gazoo

The Reason TD,DQ and Blank all said we had to get bigger on OL

499 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, gazoo said:

Which QB holds ball longer on same passing play on 3rd and 10  that is called?

Quaterback A- Drops back, edge pressure starts coming, steps up and delivers strike untouched for  a first down 12 yards downfield.

Quarterback B- has a defender with a full head of steam coming directly at him shooting A gap immediately after the snap, has to move laterally to stop from getting killed, avoids a drive killing sack, escapes pocket and makes a 12 yard completion out of a broken play.

hyperbole-o-everywhere-imgflip-com-2016-

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20 hours ago, runshoot said:

Regardless of how many times Matt got hit. We scored a lot. Everyone remembers a jet sweep on the goal line and hated it. Everyone remembers the failure to score from the 7 yard line. But then everyone conveniently forgets we were 64% scoring in the redzone. People forget we were 10th in scoring and that was with 6 different OGs , 2 RTs, and no pro bowl RB. Our Offense was very good at putting up points and keeping us in games.

The offense wasn't just good last year, it was good even when compared to previous years and NFL averages. It is important to understand how 2018 was a different year for scoring in the NFL. 3 teams scored over 500 pts in 2018. That hasn't happened before. It was such an aberration, we need to look at what a normal offensive scoring season looks like to put our offensive output into perspective.

2018 offensive scoring
KC 565,LAR 527,NO 504,NE 436 in order and then at 10th ATL with 414pts.

So for 2018, 415 points makes us ranked 10th. But in 2017 that same total (414) would have been good for 5th! In 2016 it would have been 7th. In 2014 and 2015 it would have been 8th. You see, we scored well. We've always scored well with a Matt Ryan team. Even with what this thread is calling bad OLines, we scored. Remember our guard problem, our RT problem, our missing pro bowl RB? Something doesn't add up.

That only tells half the story in 2018 because our defense gave up 423 points 8th worst in the league. In 2017 our D gave up 315 points, 8th best ranking. That should end the argument right there. For those of you playing at home, we went into the playoffs in '17 and won and then nearly won in PHI with an offense that was 15th but a defense that was 8th in scoring allowed. Balance! Our Defense performed.

Here is the point if you haven't caught on. Even with a garbage Oline we were 64% redzone scoring and 10th in total points. We lost 4 games by 6 points or less. We blew 4 4th quarter leads. The defense let this team down in a massive way. Yes the injuries hampered this team not only from a talent level but from a coaching level as well. Bad players stayed on the field too long such as Duke and Richards. There was little to no depth on the defense.  The defense though, even when Grady and Debo came back, still gave up a 200 yard rushing game and had 3 other games over 120 yards rushing avg.

To the OP, this offseason we are took our offense which is already doing well and we are now trying to red line the tachometer to squeeze more out of it. In my opinion we really should have just focused on the defense to bring balance to the team. DQ's hubris makes him think he can "fix" this defense with players coming off season ending injuries and no pass rush. KC and LA are the perfect examples of what happens in the playoffs when you try to go big offense and your defense fails you. KC gave up the 9th most points and LA 13th. There sits NE, with 26th least points given up and another championship.

Offense and guards and tackles were not the main issue. Sark was not the main issue. It was the defense. Did the guards need upgrading, YES. Funny how this offense still clicked along with Sark being so hated, 6 starting OGs, 2 starting RTs and missing our pro bowl RB. This offseason we brought in 4 new OL starters, 2 new RBs, a plethora of new TEs and a new WR. Meanwhile, The defense got zero new starters and only a prayer that the injured players recover and are ready and not tentative when playing.

 

Control Print

Saving to rebut any and all statements about the offense deserving 2 first round picks while the defense waited until round 4

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21 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Control Print

Saving to rebut any and all statements about the offense deserving 2 first round picks while the defense waited until round 4

  I want to be in that debate , I believe getting those first two picks will take us to the playoffs and by then we may be very hard to stop. WE have waited to long already to fix one of the most important positions of any successful team. If you end up being right , I will gladly say I was wrong and you were right ,, If we just make the playoffs would be a success by fixing the OL. and getting our D# in latter rounds. It's not what round you get a player,, it's how good is that player going to be that is picked in latter rounds.. We took the D# players in the middle of this Draft.. I think they will be very good players and fill the most needful places our D# lacked.  This team is more ready to be great this year than any year that I know of.Never been this much talent on any other Falcon Team.. :rain:

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53 minutes ago, Draftnut57 said:

True,, But my point would be,,  Now, our OL will be bigger and better.. Our first two picks in this draft was  in the First Round of one of the Strongest drafts in History ...  Add that to our best 3 OL which IMO are some of the best OL that the Falcons have ever had.... and we have I'd say the best OL ever as a whole in the history of this team.  Big Statement , But show me one better than what we have now? From one end to the other ?? No way can anybody find a Falcon OL that has  more talent than this OL this year.. and one of the many reasons why I think we will be there at the end of the season... As long as Ryan stays healthy. Plus to have our Running Game improved greatly with the addition of Ollison at 6-1, 232lbs, Another piece to this puzzle that finishes up a great need to make this team a great team.

