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Mr. Wilson just got paid


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12 minutes ago, Dr Long Shot said:

Matt would have never been forgiven for that pass lol. But Wilson is "clutch". 

Fascinating to me the anti Matt Ryan bias our own fans have.

Im definitely not anit matt you assume this because our opinions are different.  After this offseason he should have everything around him to hoist the trophy. 

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7 minutes ago, Dr Long Shot said:

Which OL ranking? Not being a **** just genuinely curious because it's the first I hear of it. Matt got sacked a bunch in 2016, but a lot of that had to do with looong developing pass plays dialed up by Shanahan... overall I think our pass blocking was very good that year, plu our run blocking was on point, so I could see top 5 in 2016 for sure. I mean we did put up one of the best offensive seasons of any team in the history of the league, so I won't argue much there.

In 2017  however, we were I think something like the 6th or 7th in sacks given up, but again, that is kind of misleading because Sark was dialing up short patterns and Matt was getting rid of the ball the quickest he has at any point in his entire career. Our run blocking was bad. Overall, I certainly wouldn't rank our OL in 2017 anywhere near the top 5... top 15 if we are being extremely generous. But personally I thought we were a bottom 10 line in 2017 and not much better in 2018.

PFF ranked us 5th in 2016 and 2nd in 2017

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1 minute ago, red falcon said:

Im definitely not anit matt you assume this because our opinions are different.  After this offseason he should have everything around him to hoist the trophy. 

I have no problem with differing opinions, but it seems odd to me to call Rusell Wilson more clutch than Rayn, when It's Ryan that leads all QBs in fourth Q comebacks and game-winning drives since he has been in the league, and it's Wilson that had arguably the least clutch pass in the history of the sport.

It reminds me of the "Wilson elevates teammates, while Matt Ryan does not" argument we encountered earlier in this thread. I mean, it's cool to have opinions, but when those opinions run contrary to all existing evidence, it's also cool to question them. One would think that Falcons fans would tend to stick up for their QB and give him the benefit of the doubt from time to time, but I guess it's the syndrome of not having won a super bowl and needing someone to blame phenomenon. 

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4 hours ago, quickzero said:

Im serious, people think cause Russ got drafted by the Colorado Rockies his arm is magical. Those deep passes Russ throws after scrambling should be picked off most of the time. We beat Wilson and Rodgers in the playoffs and exposed them but people still love to throw Ryan under bus like he didn't outclass both of them in back to back playoff games.

LOL 2.0.

Ryan had an MVP season in 2016 (and arguably as good or better year in 2018) .....but we didn’t “expose” anything about Wilson other than fact falcons were the hotter/better team during that 2016 playoff run.

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2 hours ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Our OL ranked top 5 in both 2016 & 2017

I pulled these numbers from Football Outsiders who I personally trust over PFF. Compare what Wilson has had to work with vs Ryan and it's clear who's had the worse line between the 2 https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017

2008 they were 9th in run blocking, 5th in pass protection

2009 10th run blocking, 6th pass protection

2010 8th run blocking, 3rd in pass protection

2011 27th run blocking, 7th pass protection

2012 24th run blocking, 8th pass protection

2013 24th run blocking, 7th pass protection

2014 14th run blocking, 11th pass protection

2015 15th run blocking, 9th pass protection

2016 10th run blocking, 23rd pass protection--Super bowl season

2017 8th run blocking, 8th pass protection

2018 24th run blocking, 14th pass protection

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11 minutes ago, Dr Long Shot said:

I have no problem with differing opinions, but it seems odd to me to call Rusell Wilson more clutch than Rayn, when It's Ryan that leads all QBs in fourth Q comebacks and game-winning drives since he has been in the league, and it's Wilson that had arguably the least clutch pass in the history of the sport.

It reminds me of the "Wilson elevates teammates, while Matt Ryan does not" argument we encountered earlier in this thread. I mean, it's cool to have opinions, but when those opinions run contrary to all existing evidence, it's also cool to question them. One would think that Falcons fans would tend to stick up for their QB and give him the benefit of the doubt from time to time, but I guess it's the syndrome of not having won a super bowl and needing someone to blame phenomenon. 

