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Posted (edited)

Im going through some of the threads and noticing trend that many agree that Rocky was terrible last year and Isaiah Oliver will be able to easily replace what he did.

I don't share the same confidence in him yet. He made improvements over the course of the season but the player I thought we were getting in a second round pick versus the project that we ended up with is a bit worrisome.

Lets be clear, he has all the physical tools that Quinn is professed to love in an outside corner. He just didn't seem to be mentally there yet, slow to diagnose even the simplest route combinations. Im not ready to claim he is a bust, but Im not as sold on him as many here are. 

His development will be crucial to the performance of our defense this year as I'm sure the expectation is for him to be a reliable starter.

I want to get other peoples opinions on the kid, and if you are at all concerned that we nabbed 2 more CBs in the draft, or do you feel confident that he is ready to challenge elite outside receivers on a week to week basis ?

-Thoughts

Edited by LightningDawg58

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9 minutes ago, LightningDawg58 said:

Im going through some of the threads and noticing trend that many agree that Rocky was terrible last year and Isaiah Oliver will be able to easily replace what he did.

I don't share the same confidence in him yet. He made improvements over the course of the season but the player I thought we were getting in a second round pick versus the project that we ended up with is a bit worrisome.

Lets be clear, he has all the physical tools that Quinn is professed to love in an outside corner. He just didn't seem to be mentally there yet, slow to diagnose even the simplest route combinations. Im not ready to claim he is a bust, but Im not as sold on him as many here are. 

His development will be crucial to the performance of our defense this year as I'm sure the expectation is for him to be a reliable starter.

I want to get other peoples opinions on the kid, and if you are at all concerned that we nabbed 2 more CBs in the draft, or do you feel confident that he is ready to challenge elite outside receivers on a week to week basis ?

-Thoughts

Give us an example of him being slow to recognize simple routes?

Why is he a project?

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Posted (edited)

We drafted 2 Cbs because we need depth at the position. Tru, Oliver and Kazee are the starters but we have nothing behind them except Wreh-Wilson who only plays boundary. Miller will be a backup outside to provide depth there and Sheffield can play nickel if we need to change something up or anyone gets hurt. Sheffield will backup Miller at boundary. Trufant could be let go after this season so we need to develop someone on the outside and it seems like Quinn finally has his tall C3 corners in Oliver and Miller and then quick guys inside like Kazee and Sheffield. 

Also, I really like Oliver's skill set and though he will have his growing pains the potential is there and if he can hold it down by December heading toward the playoffs we will be looking good!

Edited by mtldirtybird

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Called it at the beginning of the offseason that we were going to lose both Poole and Alford. We are also going to lose Trufant next season. Leaving Oliver and possibly a rookie CB to start next season. I’m not too confident in that tandem. This is one of the reasons why I wanted Greedy. OL was definitely a huge need regardless and I doubt any of the CBs in this draft would have started over either Tru or Oliver this season. Oliver is still raw but he shows promise. 

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1 hour ago, LightningDawg58 said:

I want to get other peoples opinions on the kid, and if you are at all concerned that we nabbed 2 more CBs in the draft, or do you feel confident that he is ready to challenge elite outside receivers on a week to week basis ?

-Thoughts

I liked what I saw in Oliver but he did make technical mistakes.  His coverage was tight and he makes plays on the ball.  I'd like to see him get his head around more and I'd like to see more physicality.  I don't know if he will be great or not but he's CB2 so we better hope so.  As far as the draft, we needed to get some more bodies in that group and I don't think Sheffield or Miller look as good in coverage as Oliver based on the film I've watched.

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Trial by fire. This is what Smith never did and what held us back. DQ ain’t afraid. Oliver gonna take his lumps and either become very good (like most of our picks) or suck and need to be replaced (like Duke). 

This is my preferred method of development. 

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18 minutes ago, Monolith2001 said:

I liked what I saw in Oliver but he did make technical mistakes.  His coverage was tight and he makes plays on the ball.  I'd like to see him get his head around more and I'd like to see more physicality.  I don't know if he will be great or not but he's CB2 so we better hope so.  As far as the draft, we needed to get some more bodies in that group and I don't think Sheffield or Miller look as good in coverage as Oliver based on the film I've watched.

