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Matt Ryan has played with an awful Falcons defense most of his career

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3 hours ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

I’m not disputing that Brady is excellent. But I also don’t believe he became “great” until 2007 and he already had 3 rings at that point. He became great over time with hard work, drive, and mastering the system. And I’ll credit him for that. But I just don’t believe he ever becomes the player that he became in 2007 and beyond if not for Belichick. And that’s why I believe Belichick deserves more credit than Brady

He was great before 2007. He was a first ballot HOFer before 07.  Check his stats....

You dont win 3 SB(back to back) and not consider great. 

He became Elite after 07.

And a coach draws up the plays but It comes down to the player executing the plays. Whether you want to give him the credit or not 

Your field kicker cant kick without the offense putting them in position. 

BB plays a big part in Brady success, yes..but Brady's work ethics took him over the top. Studying, perfecting his ability. Finding ways on making hisself greater..that's the point some of you dont understand 

Your coach does so much, but you the player have to do more to have longevity n success.

 

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Posted (edited)

What the thread starter is missing..is the QB and Coach and players all have to be on the same page.

Adopt a philiosophy that works for all of them. The both of them achieved the success together. BB probably doesnt do what he has done without Brady and Brady probably doesnt do what he has done without BB...

The both are great together and both are great  individually as well..

 

There's plenty of tape n stats to  back that up.

Like are we gonna using this same energy to pick apart J.Montana.

He has the west coast offense, Walsh, ronnie Lott's. Jerry rice. Clark, roger craig..etc..

Like..really 

 

All of this..and I'm still wondering who ever said M.Ryan doesnt belong??

 

Edited by Ghost_02

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2 hours ago, Ghost_02 said:

He was great before 2007. He was a first ballot HOFer before 07.  Check his stats....

You dont win 3 SB(back to back) and not consider great. 

He became Elite after 07.

And a coach draws up the plays but It comes down to the player executing the plays. Whether you want to give him the credit or not 

Your field kicker cant kick without the offense putting them in position. 

BB plays a big part in Brady success, yes..but Brady's work ethics took him over the top. Studying, perfecting his ability. Finding ways on making hisself greater..that's the point some of you dont understand 

Your coach does so much, but you the player have to do more to have longevity n success.

 

Disagree. Coach is hands down the most important thing in football 

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3 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Disagree. Coach is hands down the most important thing in football 

Outside of QB, the NFL is not a player driven league.  

Thats why Belichick should win an MVP one day...lol.  Would be funny

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On 3/8/2019 at 11:26 PM, THEHEADCOACH said:

It's simple, if Ryan and Brady's careers were flipped, so would the rings on their hands. Brady wouldn't have won any SBs here either. Brady being in that system his whole career and great coaching is what sets him apart. 

I don’t think Ryan wins vs the Greatest Show on Turf and I don’t believe he comes back from 28-3.  Whether they beat the Seahawks down 10 points is debatable.  But I think he’s have 3 or 4.

But I get tired of the narrative that NE runs the same scheme every year.  It’s actually the complete opposite:

Belichick reintroduced the 3-4 defense to the league back in the early 2000s. When it got too popular (thanks to the Patriots’ success), he switched back to a 4-3, where he could unearth some cheap gems. He was also an early adopter (around 2011) of the up-tempo spread offensethat’s become ubiquitous in 2018. And he helped change the meaning of what a two tight-end team looked like, using Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez in ways we had never before seen: plodding tight ends were out, pass-catching polar bears were in. Naturally, Belichick now pretty much ignores that tactic. The Patriots have played a total of 12 downs with a running back and two tight ends on the field, far and away the lowest total in the league. What used to be the team’s base strategy is now an afterthought.

Belichick saw a new way to take advantage of opposing teams and morphed. As defenses across the league have evolved to counteract spread offenses, they’re left vulnerable to run-heavy teams. So Belichick’s Patriots have poured resources into developing a sturdy offensive line to power that run game, including the huge left tackle Trent Brown, who stands at 6ft 8in and weighs a hefty 380lbs. They’ve also concentrated on developing the deepest, most flexible running-back room in the league. Sony Michel was the Patriots’ first-round pick in 2018 – a cardinal sin among the more analytically minded who consider running backs less important in an era dominated by the passing game.”

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Another analysis on how the scheme changes:

They are a game-plan organization, looking for smart, versatile players who can help the organization shapeshift on a weekly basis depending on their opponent. Belichick and Tom Brady don't stay married to a specific offensive philosophy for long. Belichick repeatedly says he only worries about putting points on the board, no matter how it gets done. They adjust their offense to their personnel perhaps more than any team. Their philosophy is change. 