One of Strongest drafts in history? 

Yeah, that’s a very big statement. 

 

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1 hour ago, Vandy said:

And to your earlier point, Both guys were > 6’5” and weighed north of 320...I bet Lamar after a midnight KFC run weighed close to 350...

Lol exactly. KFC is good too 

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43 minutes ago, Draftnut57 said:

  I want to be in that debate , I believe getting those first two picks will take us to the playoffs and by then we may be very hard to stop. WE have waited to long already to fix one of the most important positions of any successful team. If you end up being right , I will gladly say I was wrong and you were right ,, If we just make the playoffs would be a success by fixing the OL. and getting our D# in latter rounds. It's not what round you get a player,, it's how good is that player going to be that is picked in latter rounds.. We took the D# players in the middle of this Draft.. I think they will be very good players and fill the most needful places our D# lacked.  This team is more ready to be great this year than any year that I know of.Never been this much talent on any other Falcon Team.. :rain:

I’m not saying those picks won’t be quality players.  What I’m saying is the OL has never been ignored. Last year we had the 3rd most expensive line ever...and this year we are way more expensive

Our OL is occupying 51 million of the CAP while our entire Defense gets just 78 million.  No roster balance

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Just now, Falconsin2012 said:

I’m not saying those picks won’t be quality players.  What I’m saying is the OL has never been ignored. Last year we had the 3rd most expensive line ever...and this year we are way more expensive

Our OL is occupying 51 million of the CAP while our entire Defense gets just 78 million.  No roster balance

Cap space is because of neglecting OL in top 2 rounds for years and drafting defense. Falcons will be forced to draft Offense if the Defensive players get paid. The OL last years was ignored at both OG positions with back up level players who needed to be scrubbed. 

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6 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Cap space is because of neglecting OL in top 2 rounds for years and drafting defense. Falcons will be forced to draft Offense if the Defensive players get paid. The OL last years was ignored at both OG positions with back up level players who needed to be scrubbed. 

Picking in the 1st two rounds isn’t essential.  Here is the average draft spot for All Pros

Average Pick
Defensive Line — 40.1
Linebacker — 43.8
Defense — 43.9
Quarterback — 46.3
Defensive Back — 47.5
Running Back — 49.2
Tight End — 49.5
Overall — 52.7
Offensive Line — 58.7
Offense — 62.4
Wide Receiver — 97.0

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3 hours ago, Draftnut57 said:

Great post,, thanks,,  The one thing on this chart that sticks out..  Last year Ryan was hit 42 times and Brady only 21 times ,,  Ryan was hit twice as much as Brady,,  This is why we went with the OL with our first 2 picks.. Wise and this move will help this team more than any other thing we have done this off season ,, Other than getting rid of Sark ...That is going to help us more than any move we havemade. 

Thanks DraftNut!

i am noticing a trend on this thread. Those who have a clear understanding of my OP also understand the alarming number of vicious hits Ryan has been taking simply cannot continue. They will not just shorten his career, but the more hits the bigger the chance he is on IR at some point in season.

Some dismiss this by pointing to the past, but we’ve been EXTREMELY lucky not to lose him to IR in past seasons. That luck could run out anytime and our season is over the moment it happens.

You see some pointing to stats while seemingly oblivious to the threat the collapsing pocket, forcing Ryan to escape it or get killed or sacked way more than he already has been, has posed. 

In fact, those disagreeing with my post won’t even address the collapsing pocket and what effect that has on putting Ryan in harms way. They just claim he holds ball too long or its because he throws deep. They present an either, or false choice. The collapsing pocket is a big part of the 106 hits he took in 2016 and 108 hits he took in 2018. Many of those hits, some of the most visions of them,  came from outside the pocket. And if he didn’t escape the collapsing pocket, the sacks would be up in the 60s or 70s.