You have too much emotion wrapped up in it. I think you are seeing it strictly as a falcons fan and not a football fan. Dont get me wrong matt was great last year.  As another stated most of those combacks were earlier in ryans career, you can make statistics say whatever you want.

 

Edited by red falcon
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30 minutes ago, Dr Long Shot said:

I have no problem with differing opinions, but it seems odd to me to call Rusell Wilson more clutch than Rayn, when It's Ryan that leads all QBs in fourth Q comebacks and game-winning drives since he has been in the league, and it's Wilson that had arguably the least clutch pass in the history of the sport.

It reminds me of the "Wilson elevates teammates, while Matt Ryan does not" argument we encountered earlier in this thread. I mean, it's cool to have opinions, but when those opinions run contrary to all existing evidence, it's also cool to question them. One would think that Falcons fans would tend to stick up for their QB and give him the benefit of the doubt from time to time, but I guess it's the syndrome of not having won a super bowl and needing someone to blame phenomenon. 

You have too much emotion wrappped up in it. I think you are seeing it strictly as a falcon fan and not a football What have those 4th quater comebacks gotten us? Dont get me wrong matt was great last year.  As another stated most of those combacks were earlier in ryans career

 

Edited by red falcon
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22 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

I pulled these numbers from Football Outsiders who I personally trust over PFF. Compare what Wilson has had to work with vs Ryan and it's clear who's had the worse line between the 2 https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017

2008 they were 9th in run blocking, 5th in pass protection

2009 10th run blocking, 6th pass protection

2010 8th run blocking, 3rd in pass protection

2011 27th run blocking, 7th pass protection

2012 24th run blocking, 8th pass protection

2013 24th run blocking, 7th pass protection

2014 14th run blocking, 11th pass protection

2015 15th run blocking, 9th pass protection

2016 10th run blocking, 23rd pass protection--Super bowl season

2017 8th run blocking, 8th pass protection

2018 24th run blocking, 14th pass protection

Gotta admit those rankings don't make much sense to me. Not sure what their adjusted sack% takes into account to make the adjustment. Gave up a whopping 44 sacks in 2013, a year where our line completely fell apart, and we are ranked top 7 that season. I would assume the adjustment places blame on the QB for sacks where he is holding the ball too long, but Matt is consistently one of the best QBs at getting rid of the ball. ESPN QBR also adjusts for sacks caused by the QB and it has Matt Ryan consistently rated better than Wilson.

Someone said earlier you can make statistics say anything you want... well that's doubly true when you make them up completely.

Edited by Dr Long Shot
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9 minutes ago, red falcon said:

You have too much emotion wrapped up in it. I think you are seeing it strictly as a falcons fan and not a football fan. Dont get me wrong matt was great last year.  As another stated most of those combacks were earlier in ryans career, you can make statistics say whatever you want.

 

That's a logical fallacy.  You can't make stats say what you want.  Sure some stats are more meaningful than others.   But when they all point towards the same conclusion, I think it's safe to assume there is some merit.

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Just now, Dr Long Shot said:

Gotta admit those rankings don't make much sense to me. Not sure what their adjusted sack% takes into account to make the adjustment. Gave up a whopping 44 sacks in 2013, a year where our line was completely fell apart, and we are ranked top 7 that season. I would assume the adjustment places blame on the QB for sacks where he is holding the ball too long, but Matt is consistently one of the best QBs at getting rid of the ball. ESPN QBR also adjusts for sacks caused by the QB and it has Matt Ryan consistently rated better than Wilson.

Someone said you can make statistics say anything you want... well that's doubly true when you make them up completely like PFF and the stats above.

The link is there. Pick through it if you want. You can go year to year

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Just now, ya_boi_j said:

The link is there. Pick through it if you want. You can go year to year

I understand the link, I don't understand their data. What is Adjusted Sack% and how is calculated? That's not explained and that's what is ranked above. If you rank by sacks given up the rankings are completely different.

