gazoo

The Reason TD,DQ and Blank all said we had to get bigger on OL

499 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, PokerSteve said:

If you need me to go look up an example, I'm going to have to concede. I have way too much on my plate today to spend time on this.

I'm just saying off the top of your head give me a few games to look at where you remember us getting blown off the ball.

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48 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

Great thing our 2019 line should be better than both

I sure hope you’re right.   I’ll be very surprised if 2019 OL is better than either 2016 or 2017.  Our 2020 line could be special

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11 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

We didn’t at all.  It’s cause Shanny was just as likely to run as  he was to pass *on 3rd & 10

That point goes much deeper into the situational football thing. If we are up by 25 points in 4th quarter and it’s 3rd and 10, it’s a different situation than if we are down 17 points in 3rd quarter and it’s 3rd and 10.  In 2016 we just were firing on all cylinders jumping up so fast on teams it really had defenses playing scared and in their heels more than these other years. We made history being 7th in NFL history in points. We were balanced, could kill you on ground or in air, and Shanny was brilliant. 

Clearly, that doesn’t happen without a very good OL. But it also doesn’t happen without a very good QB, OC and versatile playmakers 

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8 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

We didn’t at all.  It’s cause Shanny was just as likely to run as  he was to pass *on 3rd & 10

He was def gonna pass on 3rd and 10 cause he wanted the first down but you also bring up a valid point about why the line didn’t get man handled like sone say. It’s because we could run the ball very well. Anytime you can do that you’re line is winking at the los 

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2 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

He was def gonna pass on 3rd and 10 cause he wanted the first down but you also bring up a valid point about why the line didn’t get man handled like sone say. It’s because we could run the ball very well. Anytime you can do that you’re line is winking at the los 

You neuter a defenses aggressiveness by running the football

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Just now, Falconsin2012 said:

You neuter a defenses aggressiveness by running the football

Exactly. Another reason Matt probably was hit more is because we used to get up so much on teams that they started blitzing us a lot. In blitz situations there’s gonna be more than you can block. It wasn’t just the line was weak. It’s game situations that come into play. Desperate teams trying to win a game throw the kitchen sink at you. And everybody thought Matt was a qb that folded when blitzed. He does not. He was blitzed a lot in 2016. 

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11 minutes ago, gazoo said:

That point goes much deeper into the situational football thing. If we are up by 25 points in 4th quarter and it’s 3rd and 10, it’s a different situation than if we are down 17 points in 3rd quarter and it’s 3rd and 10.  In 2016 we just were firing on all cylinders jumping up so fast on teams it really had defenses playing scared and in their heels more than these other years. We made history being 7th in NFL history in points. We were balanced, could kill you on ground or in air, and Shanny was brilliant. 

Clearly, that doesn’t happen without a very good OL. But it also doesn’t happen without a very good QB, OC and versatile playmakers 

That’s the point everybody has been making to you. EXACTLY the point!!! And teams didn’t play in their heels. The sent the kitchen sink at Matt. That HAD to. That’s another reason he was hit as much. Between bootlegs and blitzes he was vulnerable a lot. That’s why shanny ASKED him was he ok with running NAKED bootlegs because he was gonna be exposed to hits!!! They talked about this when Kyle first got here. It doesn’t mean the line is sh*t. Just means you’re exposed to being hit more. Now add blitzes to the equation from being down 2 or more scores trying to get back in the game. It bit us in the @ss in the SB because NE was desperate. They blitzed intensively in the second half and it paid off. 

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5 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

Exactly. Another reason Matt probably was hit more is because we used to get up so much on teams that they started blitzing us a lot. In blitz situations there’s gonna be more than you can block. It wasn’t just the line was weak. It’s game situations that come into play. Desperate teams trying to win a game throw the kitchen sink at you. And everybody thought Matt was a qb that folded when blitzed. He does not. He was blitzed a lot in 2016. 

Yup...

Shannahan also loved rollout and daggers concepts, along with deep crossing concepts that simply take time to unfold.  

Plays like this take time

Petersgraphic3042318edited.jpeg

 

Petersgraphic1042318edited.jpeg

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17 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Yup...

Shannahan also loved rollout and daggers concepts, along with deep crossing concepts that simply take time to unfold.  

Plays like this take time

Petersgraphic3042318edited.jpeg

 

Petersgraphic1042318edited.jpeg

I recall many years our posters calling for more rollouts and moving pockets to offset the pass rush.  I think this supports the play  brilliant play design around our very limited weakness, specifically to help keep defenses in their heels.

i think a reason this whole thread has been so controversial is that most everyone  is right , to some degree,  as to the reasons Matt got hit so much in both 2016 and 2018. It’s mostly a matter of degrees we are squabbling about. In fact, with so many good points made by others, I even concede the degree to which my main point about the pocket has shifted in my adversaries direction. But I still insist our interior OL had this weakness that led to way to many hits in 2016 , 2017 and 2018. 2016 was an outlier for many reasons.