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3 hours ago, Draftnut57 said:

Great post,, thanks,,  The one thing on this chart that sticks out..  Last year Ryan was hit 42 times and Brady only 21 times ,,  Ryan was hit twice as much as Brady,,  This is why we went with the OL with our first 2 picks.. Wise and this move will help this team more than any other thing we have done this off season ,, Other than getting rid of Sark ...That is going to help us more than any move we havemade. 

Ryan holds the ball longer than Brady. That's why he gets hit more.

 

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gazoo is like that one car salesman that you know has no clue what he is talking about and has no business selling cars.

gaz : So, I see you are interested in this used 2015 Ford Explorer?

customer : I am, but the carfax is concerning to me.  Says it's been in some accidents...

gaz : Have you seen the cupholders?

customer : ............., wha...what about the accidents?  I want to know more about the body damage.  Says there was extensive damage to the frame and axles.

gaz : Look at this spot for your sunglasses!

customer : Ok, yeah, I get it...but let's focus on the main point here...why are these reports on the history and what exactly was the damage?

gaz : Let's not focus on that, let's talk about these CUPHOLDERS!  UP TO 40 OUNCES!

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Isn’t this amazing how some fans don’t realize that if a majority of times a QB gets pressured from edges, and can step up in a clean pocket and dump ball off like Brees abs Brady, he gets rid off ball much faster than a QB like Ryan who is far more frequently immediately pressured from a collapsing pocket, gets flushed out being chased by defenders and still makes to play from outside the pocket?

Only foolish fans would then blame the QB who had no choice but to escape the crumbling pocket for “holding the ball too long” then blaming QB for all the extra hits he takes outside the pocket due to a chronic collapsing pocket.

These fools don’t know the difference between cause and effect and blame Ryan for the effect his collapsing pocket causes

Now. Does Ryan hold the ball too long sometimes, sure. But to claim that’s why he took 108 hits last year and Brees only took 70 is ignorant.

 

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5 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Isn’t this amazing how some fans don’t realize that if a majority of times a QB gets pressured from edges, and can step up in a clean pocket and dump ball off like Brees abs Brady, he gets rid off ball much faster than a QB like Ryan who is far more frequently immediately pressured from a collapsing pocket, gets flushed out being chased by defenders and still makes to play from outside the pocket?

Only foolish fans would then blame the QB who had no choice but to escape the crumbling pocket for “holding the ball too long” then blaming QB for all the hits he takes due to a chronic collapsing pocket.

These fools don’t know the difference between cause and effect and blame Ryan for the effect his collapsing pocket causes

 

And you think only 1st/2nd round talent or a 50 mill CAP hit on the OL is the solution.

Since 2015 there have been a grand total of 10 OL playing in the SB who were picked in the 1st two rounds.  3 of the 10 were ours from 2016.

And now we have 5 starters along the OL picked in the 1st round.  Hope we score 32 points a game.  

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4 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

And you think only 1st/2nd round talent or a 50 mill CAP hit on the OL is the solution.

Since 2015 there have been a grand total of 10 OL playing in the SB who were picked in the 1st two rounds.  3 of the 10 were ours from 2016.

And now we have 5 starters along the OL picked in the 1st round.  Hope we score 32 points a game.  

Totally different argument. I’m talking about one of the main reasons why he has been taking an extraordinary number of vicious hits outside the pocket since we switched to ZBS and the dire need to get him bigger, stronger, OL who are strong enough to anchor in pass protection and provide the kind of pass protection pocket that Brees and Brady have had most of their careers. 

The first step is to admit you have a problem and where that problem exists , not to downplay it or misplace blame so you can minimize the problem or shoot down solutions 

 

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1 hour ago, gazoo said:

Totally different argument. I’m talking about one of the main reasons why he has been taking an extraordinary number of vicious hits outside the pocket since we switched to ZBS and the dire need to get him bigger, stronger, OL who are strong enough to anchor in pass protection and provide the kind of pass protection pocket that Brees and Brady have had most of their careers. 

The first step is to admit you have a problem and where that problem exists , not to downplay it or misplace blame so you can minimize the problem or shoot down solutions 

 

So if I go look back at your comments from when Brown & Carpenter were signed, I’m going to see posts where you say we aren’t good enough with these signings and need to invest 1st, 2nd and waste 3rd to grab two  more OL’men

Or is it possible you’re just being a revisionist Homer?

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9 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Totally different argument. I’m talking about one of the main reasons why he has been taking an extraordinary number of vicious hits outside the pocket since we switched to ZBS and the dire need to get him bigger, stronger, OL who are strong enough to anchor in pass protection and provide the kind of pass protection pocket that Brees and Brady have had most of their careers. 