Their two playoff games this season illustrate the point perfectly. Against a stout Baltimore Ravensfront, the Patriots barely tried to run the ball. They finished with 14 rushing yards, which was easily the fewest by a winning playoff team ever. In a game in which the Patriots were overmatched physically up front, Belichick pulled out all the stops. The team rolled with a four-man offensive line and declared a skill position player ineligible on many plays, causing confusion for the Ravens. They also had receiver Julian Edelman throw a touchdown pass. They got the ball out of Tom Brady's hands quickly. It was the ultimate case of "finesse" football winning.

One week later, LeGarrette Blount pounded the Indianapolis Colts on the ground for 148 yards. The team employed extra offensive linemen often and played power football. Tom Brady led the team on slow, workmanlike drives highlighted by manageable third downs. This was closer to the Patriots team we saw most of the season. But as we mentioned above: You never see the same Patriots offense for long.

Let's take a look back at how the Patriots have changed their offensive identity during the Belichick-Brady era:

2014: Slow, but steady dominance

The Patriots scored more than 40 points six times including the playoffs, easily more than any other team. But they did it in a far different way than their previous up-tempo approaches. They slow played the opposition with long, painful marches. The Patriotshad 39 drives over 10 plays in the regular season, which was second in the NFL. They added five more such drives in the playoffs.

This is a short-passing offense. They threw the ball on 59.2 percent of their plays, the third highest ratio of the Belichick era. But Brady was not accurate throwing the deep ball down the field, focusing mostly on short passes and looks up the seam to Rob Gronkowski and Julian Edelman. Gronk, Edelman, and Brandon LaFell combined for 248 catches, 3,049 yards, and 23 scores. Brady gets the ball out of his hands quickly, which helps save an uneven offensive line. 

 

 

As Brady gets older, the team relies more and more on using his smarts to quickly assess mismatches, while saving the pounding his body takes. There are fewer long "option routes" for receivers other than Edelman. Brady has the options. 

2013: Landing on power running

Last season perhaps represents New England's malleable approach more than any other. We can break down the season into three distinct phases. Early in the season, Tom Brady struggled more than he had since his first season as starter. He could not get on the same page with receivers. It was a below-average offense that struggled to overcome massive departures (Hernandez, Welker) and injuries (Gronkowski, everyone else). The run game was solid throughout.

Things turned around dramatically Week 9 against Pittsburgh, not long after Gronkowski returned to the lineup. The Patriots figured out how to create yardage inside the hashmarks with Gronk, Julian Edelman and Danny Amendola. Brady was suddenly leading one of the best offenses in the league. The running game also picked up.

Since Gronkowski was lost for the season in Week 14, the Patriots have settled into their power-rushing approach. LeGarrette BlountStevan RidleyShane Vereen and Brandon Bolden represent the deepest and most versatile backfield in Belichick's tenure. This is still a top offense, just different. They have few options on the outside in the pass game, so they are playing to their strengths.

2012: Hurry up!

New England starts playing fast-break offense, helped along by one-word play calls. The emphasis on tempo leads to a lot of tired defenses that can't substitute. The Patriots lead the league in total plays, points and yards. Many teams around the NFL spent the subsequent offseason working on hurry-up approaches. It's not the first time the Patriots helped kick start league-wide trends.

2010-2011: Gronkowski and Hernandez

 

 

Everything changed in the 2010 NFL Draft. New England transitioned to a two-tight end offense under new coordinator Bill O'Brien. The approach made life difficult for opposing defensive coordinators who tried to match up to the Patriots. In the preseason, magazines had the Patriots possibly missing the playoffs, but New England wound up leading the league in points and got the No. 1 seed after the 2010 season. (They lost to the Jets.) By the end of 2011's AFC title season, many teams around the league were copying the Patriots' approach.

In Brady's first year back from ACL surgery, they basically tried to recapture their '07 magic. Everything went through Wes Welker and Randy Moss. It was the rare Patriots offense that lost steam as the season went on, which meant change was coming.

2008: The Cassel year

This was the ultimate proof that Belichick (and coordinator Josh McDaniels) can adapt at the highest level. The Patriots managed to win 11 games and finished eighth in points with Matt Cassel at the helm. They led the league in first downs by playing a ball-control offense, with an emphasis on play action and an effective four-pronged rushing attack, including guys like Sammy Morris and LaMont Jordan. There's an argument to be made that the Patriots were better on offense in '08 than in some of their early Super Bowl seasons.

