gazoo

The Reason TD,DQ and Blank all said we had to get bigger on OL

499 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, gazoo said:

You do know Brees also drops back and throws a ton of deep balls, right?

In 2016, Brees actually had more 20+ yard completed passes in 2016 than Ryan did, yet Brees still was hit 36 times less that season.

In 2017, Brees had more 20+ yard completed passes than Ryan did in 2016 and was sacked only 20 times, hit only 58 times. That’s 50 less QB hits than Ryan took in 2016.

Sure, some of the hits can be blamed on scheme, but all you had to do was watch the games to see our OL getting shoved around and the Saints OL holding a good strong pocket for Brees for more often.

Why are you bolding some of your message?

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38 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

@gazoo

Kyle Shannahan has the longest wide receiver route tree in professional football.  That’s why Ryan was sacked in 2016.

If you think 2018 OL was better, we can’t have a serious discussion.

This. Numbers do lie. We threw deep all **** day. 

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30 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Sure, being one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL in 2016 and 2018 protecting the QB has nothing to do with it. 

Matter of fact, when Blank said we had to get bigger on OL so Ryan could have a pocket to step up into, he was trying to trick people. 

Yes bigger means better lol. Zach Martin must be horrible. He weighs 315 lbs. Brown and Carpenter both are better cause they weigh more lol. Ignorance 

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2 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

Yes bigger means better lol. Zach Martin must be horrible. He weighs 315 lbs. Brown and Carpenter both are better cause they weigh more lol. Ignorance 

Andre the Giant would clearly be All Pro

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34 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

So let me get this straight... You told us ALL how great Levitre was gonna be and he was super great just like you said but then our oline was bad in '16? Wut?

Just like how he said Jamal Anderson would be great lol. This guy knows nothing 

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5 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Why are you bolding some of your message?

He is making it easy for the rest of us to see his ignorance.  I actually appreciate that.  My eyes do as well.

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8 minutes ago, Dem Birds said:

This. Numbers do lie. We threw deep all **** day. 

And Brees didn’t? Why was our QB hit virtually twice as much as Brees in 2016 and 2017 yet Brees actually had more 20+ yard completions those years?

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5 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Andre the Giant would clearly be All Pro

I’m winning when you feel you have to start arguing with straw men. 

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27 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

This is part of it but one thing the OP is skimming right over; which lets your QB get hit more is:

Play action; especially from under C...also Designed bootlegs with half field looks (putting Matt with a defender closing to make a hit in open field)

All the while also having a vertical WCO attack by Shanny which in general took longer for routes to develop because he liked the big play

IN CONTRAST: A run oriented offense or a short-mid pass game system by contrast will make those “better looking” pass blocking lines only appear better in these metrics.

2018 was bad because it couldn’t run the ball. 2016 OL all day over that trash unit last year. It was held meagerly together by a franchise LT and stud C. We just scrubbed every bit of the rest, including depth.

Now, if that 2018 OL could’ve ran the ball maybe it would’ve earned itself a chance to look better at pass blocking....but because it couldn’t run the ball too many games of the opposing DL able to ignore a run lane and just go for Ryan happened. Blitz city if it so desired.

I don’t see the purpose in revising history on our 2016 OL??

Issue is we couldn’t replace Levitre when hurt last 2 years; nor Chester AT ALL adequately since he retired, all of that was apparent in 2017 and then RS regression sealed the fate of the OL overturn need once the OG failure reared it’s head a 2nd straight year.

If 2016 was so bad why didn’t we overturn the OL immediately? Levitre was even hoped to come back last year since the offense fell off a cliff in 2017 when he got hurt in Vikings game.

Seems more like all the OL moves is to fix the run game; which we just haven’t had with the OGs + RS failing to perform anywhere close to that beautiful 2016 unit.

Get a real NFL OC and run game coordinator to pay attention to the details weekly. Hello Dirk and Mike.

Scheme was always gonna get Matt hit more when you play layers like Kyle would call it.

Issue is efficiency and making any hits he takes worth it.

Sark tried to get that in the pass game last year with adding Ridley, but we lost Free and couldn’t run the ball. That was Sark’s Undoing. Not knowing how to do both well and stay ahead of the opposing defense. It’s also why Kyle thought he was able to outsmart BB in SB51 to a fault.

The slow developing routes are definitely part of it.  I was getting frustrated over it in 2015 when the offense looked out of synch.  Thought we needed to shorten those routes.  Then we went gangbusters in 2016 making me look like an idiot...which I thoroughly enjoyed.

But, historically, the Falcons haven't had as much time for long developing pass plays as some other teams.  The Saints have done a fantastic job of having a strong inner 3 (G C G) for most of Brees career (back before he became a dink dunker).  That has made a huge difference for Brees and the Saints.  The Falcons haven't done a good job of that in general, and it's made Ryan have to make more cockeyed throws than he should.  Even in 2016 the interior OL had trouble holding up because Chester wasn't a good pass blocker.