Do we have Oliver season highlights? All I can ever remember is his off coverage that lost us the Cincy game. I hope he makes the jump year two but yea I hadn't seen much that leads me to feel as confident as others, yet.. 

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3 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

He can’t be worse than what Alford was last year. Oliver was decent and got beat and Rookie mistakes. But then again AJ Green makes every one silly. 

He was better.

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1 hour ago, Yo_Lover said:

Give us an example of him being slow to recognize simple routes?

Why is he a project?

Simple route COMBINATIONS  was the phrase I used. I actually think he does very well being sticky in man coverage, when defending against a singular route. Where I was referencing, the biggest example which Im sure you will rebuttal as being the only example, was being caught in between two patterns and ultimately getting beat over the top against the Bengals to lose the game. The offense can still manipulate him by running multiple route in his zones and him not having the savvy to diagnose what they want to do to him and use that to his advantage. In essence, he was getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar a lot.

The term project holds different weight depending on context. He was touted as a ready to play guy. He was called a steal, that dominated in college and had a high ceiling. What turned out was that he needed a lot more coaching and development in playing zone coverage, proper technique, turning his head, etc....

Im not knocking a rookie that needs time to adjust. Im opining on a guy that was supposed to be pretty good out of the gate who needed much more development to be on the field. This was true for him all through camp, preseason and most of the year.

https://www.thefalcoholic.com/2018/10/20/17969530/where-is-isaiah-oliver-week-7-falcons-giants-2018

 

Quote

 

The Falcons have suffered a lot of injuries on defense in 2018. Anyone who has followed the team even casually can see the havoc it has wrought on the safeties, LB corps, and to a lesser extent the DL. But one area that has seen relatively little attrition is CB, where starters Desmond Trufant and Robert Alford were supposed to be rocks on a defense littered with rubble. While Trufant and Alford haven’t necessarily played up to expectations, they’ve at least been solid.

CB Brian Poole—who has been Atlanta’s nickel CB since 2016—has instead taken a huge step back. His coverage, which has long been a weak point, has been exposed due to the Falcons’ lack of pass rush. Poole’s tackling ability, which he was once known for, has also dropped off significantly. It’s hard to pinpoint exactly why Poole is having a down year—outside of the overall horrid play of the defense—but there’s no doubt that he’s been a liability through the first six games of the season.

The Falcons appear to have anticipated this, at least in part, with the drafting of CB Isaiah Oliverin the second round. While Oliver had a relatively quiet training camp and struggled a bit in the preseason, we all still expected him to find his way onto the field relatively soon. Fast forward to now and we’ve only seen Oliver play due to injuries, most notably against the Saints and Bengals. While he’s flashed some of the potential that got him drafted, he still looks pretty inconsistent with his technique.

With Poole struggling, the team may soon decide that it’s time to see what Oliver can do in a rotational role—particularly as a matchup piece against the bigger WRs of the NFL. He’s the best option that the Falcons have against receivers like Mike Evans, who both Trufant and Alfordhave historically struggled with. Oliver taking snaps on the outside would also allow Alford to move into the slot, where he has shown some real promise in the past and could possibly extend his career even further.

The flipside of that is that Oliver is still prone to rookie mistakes, and will probably need safety help the majority of the time to prevent a lot of big plays on the outside. With Atlanta paying a lot of money to Trufant and Alford, it might be time to let them handle the one-on-one matchups while someone like Oliver can be helped along by Damontae Kazee.

Even though Poole has continued to play poorly and the Falcons had a great opportunity to let Oliver test his mettle in Week 6 against Mike Evans and the Bucs, Oliver has mostly been relegated to the bench. As a second round pick on a struggling defense, it seems like the time is now—or perhaps after the bye—to throw the young player out there and see if he can show some growth. Long-term, the Falcons would certainly like to see Oliver develop into a reliable matchup piece or even a CB2-level starter or better.