It’s not as simple as one thing, it’s actually quite complex and we have cause and effect in this as well which is a  multi dimensional aspect.

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On 5/15/2019 at 5:27 PM, youngbloodz said:

This is a myth that bigger o linemen means better. You can have a big line and still suck. We going to a bigger o line cause we are going to run more inside zone. That's why

Just continues to blow my mind that the majority of the folks on this message board are so locked in on bigger equals better when there's no truth to that.

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31 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

That’s the point everybody has been making to you. EXACTLY the point!!! And teams didn’t play in their heels. The sent the kitchen sink at Matt. That HAD to. That’s another reason he was hit as much. Between bootlegs and blitzes he was vulnerable a lot. That’s why shanny ASKED him was he ok with running NAKED bootlegs because he was gonna be exposed to hits!!! They talked about this when Kyle first got here. It doesn’t mean the line is sh*t. Just means you’re exposed to being hit more. Now add blitzes to the equation from being down 2 or more scores trying to get back in the game. It bit us in the @ss in the SB because NE was desperate. They blitzed intensively in the second half and it paid off. 

I didn’t want to say it, but yeah

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14 minutes ago, gazoo said:

I recall many years our posters calling for more rollouts and moving pockets to offset the pass rush.  I think this supports the play  brilliant play design around our very limited weakness, specifically to help keep defenses in their heels.

i think a reason this whole thread has been so controversial is that most everyone  is right , to some degree,  as to the reasons Matt got hit so much in both 2016 and 2018. It’s mostly a matter of degrees we are squabbling about. In fact, with so many good points made by others, I even concede the degree to which my main point about the pocket has shifted in my adversaries direction. But I still insist our interior OL had this weakness that led to way to many hits in 2016 , 2017 and 2018. 2016 was an outlier for many reasons.

It’s not as simple as one thing, it’s actually quite complex and we have cause and effect in this as well which is a  multi dimensional aspect.

Great point.  Yes, everyone has s valid POV.  My contention has always been the resources dumped into the OL leave us vulnerable if injuries strike again to next years defense. 

You can mask an OL weakness with rollouts, horizontal passing, running the football and balanced playcalling.  You can’t mask lack of depth on defense

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22 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Just continues to blow my mind that the majority of the folks on this message board are so locked in on bigger equals better when there's no truth to that.

Please show me this straw man who claimed size is the only thing that matters in and OLs ability to anchor. I’ve not seen a single person argue that. My OP and several posts throughout this thread dives deep into this.

Mass is absolutely critical if you lack explosive  strength but have very strong raw functional power. Then the mass is critical in allowing you to anchor or blow defenders up. 

So a smaller guy like Lindstrom at 308lbs can be all pro level, anchor and blow defenders off the line IF he has really good explosive power used primarily at the point of attack. Lindstrom does have this as witnessed by his vertical and long jump. Bench press is misleading with a guy like him.

If you are smaller and only have raw functional power, or just average  strength, you can get blown off the LOS consistently.

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16 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Just continues to blow my mind that the majority of the folks on this message board are so locked in on bigger equals better when there's no truth to that.

Exactly. My preference is to have a bigger line in general. But they have to be good and not big and sorry

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54 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

That’s the point everybody has been making to you. EXACTLY the point!!! And teams didn’t play in their heels. The sent the kitchen sink at Matt. That HAD to. That’s another reason he was hit as much. Between bootlegs and blitzes he was vulnerable a lot. That’s why shanny ASKED him was he ok with running NAKED bootlegs because he was gonna be exposed to hits!!! They talked about this when Kyle first got here. It doesn’t mean the line is sh*t. Just means you’re exposed to being hit more. Now add blitzes to the equation from being down 2 or more scores trying to get back in the game. It bit us in the @ss in the SB because NE was desperate. They blitzed intensively in the second half and it paid off. 

Here is another argument that is a matter of degrees. Sure, defenses at times teed off on Matt in 2016, but Shanny made defenses pay dearly if they did it too much. 

To suggest in 2016 a defense could just tee off on Ryan all game suggests you think Shanny wasn’t very good at adjusting to that. Shanny was freaking brilliant, you simply couldn’t get away with anything like that for too long.

 

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17 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Please show me this straw man who claimed size is the only thing that matters in and OLs ability to anchor. I’ve not seen a single person argue that. My OP and several posts throughout this thread dives deep into this.

