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Hurry_Up_And_Buy

McGary and McCoy

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“We just got consistently competitive within this recent decade! Act like it.”

 

so wait... you’re complaining about the FO  and how they draft but admit that they have helped create a consistently competitive franchise for the first time in team history.. 

 

Either their clueless or doing something right... whichis it?

 

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Valid argument, but a lot again is steeped in hindsight and preference/projection. You can't make these decisions seem like they make sense in the moment. You can say "trade down" but don't know if they tried to or not. You clearly have a preference for McCoy over Lindstrom, which is fine. I liked McCoy and saw him as a good option to add to this team as a long term center replacement. But you're making definitive statements that you can't truly prove about his projection and future in the NFL. Statements like "eventually playing at a high if not higher level than the guy he'd be replacing (Mack)" are VERY bold. Better than a 6x Pro Bowler, 3x All Pro? Come on OP. "Picking up a guy at 14 who may be less talented than Zack Martin?" HeIl the Zack Martin pick was labeled as underwhelming when it happened and nobody expected him to be rookie All Pro while they passed on home state talent Johnny Manziel. 

What does any of this mean:

" I would wish that this franchise stop being so soft. I would wish this franchise saw the actual importance of leveraging EVERY aspect of the business and not just the hot guy at the time be they coach or player or football stadium designer. I'd wish we wouldn't keep giving shots to the guys who "kinda seems to fit"

Soft? They literally just poured significant resources into some of the biggest and meanest OL we've added in one offseason. Literally, all of the complaints have been "we keep adding these small, athletic OL" and they went and got big hog mollies and they're still soft? Because they didn't add McCoy? Do I have this right? Hot guy at the time? Lol like what is even going on? 

You can say "trade down, take McGary, then take McCoy" but it takes two to tango. Always. The Falcons weren't going to trade up back into the first round until Les Snead called TD. TD said it himself. McCoy is a good prospect. Who says he wasn't high on the Falcons' board? But also, him being a career starting center (36 of 38 games were starts at center) may have been factored. Maybe they decided McCoy's three cone being significantly lower than Lindstrom's was a deciding factor. There is a LOT that you don't know. But to make this entire rant based solely on your preference is a little overkill. I get liking a guy more than another. I'm a big Bradbury fan and think he'll be dominant and wish he was a Falcon, but I'm not making threads about it. 

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At our core we ride or die with our aging $30mil QB. It is smart to protect him. Our OL was the unit most undermanned. OTs cost huge money. And we already have a really good center. Take from this what you want to.

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Sorry, but this entire rant is based on the projected slots of various players- this guy projected as a top DLineman and went in the 5th.  This center is equal to this guard because  he was projected to be picked close to same time

Problem with that is, where Kiper, McShay or any of the "experts" think a player will go has little or no relation to where teams think he will go. Anyone who has followed the draft for any time at all should know that.

Here's Kipers and Mcshays 3 round mock:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/beml1v/espn_mel_kiper_jrs_and_todd_mcshays_threeround/

 

Here's the actual results:

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=2

 

Highlights,

They had Taylor going 11, he went  35th

They had Ferrell going 27th, he went 4th

They had McCoy going 22, he went  48

Bunting 97, went 39

D.Andre Walker 96, 168

Ridley 73, 126

Samia, 65, 114

 Khalen Saunders 58, 84

Tillery 51, 28

Lock 13, 42

Ferguson, 48, 85

Kiper and McShay are two of the best, and once you get out of the top ten or so, miss so frequently that there's no point in claiming their rankings have any meaning.

 

If you think the Falcons should have gone another direction in the draft, fine, but using draft projections to "prove" your point is just silly.

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8 hours ago, Yo_Lover said:

**** I can't wait for next year so everyone forgets these late round scrubs they think are gonna be gems.

Same story as every year, but this year they are really fast so more people jumped off that cliff

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13 minutes ago, falconidae said:

Sorry, but this entire rant is based on the projected slots of various players- this guy projected as a top DLineman and went in the 5th.  This center is equal to this guard because  he was projected to be picked close to same time

Problem with that is, where Kiper, McShay or any of the "experts" think a player will go has little or no relation to where teams think he will go. Anyone who has followed the draft for any time at all should know that.