The first step is to admit you have a problem and where that problem exists , not to downplay it or misplace blame so you can minimize the problem or shoot down solutions 

 

Im happy with the 2 guys we drafted. I think we will have a great offense line. In that same sentence I say we will lose 7 to 8 games because we completely neglected our defense. 

Lets revisit this thread in January, and see how well our D did with its "amazing savior vet minimum DT from New Orleans, who turns water into wine and crap Dlines into amazeballs".

 

 

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27 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Totally different argument. I’m talking about one of the main reasons why he has been taking an extraordinary number of vicious hits outside the pocket since we switched to ZBS and the dire need to get him bigger, stronger, OL who are strong enough to anchor in pass protection and provide the kind of pass protection pocket that Brees and Brady have had most of their careers. 

The first step is to admit you have a problem and where that problem exists , not to downplay it or misplace blame so you can minimize the problem or shoot down solutions 

 

Show me these "vicious hits".  So so dramatic.

Your insistence that bigger = better is absolutely absurd.  Your entire argument is based on a fallacy.

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27 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Totally different argument. I’m talking about one of the main reasons why he has been taking an extraordinary number of vicious hits outside the pocket since we switched to ZBS and the dire need to get him bigger, stronger, OL who are strong enough to anchor in pass protection and provide the kind of pass protection pocket that Brees and Brady have had most of their careers. 

The first step is to admit you have a problem and where that problem exists , not to downplay it or misplace blame so you can minimize the problem or shoot down solutions 

 

Every qb takes vicious hits every now and then. But Matt hasn’t taken the vicious hits you’re talking about since 2013 and 14. Plus he gets rid of the ball so quickly that it’s hard to get to him. Cam Jordan has said this. So the vicious hits is a bit much. He takes as many hard hits as any top qb. I wouldn’t say he takes more vicious hits than any of them. Matt is too smart to set himself up or leave himself open for vicious hits. And some of the vicious hits were probably self induced because he left the pocket trying to make a play down field and got hit releasing the ball. There’s probably only 2/3 hits over the last few years that I would categorize as vicious.  

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The main reason they wanted to get bigger up front is to help the running game when we really need it to get those tough yards. Of course protecting Matt is first and foremost so you kill 2 birds with one stone if you protect Matt while getting more stout in the run by adding power to the inside/outside zone running game. It’s more to the line than just protecting Matt. And being that so much of what we do is off playaction and the way we couldn’t run the ball last year the evidence is right in your face. Get better at protecting Matt while getting stringer in the run game. 

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4 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

The main reason they wanted to get bigger up front is to help the running game when we really need it to get those tough yards. Of course protecting Matt is first and foremost so you kill 2 birds with one stone if you protect Matt while getting more stout in the run by adding power to the inside/outside zone running game. It’s more to the line than just protecting Matt. And being that so much of what we do is off playaction and the way we couldn’t run the ball last year the evidence is right in your face. Get better at protecting Matt while getting stringer in the run game. 

Question becomes, if they were 2" shorter and 10lb lighter, would they still have been drafted?  ie were they drafted because of their size alone?  Or were they drafted for their skillset?

(probably both, but if you had to pick ONE to go with...ability over size every day)

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12 minutes ago, athell said:

Question becomes, if they were 2" shorter and 10lb lighter, would they still have been drafted?  ie were they drafted because of their size alone?  Or were they drafted for their skillset?

(probably both, but if you had to pick ONE to go with...ability over size every day)

It’s always about ability first. We didn’t bring in the players just for size like gazoo is insinuating. The size part came for late game when you just need to lean on tired dlinemen and close out the game. 300 pounders leaning on you in the 4th qtr is ruff lol. 

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Just now, TheFatboi said:

It’s always about ability first. The size part came for late game when you just need to lean on tired dlinemen and close out the game. 300 pounders leaning on you in the 4th qtr is ruff lol. 

Bingo

/thread

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Size doesn’t equal better. More smaller backs lead the nfl in rushing historically than bigger backs. John Randall is a small DT. Warren Sapp is a small DT. I like big OL like the next man but if he’s soft as tissue it won’t matter. You STILL have to have ability to move that 320 pound body. Aaron Donald wrecks 300 pounders all day. Speed cannot be measured. Speed beats size all day everyday but if you have a big man with size AND speed, with good technique NOW you’re working with something. So it ain’t just about size. 

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