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McGary and McCoy

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Eh, so much will boil down to the play of the players.

Making sense of the Falcons draft isn’t actually hard at all.

Someone like the OP trying to imply “we aren’t stubborn” in getting what we want at any cost; even to our own detriment is an emotional decision maker.

Anything to ensure it wasn’t Lindstrom, right? Any trade down if it meant better value and let’s play draft redo just so I like it better?

Thats like wishing you could reload your game from a save. This is the real world. Glad the Falcons made most value for them according to their plan.

At no point, with how this draft fell would Atlanta fail to execute their plan to the extent reasonable. For them, cost moving up wasn’t worth fixing the DL. And as covered, once those top-tier DL and LB are gone we instantly go to BPA on our big board.; even if that happened to be OG.

I’m glad they went with that they knew meant the most to them, but let’s ignore how there was not seemingly a trade down partner capable of letting them secure Lindstrom?

They weren’t greedy or “hyper-optimizer” every single pick on for perceived value sake to MISS on targeted players because you value picks more than players?

Falcons didn’t need 9 draft picks. Got some need depth for CB, while securing the best OG and #4 OT to go off the boards for cost of #79.

Part B is DQ relying on his coaching and returning injured staters.

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14 hours ago, Ergo Proxy said:

?

They replaced Davison with Malcom Brown, an upgrade. Both are UFA and they invested in a different player. Davison's market as a 1T run stopper wasn't as strong so he gets taken up later when the market is cool. Doesn't make him a bad player.

If McClain was garbage in WASH and people thought he'd improve going back to a system he did well in; not understanding the player had regressed at age 30...well why aren't people allowed to be positive on a guy coming from a role he has progressively improved in and just finished his rookie contract; coming from one of the best run defenses in the league as their 1T man?

Almost like McClain and Davision are bipolar; not Brown and Davison.

Give the dude a chance. But heaven forbid Senat progress either.

Disregard DT? What were we gonna do, take Taven Bryan instead of Ridley? GJ year 1 to year 2 was a jump alone, but I guess since Senat was a 3rd rounder and not a 2nd we disregarded him?? :huh: Just doesn't make sense.

We didn't lose leverage. Teams were not trading down as much as advertised entering the draft. Falcons took their man. This speculation on optimizing in hindsight ignores the league's board letting McCoy drop and assumes he would be as good of a guard coming out; since that's the purpose we got Chris.

Only 1 team made a move in the top 20. People were not paying the price. Falcons were in a spot of take their BPA on their board. It was Lindstrom.

This argument is made time and time again. You say Bryan vs Ridley and then describe GJ jump from year 1 to year 2. What if Bryan makes the same jump year 1 to 2? Right now everyone calls Ridley the right pick that is after 1 year only. Ridely was accustomed to the falcons offense because he came from it in Bama. Ridely could VERY EASILY regress this year, learning a new system, a new route running technique. But people don't think of that. Bryan could make the jump just as Grady did year 1 to year 2. Then and all of a sudden the TAFTs narrative that Ridely vs Bryan was a clear cut decision starts to become much more cloudy. You can't call people busts year 1 and you cant call them heroes in year one either. Ridely may struggle learning his first new offense in 4 years. Think about...

 Brown vs Davison. They are nearly identical in size. Play the same position as a 1tech. Brown recorded zero sacks last year. His sacks and tackle numbers have declined each year while at the patriots. But he is an "upgrade" over Davison. The point about Davison is people are claiming he has "fixed" our Dline issues as if this guy is "good". People have posted (mostly gazoo) that teammates talk about how great Davison is and hate to lose him. But the evidence doesn't support any of it. He wasn't good enough to be retained for vet minimum. He wasn't good enough to not to need to be upgraded. So again the comment stands and is valid, he is a N.O. cast off that the TAFT sees as a savior. 

Im fine with the Falcons taking 2 OL 1-2.Totally not the point. But It's convenient that you narrative stops there. Why is that? It's because the 3-7 rounds have no DT help. I know you're going to tell me "well we did pick Cominsky!". One pick and a guy who played DEnd and DQ has told him to bulk up. Thats our future? GJ is undera a 1 year contract. Crawford is on his last year contract. Beasley (LOL) is on his last year. Davison the SAVIOR is on a 1 year contract. Hageman wasn't good to start with and now hasnt played in 2 years AND is suspended the first 2 games. You are tentatively going into next season with Takk, Senat and Hageman on the roster. That is the definition of playing checkers and not chess. 