2007: Star Wars

The ultimate proof that Brady was a fantasy footballrock star waiting to happen; he just needed the weapons. The Patriots set every record imaginable while spreading defenses out and throwing like a college team. Randy Moss set the receiving touchdown record. Wes Welker led the league in receptions. Even Donte' Stallworth got some. The rest of the league wasn't ready for New England's bombs-away aggressiveness, especially early in the season. Spread offenses soon became the norm.

NFL image

2006: Talent craters

Brady seems to get more credit for the beginning of his career, when he won titles, but this is the season when Brady's career really took off. He's played far better from 2006 to 2013 than he did early in his career, which is a reminder of how many things have to come together to win a title.

Brady's best receivers in '06 were Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney and Doug Gabriel. The run game, led by a declining Corey Dillon and Laurence Maroney, was below average. And Brady still came a few minutes away from dragging the team to the Super Bowl.

2005: McDaniels shift

McDaniels wasn't officially the offensive coordinator until 2006, but the team's quest for a three-peat started a big change in philosophy. The Patriots were second in the NFL in pass attempts in '05, only one season after being 22nd. They had to throw because the defense and running game fell apart, much like '02. Early in Brady's career, the Patriots threw as much as they needed to. They didn't truly embrace a pass-first philosophy until they had more weapons.

2004: Dillon dominates

Perhaps this is the group most similar to the 2013 Patriots. Corey Dillon spearheaded an effective power-running game. The Patriots didn't throw the ball much, but they were far more efficient and explosive than when they threw in previous seasons. Deion Branch, David Patten and David Givens all took turns as favorite receivers, with Branch dominating the Super Bowl.

2003: Spreading the wealth

 

 

People think back on the '03 and '04 Patriots teams as juggernauts, but their offense battled for everything it got. There were no stars beyond Brady. The '03 team relied on winning insane, close games. Teams were never quite sure how the Patriots beat them (sound familiar?). The defense was first in points allowed, but the passing game only had one receiver over 550 yards -- Branch at 803. Four other players gained between 400 and 550 yards -- Kevin Faulk, Daniel Graham, David Givens and Troy Brown. Brady was below the league average in yards per attempt. No running back topped 650 yards rushing.

This was the height of New England's no stars, no frills, limited offense. 

2002: Growing pains

Brady was forced to throw a ton in his second season as starter because the running game and defense both slumped. Brady made some personal strides, but he wasn't terribly efficient during a 9-7 year.

2001: Staying out of trouble

In Brady's first season as a starter, the offense was a run-heavy group that tried not to turn the ball over, allowing the defense to win games. Antowain Smith was the team's bell-cow running back, while Brown enjoyed his only season as a true No. 1 option.

It's remarkable that the Patriots have been title contenders for 14 seasons, and Brady is still atop the game. In most ways, he's a superior player to the one that won his three titles. Belichick has kept that window open by never staying the same for long.”

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Disagree. Coach is hands down the most important thing in football 

You do realize coaches get fired before a QBs right....if you dont have a QB, you dont have crap....

Why you think they get paid more. Why Arizona is drafting another QB, why Elway traded for another starter..

And that's not to say Coaches aren't important or BB isn't important. But the players make "the engine go.."

Edited by Ghost_02

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Good detail article..but according to some posters here...."he has been playing In the system his whole career. He is not as great without BB....."

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31 minutes ago, Ghost_02 said:

You do realize coaches get fired before a QBs right....if you dont have a QB, you dont have crap....

Why you think they get paid more. Why Arizona is drafting another QB, why Elway traded for another starter..

And that's not to say Coaches aren't important or BB isn't important. But the players make "the engine go.."

A QB is one position out of 22 starters. Sure it’s the most important position. But plenty of teams have won Super Bowls with average QBs. The best QB of the last 20 years outside of Brady are Peyton, Rodgers, and Brees. Each has exactly one ring in their prime. The QB always gets more credit for success and more blame for failure. Coaches get fired because their position is the most critical with the highest expectations. 

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5 hours ago, Ghost_02 said:

Aaron Rodgers didnt have this "superior "coach or defense and won a SB....