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1 minute ago, Dr Long Shot said:

I understand the link, I don't understand their data. What is Adjusted Sack% and how is calculated? That's not explained and that's what is ranked above. If you rank by sacks given up the rankings are completely different.

It says it in the description and has a link in the description

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14 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

It says it in the description and has a link in the description

I've checked it out but it's not very informative. "Adjusted Sack Rate adds adjustments for opponent quality, as well as down and distance (sacks are more common on third down, especially third-and-long). More here."

More here, doesn't work lol

I'll just add that "adjustments for opponent quality" should be a red flag as to the quality of the statistic. Would be interesting to know exactly how they adjust for that.

Edited by Dr Long Shot
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22 minutes ago, Flying Falcon said:

SB QB Wilson is better.

Just to be funny his SB occurred much earlier in his career. Wilson has become a better QB than he was when he won the SB. His team however was much better when Seattle won the SB. Seattle as a team is not as good now. Teams with good QBs that are being paid will have to learn how to manage the cap better.

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35 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

I pulled these numbers from Football Outsiders who I personally trust over PFF. Compare what Wilson has had to work with vs Ryan and it's clear who's had the worse line between the 2 https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017

2008 they were 9th in run blocking, 5th in pass protection

2009 10th run blocking, 6th pass protection

2010 8th run blocking, 3rd in pass protection

2011 27th run blocking, 7th pass protection

2012 24th run blocking, 8th pass protection

2013 24th run blocking, 7th pass protection

2014 14th run blocking, 11th pass protection

2015 15th run blocking, 9th pass protection

2016 10th run blocking, 23rd pass protection--Super bowl season

2017 8th run blocking, 8th pass protection

2018 24th run blocking, 14th pass protection

The Seahawks in 2015 or 2016 spent under 6 million total on their OL.  Tragic

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11 minutes ago, red falcon said:

You have too much emotion wrappped up in it. I think you are seeing it strictly as a falcon fan and not a football What have those 4th quater comebacks gotten us? Dont get me wrong matt was great last year.  As another stated most of those combacks were earlier in ryans career

 

And did you really tell the only person in this thread using logic to back up his opinion that he's has too much emotion?

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23 minutes ago, Dr Long Shot said:

Pfffffff... What exactly has Wilson done without a number 1 running attack and all world defense?

Don't tell me Ryan doesn't elevate talent when he made players like Michael Jenkins and Harry Douglass relevant. Cinci made no effort whatsoever to keep Sanu who was viewed as a disappointment coming off a brutal 300 yard season and now he is seen as an indispensable key contributor for our team. Odds are if Matt Ryan is throwing you the ball you will be putting up the best numbers of your career. 

Wilson is flashier but waaaay more inconsistent than Matt with a completion percentage in the low 60s. I understand why people who don't watch more than a few highlights of the Seahawks put him on a pedestal. People talk about let's see Matt behind that Seahawks line and seem to conveniently forget that Matt has played behind garbage lines (and no running game) more often than not. Doug Baldwin would be a perennial pro-bowler with Matt Ryan and fans like you would be pointing to that as evidence that Matt needs Baldwin to thrive, smh.

Golden Tate put up three enormous seasons in Detroit after doing jack squat in Seattle but here we go with the narrative that Russell just never got the toys to put up big numbers. Zach Miller a 700 + yard per season receiving TE for his entire career in Oakland saw his production plummet after being paired with Wilson, ditto for Jimmy Graham. But yes, it's Wilson that elevates teammates while Matt Ryan gets carried by his supporting cast who just by sheer chance always seems to put up their best numbers when playing with a Falcons uniform on. lol

Falcons fans are the worst. 

