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Mr. Wilson just got paid


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6 hours ago, GEORGIAfan said:

Not behind the 29th ranked oline. Ryan is not mobile enough to survive behind that line. 

You do realize the point of his post was that Wilson didn’t have to do much to win a SB; given the dominant run game and Defense?

You have a Defense like that and you maybe get away with winning without an offensive TD.

Control the clock, ball and choke their offense. Must be nice to have a SB ring Mr. Wilson! :tiphat:

PS: The notion that Ryan hasn’t played behind mostly average at best lines in his career and Wilson wasn’t carried by an elite Defense is being rather partial.

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3 hours ago, No.11 said:

Yes he is. He's generated literally almost all of Seattle's offense in the last couple of years because of the Seahawks' stubborn refusal to put a competent O-line and talent in general around him. RW (I think on more than one occasion) led the team in passing AND rushing. 

Seattle is trash without RW. He deserves every penny.

Russ has never been the one to carry that team. The defense and run game has ALWAYS carried Seattle during Pete Carroll's time there

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7 hours ago, ya_boi_j said:

Wilson wouldn't be as good with 4 legit passing targets and a solid run game behind an upgraded offensive line? I gotta call bias BS on this one

No because he isn't as accurate as Ryan. Wilson has never had to carry Seattle. They had the top rushing offense last year. 

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2 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

No because he isn't as accurate as Ryan. Wilson has never had to carry Seattle. They had the top rushing offense last year. 

Okay here is where I flip flop on this debate lol.

Wilson never had to do much when they were the dominate team in the NFC back in the early part of his career. He was a bus driver for a well oiled machine. Just don't mess anything up and they would likely win 80% of the time for a few years. He won a SB and got to another by not having to do a whole lot.

However since that defense left & Marshawn went to Oakland Russ has become a far better QB than he ever was early in his career. He IS the offense. Having the #1 Rush offense this past year was simply a byproduct of Wilson and his running ability. Remember the Mike Vick days? Same thing. Defenses have to respect his ability to run every play. 

No one can ever convince me Wilson is as good of a passer as Ryan today but Wilson is elite for other reasons. Both guys are worth the money they're paid.

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35 minutes ago, red falcon said:

I did and i will stick to it. Again you can make numbers say what you want. To say youd think fans of the falcons would give matt more respect. That is emotion. 

I took a step back last year because i saw the writing on the wall when the defense went down and we couldnt run block. I knew i was too emotionally invovled. Being upset did nothing for me. I wrote last season off early.  

To say hes the only one using logic is a crime. Again what do we have to show for those 4th quarter comebacks? Only one thing matters in the nfl. 

Why are you so fixated on 4th quarter comebacks? Matt has at least 5 playoff games better than any of Russell Wilson's.  Is big game performance not any indication of clutchness?

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9 minutes ago, PriMeTiiMe said:

Okay here is where I flip flop on this debate lol.

Wilson never had to do much when they were the dominate team in the NFC back in the early part of his career. He was a bus driver for a well oiled machine. Just don't mess anything up and they would likely win 80% of the time for a few years. He won a SB and got to another by not having to do a whole lot.

However since that defense left & Marshawn went to Oakland Russ has become a far better QB than he ever was early in his career. He IS the offense. Having the #1 Rush offense this past year was simply a byproduct of Wilson and his running ability. Remember the Mike Vick days? Same thing. Defenses have to respect his ability to run every play. 

No one can ever convince me Wilson is as good of a passer as Ryan today but Wilson is elite for other reasons. Both guys are worth the money they're paid.

That's why that offense suits Russ. I have always said only Brady and Rodgers are worth the money QBs are making now. And I still stand by that opinion 

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2 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

That's why that offense suits Russ. I have always said only Brady and Rodgers are worth the money QBs are making now. And I still stand by that opinion 

Rodgers has been worse than both Ryan and Wilson the last 2 years. :huh:

And in 2016 (3 years ago) Ryan beat him for MVP and eliminated him from the playoffs.