Here's Kipers and Mcshays 3 round mock:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/beml1v/espn_mel_kiper_jrs_and_todd_mcshays_threeround/

 

Here's the actual results:

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=2

 

Highlights,

They had Taylor going 11, he went  35th

They had Ferrell going 27th, he went 4th

They had McCoy going 22, he went  48

Bunting 97, went 39

D.Andre Walker 96, 168

Ridley 73, 126

Samia, 65, 114

 Khalen Saunders 58, 84

Tillery 51, 28

Lock 13, 42

Ferguson, 48, 85

Kiper and McShay are two of the best, and once you get out of the top ten or so, miss so frequently that there's no point in claiming their rankings have any meaning.

 

If you think the Falcons should have gone another direction in the draft, fine, but using draft projections to "prove" your point is just silly.

This. Fans take media personnel's rankings/reports as gospel. As if the teams don't know anything and they just need to listen to the internet guys. Kiper sits in a f*ckin office in Bristol and gets drip fed insider info, but does the same thing the guys at Draft Network do, on a much shlttier scale. He's just a big name, but people take these ESPN Big Boards as the legit rankings. 

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1 minute ago, vel said:

This. Fans take media personnel's rankings/reports as gospel. As if the teams don't know anything and they just need to listen to the internet guys. Kiper sits in a f*ckin office in Bristol and gets drip fed insider info, but does the same thing the guys at Draft Network do, on a much shlttier scale. He's just a big name, but people take these ESPN Big Boards as the legit rankings. 

I actually like Kiper, I just don't take him seriously. I enjoy all the speculation and mocks. Including the ones on here. Learn a lot from them. Just don't take them as the truth.

The draft pick game here- the one where you guess the falcons draft picks, it's routinely won by someone having 3 correct guesses. 

I don't think anyone on the board mocked Lindstrum and McGary to the falcons in the first round.  I don't think any of the "expert" mock drafts had Lindstrum to the Falcons. Don't care about that at all. Falcons got a player who looks to be able to anchor the Oline for years. Cool. 

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1 hour ago, Francis York Morgan said:

McCoy isn't nearly as good as Lindstrom in pass pro, and he lunges a ton. I liked him somewhat if he slipped (in the 2nd is still a bit high imho) but he has zero chance to start day 1 because he has so many bad habits. He compensates for his lack of anchor by lunging and it bites him. A lot.

Elgton Jenkins is better imho. Still not as good as Lindstrom can be at guard, but a better player argument-wise. Not sure why McCoy even merits discussion over Lindstrom. Feels like bait from a Saint.

Ok well we need to make another bet. I'm not sure how close u looked at McCoy's tape but he's gonna be starting at the very least by midseason. Very strong anchor, always first to make contact needs to work on his feet but very good balance and leverage. You need to go watch his tape seriously man. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, vel said:

Valid argument, but a lot again is steeped in hindsight and preference/projection. You can't make these decisions seem like they make sense in the moment. You can say "trade down" but don't know if they tried to or not. You clearly have a preference for McCoy over Lindstrom, which is fine. I liked McCoy and saw him as a good option to add to this team as a long term center replacement. But you're making definitive statements that you can't truly prove about his projection and future in the NFL. Statements like "eventually playing at a high if not higher level than the guy he'd be replacing (Mack)" are VERY bold. Better than a 6x Pro Bowler, 3x All Pro? Come on OP. "Picking up a guy at 14 who may be less talented than Zack Martin?" HeIl the Zack Martin pick was labeled as underwhelming when it happened and nobody expected him to be rookie All Pro while they passed on home state talent Johnny Manziel. 

What does any of this mean:

" I would wish that this franchise stop being so soft. I would wish this franchise saw the actual importance of leveraging EVERY aspect of the business and not just the hot guy at the time be they coach or player or football stadium designer. I'd wish we wouldn't keep giving shots to the guys who "kinda seems to fit"

Soft? They literally just poured significant resources into some of the biggest and meanest OL we've added in one offseason. Literally, all of the complaints have been "we keep adding these small, athletic OL" and they went and got big hog mollies and they're still soft? Because they didn't add McCoy? Do I have this right? Hot guy at the time? Lol like what is even going on? 