TAFT loves eating dog food while being told its Filet Mignon. Same thing happened with McClain. Same thing happened with Shelby. Same thing happening with Means. People got hyped about Joey Mbu, Joe Vellano, Ahtyba Rubin. Im sorry you guys don't see the clear pattern of rotating in scrap-heap players and then being told they are going to do well under DQ and the Falcons System. But it doesn't work. Evidence is there.

Yeah being positive is great. Go team! I want us to win too. But Being positive in the face of obvious issues just might be a new level of "fanatic".

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@runshoot  Grady Jarrett is on a one year contract but Falcons can franchise him for another two years thereafter if they want.  He isn’t going anywhere.   Grady’s Agent is playing hardball and DQ and TD are waiting him out right now.  If June 15 deadline passes with no deal then Grady assumes all risk of career ending injury.  Both sides want to make a deal but it will go all the way to the deadline.  

Jarrett will never walk from Falcons without compensation coming back in a trade.  I don’t think it will come to that but certainly possible.

As to the DLine, there aren’t a lot of long term answers there but there are plenty of options for 2019 - Takk, Vic, Clay, Crawford, Means, Grady, Senat, Davison & Hageman.   I mean, there is talent there to work with and Quinn is arguably the best DLine coach in all the NFL.   Would I love to have Oliver, Wilkins or Sweat in there? Sure but DQ can get production out of that group for 2019 and the re-address the DL in 2020 off-season.

The offense is SET now.  DQ has two former head coaches- both who were Matt Ryan’s offensive coordinators before coaching him and our offense again.   DQ can stay totally out - or mostly out - if the offense now and focus on his defense.

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Just now, g-dawg said:

@runshoot  Grady Jarrett is on a one year contract but Falcons can franchise him for another two years thereafter if they want.  He isn’t going anywhere.   Grady’s Agent is playing hardball and DQ and TD are waiting him out right now.  If June 15 deadline passes with no deal then Grady assumes all risk of career ending injury.  Both sides want to make a deal but it will go all the way to the deadline.  

Jarrett will never walk from Falcons without compensation coming back in a trade.  I don’t think it will come to that but certainly possible.

As to the DLine, there aren’t a lot of long term answers there but there are plenty of options for 2020 - Takk, Vic, Clay, Crawford, Means, Grady, Senat, Davison & Hageman.   I mean, there is talent there to work with and Quinn is arguably the best DLine coach in all the NFL.   Would I love to have Oliver, Wilkins or Sweat in there? Sure but DQ can get production out of that group for 2019 and the re-address the DL in 2020 off-season.

Right. Grady isnt going anywhere if we tag him again. The cost becomes prohibitive for salary balance though and The compensation we get can only be a 3rd if he walks. Who is to say we would even use it to draft a DT? 

Again do not focus on the 1-2 rounds. Senat last year but No DT in 2017 draft, no DT in 2016 draft. GJ in 2015. Is this your definition of building through the draft and developing talent?

I know everyone in the NFL says DQ is highly regarded but where are the results in atlanta?. Seriously Im asking. I listed a pile of players we brought in for 1 year and they did not work out, improve or stay with us.

Im asking, where is the proof we have developed Dline players? GJ is the sole single player since DQ has been here. We have already been through multiple DC and multiple DLine coaches.

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25 minutes ago, runshoot said:

Brown vs Davison. They are nearly identical in size. Play the same position as a 1tech. Brown recorded zero sacks last year. His sacks and tackle numbers have declined each year while at the patriots. But he is an "upgrade" over Davison. The point about Davison is people are claiming he has "fixed" our Dline issues as if this guy is "good". People have posted (mostly gazoo) that teammates talk about how great Davison is and hate to lose him. But the evidence doesn't support any of it. He wasn't good enough to be retained for vet minimum. He wasn't good enough to not to need to be upgraded. So again the comment stands and is valid, he is a N.O. cast off that the TAFT sees as a savior. 

