among the lightest in the league and our QB gets sacked WAY to much and on DL we do not get enough sacks or pressure on the opposing QB. Look it's been more than a decade we keep going with these lines that are to light and we are not getting results. 

It is long over due we actually try something different and beef up our lines. I'm glad we did that with the OL but our DL still needs some size on it. You can't teach size we need larger lines in the trenches almost all our team weaknesses over the last decade start with our lines being to small on both sides.

What's the ideal size for an elite lineman then?

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Do you see what I’m saying about where the pressure is coming from making a big difference?  

We don’t see consistent pressure up the middle or pockets consistently collapsing on passing downs on Brees or Brady, even when heat is coming from a pass rush. Since they have clean pockets as a rule, when heat comes quickly off the snap, they just step forward in a clean pocket and dump the ball off.

With Ryan, the pressure is constantly coming from up the middle. His pocket is constantly being pushed back into his feat creating lanes for stunts and blitzes. Ryan so many times will drop back and have defenders in his face literally a second after the snap.....this just doesn’t happen to Brees and Brady much.

I see what you are saying.

I’m just saying there are many factors. One is that we were exclusively a zone blocking system compared to their OLs.

Change the pass protection? Change the run game.

Interestingly enough, we may have our “mini-Brandon Brooks” in Brown if he gets a starting role. That re-shaping of our OL isn’t whole-sale is my point. (Going exclusively larger)

We are converting to being able to run more inside zone and even some power now if we want.

Lindstrom/Chester and McGary/Schraeder are basically similar sized.

Difference is McGary is quite a bit more athletic than RS overall and thus his physical ceiling is already higher than RS’s was and Lindstrom is up there for an OG as well.

Interestingly? In the context of RAS, Chester was a perfect 10 BUT was only graded among Centers.

I’m not sure where he grades at as an OG instead but of course he was playing here just before retirement.

Imagine:

Brown becomes like Brandon Brooks for us; read ability to play man or zone well

The Storm becomes a better all around OG than Levitre or Chester ever were; although they were good players for us

McScary/Nasty/Gyver becomes the perennial PB caliber RT we hoped Schraeder was on the verge of becoming in 2015

*Note, Carpenter could win a job but he is a stop gap compared to the younger JaMonsta

Conclusion: We are bigger AND faster; not mutually exclusive :tiphat: 

Edited by Ergo Proxy
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2 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

I see what you are saying.

I’m just saying there are many factors. One is that we were exclusively a zone blocking system compared to their OLs.

Change the pass protection? Change the run game.

Interestingly enough, we may have our “mini-Brandon Brooks” in Brown if he gets a starting role. That re-shaping of our OL isn’t whole-sale is my point.

We are converting to being able to run more inside zone and even some power now if we want.

Lindstorm and McGary are basically similar size to Schraeder and Chester.

Difference is McGary is quite a bit more athletic than RS overall and thus his physical ceiling is already higher than RS’s was and Lindstrom is up there for an OG as well.

Interestingly? In the context of RAS, Chester was a perfect 10 BUT was only graded among Centers.

I’m not sure where he grades at as an OG instead but of course he was playing here just before retirement.

Imagine:

Brown becomes like Brandon Brooks for us; read ability to play man or zone well

The Storm becomes a better all around OG than Levitre or Chester ever were; although they were good players for us

McScary/Nasty/Gyver becomes the perennial PB caliber RT we hoped Schraeder was on the verge of becoming in 2015

*Note, Carpenter could win a job but he is a stop gap compared to the younger JaMonsta

Conclusion: We are bigger AND faster; not mutually exclusive :tiphat: 

Agree with most everything you are saying. I do think Kaleb is a 317lb mauler and Shraeder was a 300lb more athletic than power, so I think a big difference in these two. 

No question Lindstrom is only 5 pounds heavier than Chester, but Chester was 33 years old and had lost much of his functional strength. I think the change brings more power and a better ability to anchor to hold a pocket. 

Levitre was a dam good LG for us, but I am glad now that he’s gone we got bigger/stronger and the expense of a little less mobility.

I want more than anything for Ryan to start enjoying a clean pocket on more occasion. Ryan with a clean pocket is just as lethal as Brees. Ryan, when having to constantly move laterally to avoid pressure loses some of his accuracy.

 

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26 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

Curious as well.  They didn't mess around and took one of the most pro ready centers.  I obviously hope he's a shambles/Peter Konz 2.0 but I don't think he is.

Though I was an exterior player...I just think having your interior OL down is the deal.  You can form a pocket.   You can run.  You can get mediocre tackles and tell them not to allow inside penetration, just ride them outside...because you know you can step up.  It controls a lot of the game.  I hope we finally have that for Ryan and our backs.  We'll see.

Me too. Clean Pocket for Ryan, less nasty hits coming from him getting pressure in his face, side stepping it and getting pounded on by another defender coming form another angle. 

 

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