I'm not trying to litigate whether the 2016 line was good or not...seems like there's a bunch of people dug in on that.  My only point is simply...we haven't had a good interior pass protecting line for most of the last decade.  To me the interior is where it's at on all that...rather have good OG's than OT's if it came down to it, and we've always tried to duct tape the OG situation.

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2 minutes ago, gazoo said:

I’m winning when you feel you have to start arguing with straw men. 

I see why you support who you do. He says he is winning at irrelevant stuff too when in fact he is too ignorant to realize he is losing by creating fake news. Sounds familiar?

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5 minutes ago, gazoo said:

And Brees didn’t? Why was our QB hit virtually twice as much as Brees in 2016 and 2017 yet Brees actually had more 20+ yard completions those years?

The strip sack in the SB should tell you why

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5 minutes ago, gazoo said:

And Brees didn’t? Why was our QB hit virtually twice as much as Brees in 2016 and 2017 yet Brees actually had more 20+ yard completions those years?

Again.  You are misconstruing 20+ yard completions with throwing downfield.  Throwing a 3 yard screen to Kamara who takes it for 21 yards qualifies for your BS stat and is no way indicative of what you think it is.

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9 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

Yes bigger means better lol. Zach Martin must be horrible. He weighs 315 lbs. Brown and Carpenter both are better cause they weigh more lol. Ignorance 

Who said size is only thing that matters with OL? 

Oh, this guy.....

215px-The_Wizard_of_Oz_Ray_Bolger_1939.j

 

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Just now, youngbloodz said:

I see why you support who you do. He says he is winning at irrelevant stuff too when in fact he is too ignorant to realize he is losing by creating fake news. Sounds familiar?

Ouch...politics has entered the fight.  Someone mention religion and this thread may go viral

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Just now, Falconsin2012 said:

Ouch...politics has entered the fight.  Someone mention religion and this thread may go viral

Lol it's just gazoo thinks he is a prophet on all things especially football. And clearly he doesn't understand bigger doesn't mean better

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1 minute ago, gazoo said:

Who said size is only thing that matters with OL? 

Oh, this guy.....

215px-The_Wizard_of_Oz_Ray_Bolger_1939.j

 

Says the guy who created a thread containing the words "we had to get bigger on OL" and who literally typed the words " In 2016 Our OGs were both older (33 years old and 31 years old) both 303lbs and RT Shraeder was only 300lbs. We replaced them with a 340lb OG, a 321lb OG, and drafted a 327lb RT and an Uber talented 308Lb OG who excels in pass protection." containing nothing but metrics about size.

You are nutty man.

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6 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

The slow developing routes are definitely part of it.  I was getting frustrated over it in 2015 when the offense looked out of synch.  Thought we needed to shorten those routes.  Then we went gangbusters in 2016 making me look like an idiot...which I thoroughly enjoyed.

But, historically, the Falcons haven't had as much time for long developing pass plays as some other teams.  The Saints have done a fantastic job of having a strong inner 3 (G C G) for most of Brees career (back before he became a dink dunker).  That has made a huge difference for Brees and the Saints.  The Falcons haven't done a good job of that in general, and it's made Ryan have to make more cockeyed throws than he should.  Even in 2016 the interior OL had trouble holding up because Chester wasn't a good pass blocker.

I'm not trying to litigate whether the 2016 line was good or not...seems like there's a bunch of people dug in on that.  My only point is simply...we haven't had a good interior pass protecting line for most of the last decade.  To me the interior is where it's at on all that...rather have good OG's than OT's if it came down to it, and we've always tried to duct tape the OG situation.

My position is the 2016 line was extremely effective, but it had a weakness that many refuse to acknowledge. Sure, the deep drops contributed to some of the additional sacks and hits, but Drew Brees had plenty of time most snaps to sit back and throw deep balls without anyone in his face.

I know many Falcon fans saw what I did, the collapsing pocket that occurred often in obvious passing situations. Our OL Just were built to hold the LOS, anchor and provide a safe pocket for Ryan to step up into. Our OL would get shoved back off the LOS at the snap, creating rushing lanes for blitzes and stunts, and making it hard for Ryan to buy a little time.

Also, a common compliant since we implemented th ZBS is short yardage. Our OL getting shoved around by bigger, stronger DTs in short yardage. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, athell said:

Says the guy who created a thread containing the words "we had to get bigger on OL" and who literally typed the words " In 2016 Our OGs were both older (33 years old and 31 years old) both 303lbs and RT Shraeder was only 300lbs. We replaced them with a 340lb OG, a 321lb OG, and drafted a 327lb RT and an Uber talented 308Lb OG who excels in pass protection." containing nothing but metrics about size.

You are nutty man.