You can say "trade down, take McGary, then take McCoy" but it takes two to tango. Always. The Falcons weren't going to trade up back into the first round until Les Snead called TD. TD said it himself. McCoy is a good prospect. Who says he wasn't high on the Falcons' board? But also, him being a career starting center (36 of 38 games were starts at center) may have been factored. Maybe they decided McCoy's three cone being significantly lower than Lindstrom's was a deciding factor. There is a LOT that you don't know. But to make this entire rant based solely on your preference is a little overkill. I get liking a guy more than another. I'm a big Bradbury fan and think he'll be dominant and wish he was a Falcon, but I'm not making threads about it. 

Bradberry got dominated in most of thr Senior Bowl practices dude. You're obviously not a student of the game. Go watch Bradberry and McCoy rep for rep and tell me what you see... Then come back and give ur 2 cents. Lastly, the only reason we had to make a blitz on O-lineman this year is because it's been a majorly neglected unit until they show how much they suck and then suddenly it becomes a rush job fix. If Dimi had an eye for OLine talent early on we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. Get back to me in a couple years buddy. We'll see who knows what's what.

Edited by Hurry_Up_And_Buy

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11 minutes ago, Hurry_Up_And_Buy said:

Bradberry got dominated in most of thr Senior Bowl practices dude. You're obviously not a student of the game. Go watch Bradberry and McCoy rep for rep and tell me what you see... Then come back and give ur 2 cents. Lastly, the only reason we had to make a blitz on O-lineman this year is because it's been a majorly neglected unit until they show how much they suck and then suddenly it becomes a rush job fix. If Dimi had an eye for OLine talent early on we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. Get back to me in a couple years buddy. We'll see who knows what's what.

1v1 OL vs DL drills are strong advantages for the defense, because there is no threat of the run, play action, reading keys, etc. Just straight up "beat the guy". That's not real. Turn on Bradbury's tape and you see why he went #18. He stood up Dexter Lawrence in game a number of times. I don't have to give my two cents on my like for Bradbury, it was made all draft season. Just search for it. 

Your entire bltching is about one player being passed over for another. It's childish. 

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28 minutes ago, Hurry_Up_And_Buy said:

Ok well we need to make another bet. I'm not sure how close u looked at McCoy's tape but he's gonna be starting at the very least by midseason. Very strong anchor, always first to make contact needs to work on his feet but very good balance and leverage. You need to go watch his tape seriously man. 

To revise what I said: He would have zero chance to start FOR US day one based on his bad habits.

I watched him pretty seriously. Won't be surprised if he starts over a nobody like Nick Easton, who is used to playing guard and not playing it well, but I think that's more a product of the Saints not having a good center after Unger's surprise retirement than McCoy being great. They missed on the two best center prospects (three if you count Lindstrom, who was getting looks at center) and jumped up for McCoy since the dropoff was so steep after him.

McCoy could wind up being a good center. I agree that he plays balanced, and he's plenty strong. Athletic guy. Just think his tendency to shoot first and lunge is going to get him in trouble against NFL caliber DTs. I'm mostly saying this because when he didn't make first contact, or he missed, he got rocked. That's also why I'm critiquing his anchor; didn't see him reset well that often. But every prospect has warts.

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8 hours ago, Vandy said:

As a Defense-wins championships minded- poster, I like your draft better. 

The daft is still a gamble in every round.  The more bites at the apple you get in the top 100, the better off you’ll be.  Moving down could have netted 4 picks rather than 2...would have liked it.

And OP is right about this: nobody on TATF mocked Lindstrom to us at 14.  If they did, I want to see it  along with the responses to it

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10 hours ago, Vandy said:

OP’s rant contains some valid points.

Trading down (instead of up) to draft McGary and then taking McCoy at 45 not only would have ****** up saints draft, but would have allowed falcons to do some interesting things with remaining 2nd and 3rd round picks. 