Just picking this part out and I'll give you a counter:

The Falcons let Patrick DiMarco walk and chose to keep Levine Toilolo, only to cut him a year later. They didn't think Dimarco was worth paying the $2MM they paid Kemal Ishmael to be a back up. For one of the best FBs in the league. I think we can all agree Dimarco wasn't a cast off. Not all free agents are "cast offs" or bad players.

Just saying...

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1 minute ago, vel said:

Just picking this part out and I'll give you a counter:

The Falcons let Patrick DiMarco walk and chose to keep Levine Toilolo, only to cut him a year later. They didn't think Dimarco was worth paying the $2MM they paid Kemal Ishmael to be a back up. For one of the best FBs in the league. I think we can all agree Dimarco wasn't a cast off. Not all free agents are "cast offs" or bad players.

Just saying...

Very true and I respect that.

The difference I will counter with is Dimarco was paid starter money 2mm or whatever. Davison was a vet minimum, they legally couldnt pay him less.

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11 minutes ago, runshoot said:

Right. Grady isnt going anywhere if we tag him again. The cost becomes prohibitive for salary balance though and The compensation we get can only be a 3rd if he walks. Who is to say we would even use it to draft a DT? 

Again do not focus on the 1-2 rounds. Senat last year but No DT in 2017 draft, no DT in 2016 draft. GJ in 2015. Is this your definition of building through the draft and developing talent?

I know everyone in the NFL says DQ is highly regarded but where are the results in atlanta?. Seriously Im asking. I listed a pile of players we brought in for 1 year and they did not work out, improve or stay with us.

Im asking, where is the proof we have developed Dline players? GJ is the sole single player since DQ has been here. We have already been through multiple DC and multiple DLine coaches.

The team controls Grady - plain and simple.  He is not free and therefore he cannot walk and we just get a 3rd rounder back.  Grady still hasn’t had even close to a double digit sack year and doesn’t deserve “Donald Money”.  Falcons value their studs and I am sure Grady knows it  - AB has already said Grady will be a “Falcon for Life” Grady’s Dad is in the Ring of Honor.  He is here to stay so just stop this line of conjecture.

If the Falcons has gone the other way - they would have had to move up.  Clearly they saw Lawrence the way most did (maybe not most on TATF) as a 2-down run stuffer.   Both Oliver/Wilkins required a move up the board.  Had Falcons gone that way, you would be looking at the same “pieces together and we hope it works” BS on the OLine we have seen the last decade.  It worked one time in 10 previous years and it failed in SB when the offense started going three and out and unable to run out the clock while the defense was gassed.

One thing some folks - maybe you/maybe not - don’t take into account is time of possession (Top) - If an offense can increase it’s TOP that means the defense is not only more rested but has less time to make a mistake or give up a big play.

Back in the Michael Turner heyday the Falcons were averaging about 35+ minutes a game and dominating time of possession.

I believe the new resources and depth on the OLine and another jack hammer at RB will help increase the Falcons Time of Posession and will help our defense.  That plus getting three starters back and DQ taking over defense will help.

I see the defense being much better in 2019.

Personally, if we get the offense right then the defense could be around 12-15 in ranking and we would still be fine and playoff bound.

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26 minutes ago, runshoot said:

Very true and I respect that.

The difference I will counter with is Dimarco was paid starter money 2mm or whatever. Davison was a vet minimum, they legally couldnt pay him less.

Oh I know. Just saying, we paid two guys the money we could have paid Dimarco and made a pretty glaring mistake. We could have tendered Poole the original round tender but chose not to. Could be another mistake. 

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4 minutes ago, vel said:

Oh I know. Just saying, we paid two guys the money we could have paid Dimarco and made a pretty glaring mistake. We could have tendered Poole the original round tender but chose not to. Could be another mistake. 

Poole was undrafted so how would that work?

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, runshoot said:

This argument is made time and time again. You say Bryan vs Ridley and then describe GJ jump from year 1 to year 2. What if Bryan makes the same jump year 1 to 2? Right now everyone calls Ridley the right pick that is after 1 year only. Ridely was accustomed to the falcons offense because he came from it in Bama. Ridely could VERY EASILY regress this year, learning a new system, a new route running technique. But people don't think of that. Bryan could make the jump just as Grady did year 1 to year 2. Then and all of a sudden the TAFTs narrative that Ridely vs Bryan was a clear cut decision starts to become much more cloudy. You can't call people busts year 1 and you cant call them heroes in year one either. Ridely may struggle learning his first new offense in 4 years. Think about...