Mass is absolutely critical if you lack explosive  strength but have very strong raw functional power. Then the mass is critical in allowing you to anchor or blow defenders up. 

So a smaller guy like Lindstrom at 308lbs can be all pro level, anchor and blow defenders off the line IF he has really good explosive power used primarily at the point of attack. Lindstrom does have this as witnessed by his vertical and long jump. Bench press is misleading with a guy like him.

If you are smaller and only have raw functional power, or just average  strength, you can get blown off the LOS consistently.

I wasn't even talking about you or your OP. I was just agreeing with Youngblood that many folks make posts on this board (and have for years) claiming that we need to get bigger and how size was the Falcons number one issue.

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3 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

I wasn't even talking about you or your OP. I was just agreeing with Youngblood that many folks make posts on this board (and have for years) claiming that we need to get bigger and how size was the Falcons number one issue.

In that respect you are right, just size alone enamors many fans.

If we sign a 375lb DT who never played college ball, he would be the talk of training camp.  

Straight line Speed is another. While speed is awesome, it takes a heck of a lot more than that to be a good NFL player 

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5 minutes ago, gazoo said:

In that respect you are right, just size alone enamors many fans.

If we sign a 375lb DT who never played college ball, he would be the talk of training camp.  

Straight line Speed is another. While speed is awesome, it takes a heck of a lot more than that to be a good NFL player 

Yes it does

888477998.jpg

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Last year Ravens game was the worse OL play I have ever seen by the Falcons and one of the worse by any team at any level.  It was almost comical of how bad they played in that game.  On some plays Ryan literally could not even finish his 5 or 7 steps drop before the rushes got to him.

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1 hour ago, freefall said:

Last year Ravens game was the worse OL play I have ever seen by the Falcons and one of the worse by any team at any level.  It was almost comical of how bad they played in that game.  On some plays Ryan literally could not even finish his 5 or 7 steps drop before the rushes got to him.

That was embarrassing. In recent years we were accused of being soft on OL by defenses we played.

Our offensive line has been getting blown off the ball for years at POA, we desperately needed to get bigger, stronger and meaner to avoid them getting tossed around like rag dolls.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but Blank and TD  both said fixing the OL to better protect Matt Ryan was their #1 priority this offseason. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise given the signings of Carpenter, Brown, spending two 1st round draft picks on bigger, stronger, more talented OL.

My OP talks about the interior pass protection problem in particular, and we used our #16 pick in draft on OG, and signed 2 great Big hoss OGs  in FA. 

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On 5/18/2019 at 2:04 PM, gazoo said:

Please show me this straw man who claimed size is the only thing that matters in and OLs ability to anchor. I’ve not seen a single person argue that. My OP and several posts throughout this thread dives deep into this.

Mass is absolutely critical if you lack explosive  strength but have very strong raw functional power. Then the mass is critical in allowing you to anchor or blow defenders up. 

So a smaller guy like Lindstrom at 308lbs can be all pro level, anchor and blow defenders off the line IF he has really good explosive power used primarily at the point of attack. Lindstrom does have this as witnessed by his vertical and long jump. Bench press is misleading with a guy like him.

If you are smaller and only have raw functional power, or just average  strength, you can get blown off the LOS consistently.

Reread the thread title YOU made.  Reread the original post YOU made.  ALL you reference is sacks and correlated it to height and weight of linemen.  YOU did that.  YOU are the strawman and the fact that we are on page 20 of this awful thread and you are still crying and playing victim due to your own words, stupidity and false correlation is amazing to me.

I'm not going to post anymore because I am genuinely concerned for your mental state.  This whole thread, all your posts, they make no sense in the real world.  They are your opinions, which are based in ####### and false understanding of the sport.  You are so far off in your understanding of what is going on, and you continue to harp on these random narratives you think are correct but they have been proven over and over again by numerous posters, and you still keep at it.  It's actually impressive.

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1 minute ago, athell said:

Reread the thread title YOU made.  Reread the original post YOU made.  ALL you reference is sacks and correlated it to height and weight of linemen.  YOU did that.  YOU are the strawman and the fact that we are on page 20 of this awful thread and you are still crying and playing victim due to your own words, stupidity and false correlation is amazing to me.

I'm not going to post anymore because I am genuinely concerned for your mental state.  This whole thread, all your posts, they make no sense in the real world.  They are your opinions, which are based in ####### and false understanding of the sport.  You are so far off in your understanding of what is going on, and you continue to harp on these random narratives you think are correct but they have been proven over and over again by numerous posters, and you still keep at it.  It's actually impressive.

*yawn* 

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On 5/18/2019 at 4:11 PM, Falconsin2012 said:

You neuter a defenses aggressiveness by running the football

:worship:

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