If we had done that then the Saints might have taken Lindstrom by some miracle for them if he falls at all and by god i **** sure didn't want that to happen.  Lindstrom was my #1 rated interior lineman in this entire draft and was in alot of my mock drafts for us in either the late 1st or 2nd round.  I would not want McCoy over Lindstrom at all and i like McCoy but i like Lindstrom way more of the 2.  If the Saints got Lindstrom i would be pretty pissed off that they stole a guy i valued so highly.

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7 hours ago, g-dawg said:

The OP also fails to recognize the Hindsight aspect of his analysis as well.   I am sure every NFL GM would move around the board differently with perfect Hindsight.

Many of these mocks had McCoy as a 1st round pick.  It would be reasonable to assume he would go between picks 20-40.   I don’t believe McCoy is as good as Lindstrom but to each his own.

Changing gears.

if Falcons draft board had McCoy, Bradbury and Lindstrom the same then they would have played it differently I am sure.

I will agree with OP that Falcons don’t always leverage their picks BUT there are plenty of teams that do that don’t pick players as well as the Falcons do.  There is something to be said for “getting your guy.”

There were other takers for Lindstrom in the Top 20 yet no one was interested enough in Eric McCoy until the 40’s.   How do you explain this?  These are NFL GMs, scouts and coaches.  Because it’s offensive line it is easy to blur the lines and just say “these two guys are basically the same.”

Well, are they really?

/thread

PS: McCoy came in as a C. Let's just ignore that detail. Lindstrom was the best NFL ready OG.

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10 hours ago, runshoot said:

Kind of all over the map.

The only thing I will say about "losing leverage" listed above, is the blatant disregard of DTs in 2 straight drafts. Had we not hit a miracle 5th rounder in GJ, what would our DT situation really look like? For the love of god, stop with the Davison love. Dude was so good, his team let him walk for PENNIES!? How do people think this is a good thing?

?

They replaced Davison with Malcom Brown, an upgrade. Both are UFA and they invested in a different player. Davison's market as a 1T run stopper wasn't as strong so he gets taken up later when the market is cool. Doesn't make him a bad player.

If McClain was garbage in WASH and people thought he'd improve going back to a system he did well in; not understanding the player had regressed at age 30...well why aren't people allowed to be positive on a guy coming from a role he has progressively improved in and just finished his rookie contract; coming from one of the best run defenses in the league as their 1T man?

Almost like McClain and Davision are bipolar; not Brown and Davison.

Give the dude a chance. But heaven forbid Senat progress either.

Disregard DT? What were we gonna do, take Taven Bryan instead of Ridley? GJ year 1 to year 2 was a jump alone, but I guess since Senat was a 3rd rounder and not a 2nd we disregarded him?? :huh: Just doesn't make sense.

We didn't lose leverage. Teams were not trading down as much as advertised entering the draft. Falcons took their man. This speculation on optimizing in hindsight ignores the league's board letting McCoy drop and assumes he would be as good of a guard coming out; since that's the purpose we got Chris.

Only 1 team made a move in the top 20. People were not paying the price. Falcons were in a spot of take their BPA on their board. It was Lindstrom.

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2 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

If we had done that then the Saints might have taken Lindstrom by some miracle for them if he falls at all and by god i **** sure didn't want that to happen.  Lindstrom was my #1 rated interior lineman in this entire draft and was in alot of my mock drafts for us in either the late 1st or 2nd round.  I would not want McCoy over Lindstrom at all and i like McCoy but i like Lindstrom way more of the 2.  If the Saints got Lindstrom i would be pretty pissed off that they stole a guy i valued so highly.

LOL....Did you even read my post?

It’s not McCoy over Lindstrom, it’s McGary, McCoy, and having another 2nd-3rd round pick (Adderly? Or maybe DE Polite/Ferguson/Winovich?) in that scenario. 

Some of you guys need to think before you respond. 

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1 hour ago, Ergo Proxy said:

/thread

PS: McCoy came in as a C. Let's just ignore that detail. Lindstrom was the best NFL ready OG.

Exactly. Just imagine TD takes a Center and moves him to Guard and he fails. BOY the outrage would be Konz/Holmes level. 

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Former Jets and Dolphins GM Mike Tannenbaum gave the Falcons Draft an “A-“ grade on NFL Live on ESPN tonight.