 Brown vs Davison. They are nearly identical in size. Play the same position as a 1tech. Brown recorded zero sacks last year. His sacks and tackle numbers have declined each year while at the patriots. But he is an "upgrade" over Davison. The point about Davison is people are claiming he has "fixed" our Dline issues as if this guy is "good". People have posted (mostly gazoo) that teammates talk about how great Davison is and hate to lose him. But the evidence doesn't support any of it. He wasn't good enough to be retained for vet minimum. He wasn't good enough to not to need to be upgraded. So again the comment stands and is valid, he is a N.O. cast off that the TAFT sees as a savior. 

Im fine with the Falcons taking 2 OL 1-2.Totally not the point. But It's convenient that you narrative stops there. Why is that? It's because the 3-7 rounds have no DT help. I know you're going to tell me "well we did pick Cominsky!". One pick and a guy who played DEnd and DQ has told him to bulk up. Thats our future? GJ is undera a 1 year contract. Crawford is on his last year contract. Beasley (LOL) is on his last year. Davison the SAVIOR is on a 1 year contract. Hageman wasn't good to start with and now hasnt played in 2 years AND is suspended the first 2 games. You are tentatively going into next season with Takk, Senat and Hageman on the roster. That is the definition of playing checkers and not chess. 

TAFT loves eating dog food while being told its Filet Mignon. Same thing happened with McClain. Same thing happened with Shelby. Same thing happening with Means. People got hyped about Joey Mbu, Joe Vellano, Ahtyba Rubin. Im sorry you guys don't see the clear pattern of rotating in scrap-heap players and then being told they are going to do well under DQ and the Falcons System. But it doesn't work. Evidence is there.

Yeah being positive is great. Go team! I want us to win too. But Being positive in the face of obvious issues just might be a new level of "fanatic".

Part of what you describe is things I personally have not said nor support when taken out of context; we are hedging 2019 on DQ.

Had 2 choices; fix future NT or future interior OL. Chose the latter.

NO had a vacancy at 1T and used more money to secure Brown:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/malcom-brown-16756/

Just because we got Davison at a cool point in the market; a fact, and it being good for the Falcons, does not mean Davison is a bad player.

Based on his function and play in NO he is an upgrade. There was a report Falcons and Davison wanted to talk a longer deal, but chose this route (obviously if Senat improves at 1T why pay a FA vs rookie contract; ya know like Davison was in NO)

Oh, and part of the 2019 roster build out was the context.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I never said Davison was a savior. Oh, Taven Bryan progresses in year 2 but we don't give Senat a chance?

Also, I thought we need a 1T??

Heaven forbid if we let Poe and AC walk; suffer without them for a year, and could've made the wrong decision. Granted, we didn't have the funds and had to settle on McClain.

That's your basis for equating McClain to Davison because of being cheap? I think Davison signed cheaper than McClain actually lol

But totally different signings.

Look, all we need is improvement from Senat and Davison to keep doing what he did in NO. McClain we were hoping would rebound. He didn't.

Davison is 4 years younger and has improved every year in the league; earning starter snaps for the an elite run Defense.

but what was he paid in a cool market vs the Saints decision to pay Brown instead at the start of UFA? Must mean Davison sucks, amirite?

lol okay dude I'm a fan and don't use logic. :huh: 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

NO and NE

Brown is a former 1st rounder and younger than Davision, a guy that had to improve once he got in the league as a 5th rounder...I can understand why NO overpaid for Brown; going younger and improving.

I'm not gonna speak as to the different systems but NO produced with Davison having the most snaps there last 2 years. We're asking him to rotate with Senat right now. Plug and play, period.

If anything, I'll give you this while looking into his stats from 2017 and 2018: Davison regressed in his stats on the surface, but thats in harmony with playing less in 2018 and if you look into his snap count between years. He still led their 1T in snaps. Meanwhile, their run D improved. The thing is, unlike Brown, Davison isn't getting the credit. Even NE let both of their NTs go in FA; afaik. That doesn't make them bad, does it?