Edited by PriMeTiiMe
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3 minutes ago, PriMeTiiMe said:

Rodgers has been worse than both Ryan and Wilson the last 2 years. :huh:

And in 2016 (3 years ago) Ryan beat him for MVP and eliminated him from the playoffs.

In 2016 Rodgers was playing great they just had injuries to every level of the defense. Rodgers,imo,is still physically the best QB in the NFL. Brady is the best qb. QBs going head to head means absolutely nothing cause they don't play eachother. Rodgers only played in 7 games in 2017. 

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13 minutes ago, abcranford2 said:

Why are you so fixated on 4th quarter comebacks? Matt has at least 5 playoff games better than any of Russell Wilson's.  Is big game performance not any indication of clutchness?

Because part of the argument was 4th quater comebacks. Winning playoff gms that lead to a super bowl victory is all that matters. The rest is irrelevant. 

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1 hour ago, Dr Long Shot said:

I've checked it out but it's not very informative. "Adjusted Sack Rate adds adjustments for opponent quality, as well as down and distance (sacks are more common on third down, especially third-and-long). More here."

More here, doesn't work lol

I'll just add that "adjustments for opponent quality" should be a red flag as to the quality of the statistic. Would be interesting to know exactly how they adjust for that.

I didn't look at that one lol. I clicked on the one from the one on the first page but that's it

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44 minutes ago, youngbloodz said:

No because he isn't as accurate as Ryan. Wilson has never had to carry Seattle. They had the top rushing offense last year. 

I don't know if he's not as accurate. Ryan is accurate but he's not Peyton Manning accurate. No QB, whether it be Ryan or Wilson will ever be able to show their true accuracy when being hurried a lot and forced to throw on the run a lot. When they both have a clean pocket both are pretty good. Ryan has an advantage with the weapons he has available

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You know, if Wilson hadn't won a super bowl and Ryan had, this conversation is completely different. They're both really good QBs, be happy to have either one as my QB

Wilson early on had the advantage of being severely underdrafted in the new CBA, so that the hawks had lots of money to build the rest of the team. Wilson got paid less than   750,000 a year first 3 years, with cap hits less than a million.

Ryan , on the other hand, was one of the last QBs signed under the old agreement. He had a 62 mil contract. He had cap hits of 6.6 mil, 9.6 mil and 12.5 mil his first 3 years.

Contrast that with RG3, who was drafted a spot earlier under the new CBA. He signed a 21 mil contract. An extra 40 mil to spend would have made it easier to build a team around him. Falcons were also handicapped by Vicks contract-Vick was suspended, so his salary didn't count against the cap, but his prorated bonuses did. That was about 15 mil over the two years he was suspended. They got some of that back, it still put a crimp in the falcons pocketbook.

 

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55 minutes ago, MD-FalconFan13 said:

Yeah, this argument seems pretty silly. I get that folks see Wilson's team in the playoffs more and since he doesn't have really well-known weapons and is honestly a good QB in his own right, it seems like the easy answer to give him the lion share of the credit for his team's success. But I'd argue that the Seahawks offense hasn't really had much success and certainly not success in passing. Consider for a moment that the Seattle offense has only finished in the top 10 twice in Wilson's entire career and in both years the rushing attack was top 3 in the league. Here is Seattle's offense since Wilson's arrival

  Total Pass Run
2012 17th  27th  3rd
2013 18th 26th 4th
2014 9th 27th  1st
2015 4th 20th 3rd
2016 12th 10th 25th
2017 15th 14th 23rd
2018 18th 27th  1st


As you can clearly see, the running game has been the backbone of Seattle's offense throughout Wilson's tenure. I do get that Wilson contributes to the run game, but everyone know that the rushing attack was primarily Beast Mode. The Seahawks were a perennial contender when they had a suffocating defense and ran the ball constantly to control the clock. Since Lynch's departure in 2016, they've remained a good team but largely flawed and prone to loses against teams that have good offenses. Their passing game fluctuates wildly and the offense is extremely inconsistent. 