While I think it’s unlikely that the team makes such a major change for the Giants game—New York is struggling on offense outside of RB Saquon Barkley, and Oliver doesn’t really present a good matchup with anyone in their WR corps—that change should be coming soon. The bye week could be a perfect time for the team to start splitting the snaps of Poole and Oliver, or at the very least playing them based on the matchups. It’ll be important to evaluate the young CB in 2018, otherwise the team will have even more question marks in the secondary in 2019 and beyond.

What are your thoughts on the play, or lack thereof, of Isaiah Oliver? Would you like to see Oliver get more snaps, or do you think Poole is still the best option in the nickel?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Dirtybird3 said:

Do we have Oliver season highlights? All I can ever remember is his off coverage that lost us the Cincy game. I hope he makes the jump year two but yea I hadn't seen much that leads me to feel as confident as others, yet.. 

Yeah, the negative plays tend to stick out in people's minds while the good swept away in such a traumatic loss.  You should check out Unintentional Grounding's breakdown of him on YouTube and I'm sure there are condensed games there to along with the nice pick he had against Carolina.

Statistically he had 7 pass defenses and a pick in limited action (started 2 games) while Tru had just 12 PDs and no picks while starting every game.  Alford was just below Tru with 11.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Monolith2001 said:

Yeah, the negative plays tend to stick out in people's minds while the good swept away in such a traumatic loss.  You should check out Unintentional Grounding's breakdown of him on YouTube and I'm sure there are condensed games there to along with the nice pick he had against Carolina.

Statistically he had 7 pass defenses and a pick in limited action (started 2 games) while Tru had just 12 PDs and no picks while starting every game.  Alford was just below Tru with 11.

Objective observation is calling it how you see, both and good and bad. I think Ive seen far more comments suggesting he will be able to take over next year without issue. I wanted to highlight reasons why it may not be so simple. Can be done with any player but I was really curious about Oliver today. Oliver is not trash by any means, but that doesnt mean he is without flaws, and if we are going to depend on him as a starter on a defense that many including myself are optimistic will be better next year, I think its both fair and important to consider the full spectrum and not just what we hope he can be.

Here is the Unintentional Grounding video you referenced. 

 

Edited by LightningDawg58

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31 minutes ago, LightningDawg58 said:

 

 

 

I'm just gonna reply to the Bengal part because I'm not reading your novel.

That play was on Poole. He was the safety overtop on the cover 2. Also it was a terrible play call. He did his job. Green took advantage.

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These comments made by DQ give me a little faith about Oliver, “

I think he’s going to really thrive,” Falcons coach Dan Quinn said.  

“He got reps, he got experience and I think he’s one who is going to take a big step.” Oliver played in 14 games in his rookie season with two starts and recorded 23 tackles.

Similar to most rookies, as Oliver got more reps he continued to get more comfortable on the field and his play improved. His first interception of his NFL career came in Week 16 against the Carolina Panthers.  The kid standing  at 6-foot, 201 pounds with a 33½-inch wingspan, Oliver has the physical traits and athleticism Quinn likes in his cornerbacks.  I say give the kid a chance to prove himself!!

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2 hours ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Not sold on Oliver yet but many here are like they are on dam near anybody wearing a Falcon jersey.

Well, I wear a Falcons jersey. But a few don't like me. What gives?

LightningDawg58 likes this

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7 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

I'm just gonna reply to the Bengal part because I'm not reading your novel.

That play was on Poole. He was the safety overtop on the cover 2. Also it was a terrible play call. He did his job. Green took advantage.

Thanks for your response, you read the most important part if you were able to reply with that answer

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1 hour ago, Dirtybird3 said:

Do we have Oliver season highlights? All I can ever remember is his off coverage that lost us the Cincy game. I hope he makes the jump year two but yea I hadn't seen much that leads me to feel as confident as others, yet.. 

It wasn’t the off coverage. It was Manuel calling cover 2 in that situation. We’re not even a cover 2 defense. Why he called cover 2 with a rookie on a vet I’ll never understand but once Dalton and Green saw cover 2 they couldn’t wait for the play. Best call would’ve been cover 1 but even cover 3 gets the job done. That game and the Cleveland game are the 2 games that got Manuel fired imo 

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