Yeah, this argument seems pretty silly. I get that folks see Wilson's team in the playoffs more and since he doesn't have really well-known weapons and is honestly a good QB in his own right, it seems like the easy answer to give him the lion share of the credit for his team's success. But I'd argue that the Seahawks offense hasn't really had much success and certainly not success in passing. Consider for a moment that the Seattle offense has only finished in the top 10 twice in Wilson's entire career and in both years the rushing attack was top 3 in the league. Here is Seattle's offense since Wilson's arrival

  Total Pass Run
2012 17th  27th  3rd
2013 18th 26th 4th
2014 9th 27th  1st
2015 4th 20th 3rd
2016 12th 10th 25th
2017 15th 14th 23rd
2018 18th 27th  1st


As you can clearly see, the running game has been the backbone of Seattle's offense throughout Wilson's tenure. I do get that Wilson contributes to the run game, but everyone know that the rushing attack was primarily Beast Mode. The Seahawks were a perennial contender when they had a suffocating defense and ran the ball constantly to control the clock. Since Lynch's departure in 2016, they've remained a good team but largely flawed and prone to loses against teams that have good offenses. Their passing game fluctuates wildly and the offense is extremely inconsistent. 

The case is the exact opposite with Matt Ryan who has  been the focal point of the offense since 2011. You pretty much know that when you play the Falcons you'll need to put up points. Matt Ryan has consistently lead the passing offense to be 6th or higher 5 of the last 7 years. That's in spite of the run game being in the bottom half of the league all but 2 of those 7 years. 

  Total Pass Run
2008 6th 14th 2nd
2009 16th 13th 15th
2010 16th 15th 12th
2011 10th 8th 17th
2012 8th 6th 29th
2013 14th 7th 32nd
2014 8th 5th 24th
2015 7th 6th 18th
2016 2nd 3rd 5th
2017 8th 8th 13th
2018 6th 4th 27th

So clearly one QB is the driver of the team's offensive success and the other is the passenger for it. It should be clear which is both. As for the "Russ hasn't had the weapons" argument, that is absolutely true. Not many QBs have the weaponry that Matt has been blessed to have and Matt has taken full advantage of it. I think people assume that because a QB has weapons, he knows how to use them. Golden Tate had monster years when removed from Wilson. Jimmy Graham had monster years before playing with him. Zach MIller virtually disappeared when he came to Seattle. Even now he has some good options in Doug Baldwin and Tyler Lockett. Now I'm not saying Wilson is a bad QB at all, I think he's definitely in the top 8 QBs in the league. He's one of the best QBs when the pocket breaks down. He's near the top of the league at making something out of nothing. But in more ideal circumstances, there are quite a few guys that are just better read, diagnose and deliver passers. I do have the utmost respect for Wilson and think he's one of the best out there.  

Matt is not as good under pressure. That's not to say Matt is bad, just an acknowledgement of how good Russell is. However the same is true of Russell when it comes to scanning and breaking down defenses. He's good, but Matt is one of the best. When Matt has time, he's probably top 3-4 in the league. They are different QBs for sure. I can't say one is better than the other. They are even to me. Depends on what you value more from a QB and how your team is built. If you're starting from scratch, I'd probably take Russ. If you need a guy to come in and lead a team of vets, gimme Matty Ice.

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4 minutes ago, abcranford2 said:

And did you really tell the only person in this thread using logic to back up his opinion that he's has too much emotion?

I did and i will stick to it. Again you can make numbers say what you want. To say youd think fans of the falcons would give matt more respect. That is emotion. 

I took a step back last year because i saw the writing on the wall when the defense went down and we couldnt run block. I knew i was too emotionally invovled. Being upset did nothing for me. I wrote last season off early.  

To say hes the only one using logic is a crime. Again what do we have to show for those 4th quarter comebacks? Only one thing matters in the nfl. 

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1 minute ago, red falcon said:

I did and i will stick to it. Again you can make numbers say what you want. To say youd think fans of the falcons would give matt more respect. That is emotion. 

I took a step back last year because i saw the writing on the wall when the defense went down and we couldnt run block. I knew i was too emotionally invovled. Being upset did nothing for me. I wrote last season off early.  

To say hes the only one using logic is a crime. Again what do we have to show for those 4th quarter comebacks? Only one thing matters in the nfl. 

Championships are all that matter when rating a QB. That's why Eli Manning is hands down the second best QB of his generation, and Trent Dilfer is better than Marino.

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