The case is the exact opposite with Matt Ryan who has  been the focal point of the offense since 2011. You pretty much know that when you play the Falcons you'll need to put up points. Matt Ryan has consistently lead the passing offense to be 6th or higher 5 of the last 7 years. That's in spite of the run game being in the bottom half of the league all but 2 of those 7 years. 

  Total Pass Run
2008 6th 14th 2nd
2009 16th 13th 15th
2010 16th 15th 12th
2011 10th 8th 17th
2012 8th 6th 29th
2013 14th 7th 32nd
2014 8th 5th 24th
2015 7th 6th 18th
2016 2nd 3rd 5th
2017 8th 8th 13th
2018 6th 4th 27th

So clearly one QB is the driver of the team's offensive success and the other is the passenger for it. It should be clear which is both. As for the "Russ hasn't had the weapons" argument, that is absolutely true. Not many QBs have the weaponry that Matt has been blessed to have and Matt has taken full advantage of it. I think people assume that because a QB has weapons, he knows how to use them. Golden Tate had monster years when removed from Wilson. Jimmy Graham had monster years before playing with him. Zach MIller virtually disappeared when he came to Seattle. Even now he has some good options in Doug Baldwin and Tyler Lockett. Now I'm not saying Wilson is a bad QB at all, I think he's definitely in the top 8 QBs in the league. He's one of the best QBs when the pocket breaks down. He's near the top of the league at making something out of nothing. But in more ideal circumstances, there are quite a few guys that are just better read, diagnose and deliver passers. I do have the utmost respect for Wilson and think he's one of the best out there.  

Matt is not as good under pressure. That's not to say Matt is bad, just an acknowledgement of how good Russell is. However the same is true of Russell when it comes to scanning and breaking down defenses. He's good, but Matt is one of the best. When Matt has time, he's probably top 3-4 in the league. They are different QBs for sure. I can't say one is better than the other. They are even to me. Depends on what you value more from a QB and how your team is built. If you're starting from scratch, I'd probably take Russ. If you need a guy to come in and lead a team of vets, gimme Matty Ice.

 

The problem with comparing offenses is that their scheme is run heavy and multiple people have pointed out how under utilized Wilson is. As much as I disliked Sak, at least Sak understood that in today's NFL, you need to rely on your QB and have the offense run through the passing game. 

1000 yrd seasons are not rare anymore. Last year we had 21 in the NFL, 15 the year prior and 25 the year before that and 26 in 2015. And Baldwin, Tate, or Lockett could sniff Julio's jock strap. 

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2 hours ago, Dr Long Shot said:

Pfffffff... What exactly has Wilson done without a number 1 running attack and all world defense?

Don't tell me Ryan doesn't elevate talent when he made players like Michael Jenkins and Harry Douglass relevant. Cinci made no effort whatsoever to keep Sanu who was viewed as a disappointment coming off a brutal 300 yard season and now he is seen as an indispensable key contributor for our team. Odds are if Matt Ryan is throwing you the ball you will be putting up the best numbers of your career. 

Wilson is flashier but waaaay more inconsistent than Matt with a completion percentage in the low 60s. I understand why people who don't watch more than a few highlights of the Seahawks put him on a pedestal. People talk about let's see Matt behind that Seahawks line and seem to conveniently forget that Matt has played behind garbage lines (and no running game) more often than not. Doug Baldwin would be a perennial pro-bowler with Matt Ryan and fans like you would be pointing to that as evidence that Matt needs Baldwin to thrive, smh.

Golden Tate put up three enormous seasons in Detroit after doing jack squat in Seattle but here we go with the narrative that Russell just never got the toys to put up big numbers. Zach Miller a 700 + yard per season receiving TE for his entire career in Oakland saw his production plummet after being paired with Wilson, ditto for Jimmy Graham. But yes, it's Wilson that elevates teammates while Matt Ryan gets carried by his supporting cast who just by sheer chance always seems to put up their best numbers when playing with a Falcons uniform on. lol

Falcons fans are the worst. 