Rodgers defense was ranked #2 and had the defensive MVP when they won the SB...And a ton of weapons

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Falconsin2012 said:

I don’t think Ryan wins vs the Greatest Show on Turf and I don’t believe he comes back from 28-3.  Whether they beat the Seahawks down 10 points is debatable.  But I think he’s have 3 or 4.

But I get tired of the narrative that NE runs the same scheme every year.  It’s actually the complete opposite:

Belichick reintroduced the 3-4 defense to the league back in the early 2000s. When it got too popular (thanks to the Patriots’ success), he switched back to a 4-3, where he could unearth some cheap gems. He was also an early adopter (around 2011) of the up-tempo spread offensethat’s become ubiquitous in 2018. And he helped change the meaning of what a two tight-end team looked like, using Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez in ways we had never before seen: plodding tight ends were out, pass-catching polar bears were in. Naturally, Belichick now pretty much ignores that tactic. The Patriots have played a total of 12 downs with a running back and two tight ends on the field, far and away the lowest total in the league. What used to be the team’s base strategy is now an afterthought.

Belichick saw a new way to take advantage of opposing teams and morphed. As defenses across the league have evolved to counteract spread offenses, they’re left vulnerable to run-heavy teams. So Belichick’s Patriots have poured resources into developing a sturdy offensive line to power that run game, including the huge left tackle Trent Brown, who stands at 6ft 8in and weighs a hefty 380lbs. They’ve also concentrated on developing the deepest, most flexible running-back room in the league. Sony Michel was the Patriots’ first-round pick in 2018 – a cardinal sin among the more analytically minded who consider running backs less important in an era dominated by the passing game.”

Brady didn't beat the greatest show on turf, he had a ton of help, the Patriots won with a ton of help too. So it's very likely they win that game reguardless.

Brady didn't do nothing, but toss the ball to wide open WRs on a exhausted defense in our SB. 28-3 was blown because of our stupid coaching staff, not because of the QBs. Matt may have never got down 28-3 in the first place.

Ryan always plays the Seahawks tough, so no worries there.

Truth is, nothing would change, except we may be worse and Brady out of the league. Brady may not survive taking all the shots Ryan has taken and without a defense constantly bailing him out. The Patriots have the ability to change alot of things constantly, because the coach has been there so long and Brady has been there too. They build their teams the right way and have tons of experience and knowledge to pull from. ( Probably some videos too) 

It's all just Guessing. Ryan may have won more than Brady,Maybe a few less. Just depends on how the ball bounces. Brady is a Great QB, but he's not some QB god everyone makes him out to be. He's a good QB with a great Coach, team, and situation. He's been blessed with QB heaven. He's learned alot from that consistent situation around him, his confidence has grown, and made him great. He wouldn't have been the same outside of New England.

Edited by THEHEADCOACH

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2 hours ago, THEHEADCOACH said:

Brady didn't beat the greatest show on turf, he had a ton of help, the Patriots won with a ton of help too. So it's very likely they win that game reguardless.

Brady didn't do nothing, but toss the ball to wide open WRs on a exhausted defense in our SB. 28-3 was blown because of our stupid coaching staff, not because of the QBs. Matt may have never got down 28-3 in the first place.

Ryan always plays the Seahawks tough, so no worries there.

Truth is, nothing would change, except we may be worse and Brady out of the league. Brady may not survive taking all the shots Ryan has taken and without a defense constantly bailing him out. The Patriots have the ability to change alot of things constantly, because the coach has been there so long and Brady has been there too. They build their teams the right way and have tons of experience and knowledge to pull from. ( Probably some videos too) 

It's all just Guessing. Ryan may have won more than Brady,Maybe a few less. Just depends on how the ball bounces. Brady is a Great QB, but he's not some QB god everyone makes him out to be. He's a good QB with a great Coach, team, and situation. He's been blessed with QB heaven. He's learned alot from that consistent situation around him, his confidence has grown, and made him great. He wouldn't have been the same outside of New England.

So Brady washes out in Atlanta & NE has 7 titles in NE. 

K...

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9 hours ago, Falconsin2012 said:

So Brady washes out in Atlanta & NE has 7 titles in NE. 

K...

I think you’d see much of the same, tons of impressive come from behind game winning drives, but  once he hit playoffs his pay would be all world, maybe even an MVP getting tossed in, but in playoffs his supporting cast,including offensive line, defense, special teams,  coaching, clock management, game planning and in game adjustments would be exposed as inferior against some of the playoff teams leading to same results, close some years, perhaps even a season with an offensive juggernaut top 10 in NFL history, but at end of day, still no banana.

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