That might be the kiss of death :rolleyes:

 

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1 minute ago, g-dawg said:

Former Jets and Dolphins GM Mike Tannenbaum gave the Falcons Draft an “A-“ grade on NFL Live on ESPN tonight.

That might be the kiss of death :rolleyes:

 

Yikes!

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12 minutes ago, vel said:

Exactly. Just imagine TD takes a Center and moves him to Guard and he fails. BOY the outrage would be Konz/Holmes level. 

State line all day! ;):tiphat:

You take what you know vs what you think could work.

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1 hour ago, Vandy said:

LOL....Did you even read my post?

It’s not McCoy over Lindstrom, it’s McGary, McCoy, and having another 2nd-3rd round pick (Adderly? Or maybe DE Polite/Ferguson/Winovich?) in that scenario. 

Some of you guys need to think before you respond. 

I 100% read your post fully and i stand by my reply that i would rather have Lindstrom than McCoy + the 2nd round pick.  I like Lindstrom that much as a player coming out as i said he was my #1 interior lineman in the draft.  So i don't see how that means i didn't read your post or didn't think before i replied i just so happen to like the player we got more than you do and would rather have him than your scenario.  Winovich would have been of those guys you listed the only guy im  interested in and he was already gone by our 2nd round pick much less a later one we traded for.   Now if you were to swap out Kaleb for Lindstrom in a trade down scenario im all for it.  Lindstrom + a extra 2nd or 3rd i'll take all day but can you guarantee he would be there later for us to still pick.

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7 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

I 100% read your post fully and i stand by my reply that i would rather have Lindstrom than McCoy + the 2nd round pick.  I like Lindstrom that much as a player coming out as i said he was my #1 interior lineman in the draft.  So i don't see how that means i didn't read your post or didn't think before i replied i just so happen to like the player we got more than you do and would rather have him than your scenario.  Winovich would have been of those guys you listed the only guy im  interested in and he was already gone by our 2nd round pick much less a later one we traded for.   Now if you were to swap out Kaleb for Lindstrom in a trade down scenario im all for it.  Lindstrom + a extra 2nd or 3rd i'll take all day but can you guarantee he would be there later for us to still pick.

That’s not even close to what you said in replying to my original post. Your rant was on McCoy v Lindstrom, no mention of any 2nd rd pick. 

Wrong again on winovich, he was taken middle 3rd round. 

Read....research......think. 

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11 hours ago, maxatlanta said:

At our core we ride or die with our aging $30mil QB. It is smart to protect him. Our OL was the unit most undermanned. OTs cost huge money. And we already have a really good center. Take from this what you want to.

In the NFL era of the 40yr old quarterback as the new norm,  please don't refer to our baby 34yr old QB as "aging".

Thank you,

The Management

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11 hours ago, falconidae said:

Sorry, but this entire rant is based on the projected slots of various players- this guy projected as a top DLineman and went in the 5th.  This center is equal to this guard because  he was projected to be picked close to same time

Problem with that is, where Kiper, McShay or any of the "experts" think a player will go has little or no relation to where teams think he will go. Anyone who has followed the draft for any time at all should know that.

Here's Kipers and Mcshays 3 round mock:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/beml1v/espn_mel_kiper_jrs_and_todd_mcshays_threeround/

 

Here's the actual results:

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=2

 

Highlights,

They had Taylor going 11, he went  35th

They had Ferrell going 27th, he went 4th

They had McCoy going 22, he went  48

Bunting 97, went 39

D.Andre Walker 96, 168

Ridley 73, 126

Samia, 65, 114

 Khalen Saunders 58, 84

Tillery 51, 28

Lock 13, 42

Ferguson, 48, 85

Kiper and McShay are two of the best, and once you get out of the top ten or so, miss so frequently that there's no point in claiming their rankings have any meaning.

 

If you think the Falcons should have gone another direction in the draft, fine, but using draft projections to "prove" your point is just silly.

Kiper actually had Lindstrom go #12 to Packers.

Tannenbaum gave Falcons an "A-" on Falcons draft.

This draft is growing on people - the more you really think about, the more EVERYONE really thinks about it, the more wisdom that will be discovered in this draft.

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