You say he's an inconsistent passer and cite completion percentage, and yet his career completion percentage is 64.2, which isn't far behind Ryan's. Wilson has a career YPA of 8 and career passer rating of 100.3. He's one of the most efficient passers in league history. Russ has thrown 34 or more TDs in three of the last 4 seasons and thrown less than 10 INTs in 4 out of 7 seasons, never exceeding 11.

In 2015 we saw what Wilson did without the #1 rushing attack--proved he was a top tier QB by putting up MVP numbers.

4024 passing yards: led team

553 rushing yards: led team

34 TDs

8 INTs

68.1% completion

8.3 YPA

110.1 passer rating

Take nothing away from Ryan, but these are facts bro. Not to mention RW continues to put up elite numbers despite being in an offensive system that quite frankly holds him back and treats him like a rookie. It was on full display against the Cowboys in the playoffs. Shottenheimer should have play actioned the Cowboys to death and let RW make them pay for stacking the box pretty much every play.

 

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1 hour ago, youngbloodz said:

Russ has never been the one to carry that team. The defense and run game has ALWAYS carried Seattle during Pete Carroll's time there

That run game isn't nearly as good without RW. That being said, they run the ball literally at the expense of Russell Wilson's talent as a passer.

RW attempted 427 passes last year. That's asinine, especially considering RW was still able to throw 35 TDs to just 7 INTs. Matt Ryan by comparison threw the same amount of TDs and INTs with 422 completions to 608 attempts. Still impressive numbers given the circumstances, but that's the point--it's the context that counts. If Sark or any OC did that here with Ryan, we'd all be agreeing that he should be fired for wasting Ryan's talent. That's what Seattle has been doing for years and continues to do, but RW still balls out.

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43 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

I don't know if he's not as accurate. Ryan is accurate but he's not Peyton Manning accurate. No QB, whether it be Ryan or Wilson will ever be able to show their true accuracy when being hurried a lot and forced to throw on the run a lot. When they both have a clean pocket both are pretty good. Ryan has an advantage with the weapons he has available

I do agree with all if this. It will be interesting if Seattle opens the playbook up more earlier. I know some of their fans are hoping so

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Wilson is a BETTER third down and redzone quarterback than Ryan because of his running ability...

 

Defense is frozen like when Vick was back there.  Should they rush?  Should they collapse down on the back or drop back in coverage?  That slight pause enables quarterbacks like Russell, Mahomes and Aaron Rodgers to own 3rd down and redzone...

Image result for russell wilson running touchdown gif

Edited by slickgadawg
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4 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

Wilson is a BETTER third down and redzone quarterback than Ryan because of his running ability...

 

Defense is frozen like when Vick was back there.  Should they rush?  Should they collapse down on the back or drop back in coverage?  That slight pause enables quarterbacks like Russell, Mahomes and Aaron Rodgers to own 3rd down and redzone...

Image result for russell wilson running touchdown gif

That play had more to do with Marshawn Lynch

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26 minutes ago, No.11 said:

That run game isn't nearly as good without RW. That being said, they run the ball literally at the expense of Russell Wilson's talent as a passer.

RW attempted 427 passes last year. That's asinine, especially considering RW was still able to throw 35 TDs to just 7 INTs. Matt Ryan by comparison threw the same amount of TDs and INTs with 422 completions to 608 attempts. Still impressive numbers given the circumstances, but that's the point--it's the context that counts. If Sark or any OC did that here with Ryan, we'd all be agreeing that he should be fired for wasting Ryan's talent. That's what Seattle has been doing for years and continues to do, but RW still balls out.

Russ makes the run game. I will agree with that 100%. That offense is made around Wilson and he plays great in it. Russ is a very good QB. But he isn't a top 5 QB to me. And that's just my personal opinion 

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