He is talking in circles man and contradicting his own argument in this thread

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10 minutes ago, gazoo said:

You do know Brees also drops back and throws a ton of deep balls, right?

In 2016, Brees actually had more 20+ yard completed passes in 2016 than Ryan did, yet Brees still was hit 36 times less that season.

Sure, some of the hits can be blamed on scheme, but all you had to do was watch the games to see our OL getting shoved around and the Saints OL holding a good strong pocket for Brees for more often.

Maybe the point you can focus on is Zone system?

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2016/all

2016 Brees was 2nd in the least amount of time to throw of all QBs except Alex Smith.

So, despite attempting about 139 more passes than Ryan, Brees is hit less.

Part of this is we NEED the run game to sell playaction like we ran in 2016.

Your post is incomplete because our run game was a bit better than the Saints in 2016.

Check out the air yards metric. Brees needed less time.

Here is another indicator of why Saints were more built to pass block and more to the point you should hone in on...But I don’t see a reason to tear down the 2016 unit because that should’ve actually won a SB and we do if the coach calls the right plays and or OL doesn’t get hurt etc. :shrug:

Honestly, Kyle was just better than Sark and we gotta let that have its day. 

HOWEVER- That said...NOs OL was a different unit type all together and a bit more pass blocking oriented as a result.

Kyle PREFERRED ZBS for his run game. Issue is Sark wasn’t to same level of detail at installing, coaching, and staying on top of what we needed for that.

Losing Free, Levitre, Chester; with the regressed RS definitely hurt our run game...

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2 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

He is talking in circles man and contradicting his own argument in this thread

Welcome to a gazoo thread lol

Especially love when he brushes over everyone telling and showing him how wrong he is to go right back to his same 3 talking points that aren't true.

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13 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

The slow developing routes are definitely part of it.  I was getting frustrated over it in 2015 when the offense looked out of synch.  Thought we needed to shorten those routes.  Then we went gangbusters in 2016 making me look like an idiot...which I thoroughly enjoyed.

But, historically, the Falcons haven't had as much time for long developing pass plays as some other teams.  The Saints have done a fantastic job of having a strong inner 3 (G C G) for most of Brees career (back before he became a dink dunker).  That has made a huge difference for Brees and the Saints.  The Falcons haven't done a good job of that in general, and it's made Ryan have to make more cockeyed throws than he should.  Even in 2016 the interior OL had trouble holding up because Chester wasn't a good pass blocker.

I'm not trying to litigate whether the 2016 line was good or not...seems like there's a bunch of people dug in on that.  My only point is simply...we haven't had a good interior pass protecting line for most of the last decade.  To me the interior is where it's at on all that...rather have good OG's than OT's if it came down to it, and we've always tried to duct tape the OG situation.

This is a solid post. And it makes a lot of sense. Saints have definitely invested in the OG. But I wonder how they will do without Unger now. Cause he helped those two guards out a lot

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Here is a quote from Balnk

“This is my 19th year as an owner and one of the things I’ve learned is that Matt [Ryan] plays much better vertically than horizontally,” Blank told the Falcons website. 

“I don’t think we’re complete in terms of the offensive line. I think it’ll be an area of great scrutiny and activity during the draft.”

18 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Maybe the point you can focus on is Zone system?

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2016/all

2016 Brees was 2nd in the least amount of time to throw of all QBs except Alex Smith.

So, despite attempting about 139 more passes than Ryan, Brees is hit less.

Part of this is we NEED the run game to sell playaction like we ran in 2016.

Your post is incomplete because our run game was a bit better than the Saints in 2016.

Check out the air yards metric. Brees needed less time.

Here is another indicator of why Saints were more built to pass block and more to the point you should hone in on...But I don’t see a reason to tear down the 2016 unit because that should’ve actually won a SB and we do if the coach calls the right plays and or OL doesn’t get hurt etc. :shrug:

Honestly, Kyle was just better than Sark and we gotta let that have its day. 

HOWEVER- That said...NOs OL was a different unit type all together and a bit more pass blocking oriented as a result.

Kyle PREFERRED ZBS for his run game. Issue is Sark wasn’t to same level of detail at installing, coaching, and staying on top of what we needed for that.

Losing Free, Levitre, Chester; with the regressed RS definitely hurt our run game...

For pocket QBs, it matters where that pressure is coming from. It matters a lot.

OLs of Brees and  Brady have most years made sure to have good strong interior OL who can anchor at point of attack and hold a pocket. 

I keep saying, my biggest issue here is Ryan having the interior of his OL collapse in on his feet. You do not see that happening to Brees or Brady hardly ever. If heat is coming off the edges, even if it’s immediate heat, Brady and Brees  just casually take. step forward and dump the ball off. 

Ryan, without a clean pocket to step into, often has to move laterally when pressure comes and it creates far more QB hits and sacks this way. 

 

 

 

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