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl2017

So, overworked their run D wasn't as good but on a snap count rotation at 1T Davison was part of a huge upgrade to their run D.

^That's all we want out of him. Being PART of the equation of run D from the 1T. How that = SAVIOR is simply not logical.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2018/opp.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2017/opp.htm

So, he was still finding his way until helping their unit peak last year. Far cry from McClain. and again, while he has shown limited ability to make as many plays as Brown in a 3-4(presuming thats majority of what NE plays) doesn't mean in a 4-3 at 1T Davison isn't doing his job. That's also different than simply drafting Senat last year and then having to rely on a McClain signing after the draft.

Edited by Ergo Proxy

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1 hour ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Part of what you describe is things I personally have not said nor support when taken out of context; we are hedging 2019 on DQ.

<snip: tons of text>

I think we aren't reaching each other. We both make our points but they aren't about what the other is talking about :lol::lol:.

It's all good. Bottom line is I see no way this defense improves with the moves/lack of moves made and others do. Hate me for it if you want.

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1 hour ago, runshoot said:

I think we aren't reaching each other. We both make our points but they aren't about what the other is talking about :lol::lol:.

It's all good. Bottom line is I see no way this defense improves with the moves/lack of moves made and others do. Hate me for it if you want.

It can’t help but get better. 

The question is, can it be good enough to win a SB? That’s where valid questions are fair to being ask by you and a few others in here, including myself.

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On 5/1/2019 at 9:04 AM, MD-FalconFan13 said:

Good point. 

I just see so many people acting like the way we did things was the only way to do things. Believing that requires you to believe that Lindstrom is so far and away better than other similarly ranked prospects it's almost irrational. 

Taking Lindstrom at 14 when so many other prospects were available later in the draft requires him to be a very, very good player. I just don't think putting that much stock in him is wise. 

I think a fire sale trade down where you only ask for a 3rd or even a 4th and 5th would have allowed us to still get one target in McGary at the end of the 1st. Then take BPA at 45, 79 and the extra 3rd. Double dip at OG in the 4th with Ben Powers and Dru Samia. You have similar talent and more picks for the defense. 

I would have gone Greedy in the 2nd,  Ferguson in the 3rd and the aforementioned double dip in the 4th. Mack Wilson and stuck with Jordan Miller in the 5th. How in the world we passed on Harmon or Demarcus Christmas in the 6th I'll never know. 

In know I'm not an NFL coach or scout,  but I've done a lot of film review. I just think with the picks we had  we underperformed. We'll know for sure in time. 

yeah Ben Powers or Dru Samia are uselesee picks after taking Brown and Carpenter.  We took the best OG in the draft and arguably our highest rated OT.  Also it assumes we have a trade partner.

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20 hours ago, g-dawg said:

In the NFL era of the 40yr old quarterback as the new norm,  please don't refer to our baby 34yr old QB as "aging".

Thank you,

The Management

True... but seriously, Brees, Brady, Manning... They wouldn't have been able to play that long getting hit like Matt last year. 

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Think everyone needs to take a breath see what becomes of the rest of the off season.

Opportunities are still there to prove the roster,it’s not over.

I wasn’t overly enamoured myself but I had a few inklings a few days out that they may do this.I just couldn’t get with all the linked media to certain guys.Something about TDs commentary about a week or so out saying they already had there picks lined up and were basically just adjusting the backend of it.

Having alot of guys fighting for a spots especially on that Oline is a good thing.Over invested,reached picks I don’t buy it.All I see is a plan being executed on that side of the ball and a fallback if our early round draft picks don’t pan out straight away pretty much.

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7 hours ago, Vandy said:

It can’t help but get better. 

The question is, can it be good enough to win a SB? That’s where valid questions are fair to being ask by you and a few others in here, including myself.

It will have to be opportunistic like late 2016.  Strip the ball, actually catch the INT’s...we don’t have the personnel to line up and dominate 

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I've largely held my tongue on this, but here's my #FutureColdTake that you can hold against me later. I think Lindstrom will be solid at a minimum. McGary is the pick that leaves me scratching my head. He seems awkward and lunges way too much. I'm terrified he's going to bust out. 

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