egoprime II

O Line Philosophy Makes No Sense

81 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Lornoth said:

I'd love for one of the people constantly advocating for bigger bodies to do some research and show me the correlation between weight and pass blocking efficiency. That would be truly enlightening. 

We've tried that for a decade now it does not work, time to try something new

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32 minutes ago, MAD597 said:

We've tried that for a decade now it does not work, time to try something new

...that's not how football works dude. We've run several run blocking schemes with vastly different players of all sizes in the last decade.

What are your thoughts on this besides "big fat dudes?" 

JDaveG likes this

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All things being equal, bigger is better and the ZBS does not mean you can go cheap and/or neglect the lines and think athleticism will prevail with a severe size disadvantage. Big and athletic beats light and athletic always and it is time for this organization to drop the search for the perfect cornerback and linebacker and build the foundations of winjing.

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4 hours ago, MAD597 said:

We've tried that for a decade now it does not work, time to try something new

We had a top 3 OLine in the NFL during our SB run, and they were the lightest unit in the league. The 'new' is finding better players, not heavier ones.

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7 minutes ago, Lornoth said:

We had a top 3 OLine in the NFL during our SB run, and they were the lightest unit in the league. The 'new' is finding better players, not heavier ones.

Better players are usually the heavier ones. There are big athletic linemen out there. You have to be serious about finding them.

egoprime II likes this

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2 minutes ago, Doctor Kildare said:

Better players are usually the heavier ones. There are big athletic linemen out there. You have to be serious about finding them.

Can you back that up with something? 

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25 minutes ago, Lornoth said:

Can you back that up with something? 

Ten years of Dimitroff's finesse failures on the line is proof enough for me. I'm tired of prioritizing perimeter players while hoping to just get by on the lines.

egoprime II likes this

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Here's some weights for you guys to mull over. For fun, see if you can guess which is which. They are Two of the best OLines (Colts and Titans), two of the worst (Cards and Raiders), and us (Falcons). Here's a hint: You can't because they're all virtually the same.

Team 1:

LT 309 lbs

LG 314

C 311 

RG 308

RT 315

 

Team 2:

LT 309

LG 330

C 308

RG 300

RT 308

 

Team 3:

LT 315

LG 311

C 307

RG 315

RT 326

 

Team 4:

LT 311

LG 330

C 309

RG 310

RT 315

 

Team 5:

LT 309

LG 330

C 300

RG 345

RT 305

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What's that saying, "There's good, cheap, and fast. Pick 2 out of 3."

It's the same with OL. Pick agile, strong, or big. 2 out of 3. To get 3 out of 3 requires a top 5 pick. 

Edited by since68andcounting

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9 hours ago, Lornoth said:

Here's some weights for you guys to mull over. For fun, see if you can guess which is which. They are Two of the best OLines (Colts and Titans), two of the worst (Cards and Raiders), and us (Falcons). Here's a hint: You can't because they're all virtually the same.

Team 1:

LT 309 lbs

LG 314

C 311 

RG 308

RT 315

 

Team 2:

LT 309

LG 330

C 308

RG 300

RT 308

 

Team 3:

LT 315

LG 311

C 307

RG 315

RT 326

 

Team 4:

LT 311

LG 330

C 309

RG 310

RT 315

 

Team 5:

LT 309

LG 330

C 300

RG 345

RT 305

We're team 1 because we don't have a player on either side of the ball over 320

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My guess is team 3 is the Colts because they're built bigger on the outside. Team 5 is the Titans, built bigger at guard because Mariotta is shorter. We are team 1. I'm certain of that one.

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16 hours ago, Francis York Morgan said:

...that's not how football works dude. We've run several run blocking schemes with vastly different players of all sizes in the last decade.

What are your thoughts on this besides "big fat dudes?" 

"thats not how football works" should be pinned at the top of this forum. 

Its as close to being an evergreen comment as exists on this board. 

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16 hours ago, MAD597 said:

We've tried that for a decade now it does not work, time to try something new

We had one of the very best OLs in the league for 2+ seasons.....

And our "ZOMG BAD OL" year in 2018 was still above average. 

It might be time to put more effort into contextualizing what OL play in the NFL actually looks like. 

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11 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

We had one of the very best OLs in the league for 2+ seasons.....

And our "ZOMG BAD OL" year in 2018 was still above average. 

It might be time to put more effort into contextualizing what OL play in the NFL actually looks like. 

I think its time to just let the people who don't understand football, have their own sandbox to play in. "Fat people make better Linemen" and "MAtt Ryan salary hinders our team" are both absurd. BTW Matt Ryan with the 14th cap hit of QBs... 

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16 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

"thats not how football works" should be pinned at the top of this forum. 

Its as close to being an evergreen comment as exists on this board. 

Yes

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On 2/6/2019 at 11:30 PM, egoprime II said:

All that is fine, for running the ball.   But when its time to pass, a QB needs a pocket to step up into.  That requires a certain size-strength-technique style of play, in order to stone DTs at, or near, the LOS.   When it comes to that kind of OG, Levitre is the closest thing we have had.   And now he is gone.

Currently, not one single OG on our roster is a good pass blocker.  All of them are on our roster because they fit the run blocking we do.   There is a reason ZBS is considered a "finesse" style of play; it results in subpar pass protection.

Brees won a Super Bowl in large part because he had two Pro Bowl quality OGs up front.   Matt Ryan has played well despite having subpar pass protection throughout his career.   Really, the Falcons organisation, and us fans, take Ryan's health for granted.   No one wants to see Ryan get hurt, but if he keeps getting hit and sacked like this....

 

Thus is false. You’ve had some great ZBS lines throughout the nfl for decades. It’s more than weight. It’s foowork and technique and the one thing nobody is talking about. Cohesion. Being an athletic lineman doesn’t mean you can’t block. I’ve never understood the weight argument. I’ve seen, and you too, do many heavy guys be softer than tissue. It all starts from the athletic ability. THEN the heart and determination with work ethic. The issue for us simply is talent based. Once Levitre went down, then fusco, the line went down. Beadles was actually decent and I liked his performance better than fusco’s. Now everybody misses Chester huh? The board couldn’t stand him but he was good. Just because you’re the worst on a GOOD line doesn’t mean you’re not good. Now y’all see the difference. We had the same type athletic and smart line. What’s the difference? Talent took a hit. BUT it was because of the injuries sustained as well. And Foreal most of our pass blocking issues came because for a period we couldn’t run the ball. It ALL starts with the ability to run. It makes pass blocking easier. Running effectively makes EVERYTHING better. It wears down the dline and keeps the offense balanced. I agree we need to fix the line but heavy doesn’t translate to better. Strength is needed yes. But the heavy misconception is ridiculous. 

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11 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

Thus is false. You’ve had some great ZBS lines throughout the nfl for decades. It’s more than weight. It’s foowork and technique and the one thing nobody is talking about. Cohesion. Being an athletic lineman doesn’t mean you can’t block. I’ve never understood the weight argument. I’ve seen, and you too, do many heavy guys be softer than tissue. It all starts from the athletic ability. THEN the heart and determination with work ethic. The issue for us simply is talent based. Once Levitre went down, then fusco, the line went down. Beadles was actually decent and I liked his performance better than fusco’s. Now everybody misses Chester huh? The board couldn’t stand him but he was good. Just because you’re the worst on a GOOD line doesn’t mean you’re not good. Now y’all see the difference. We had the same type athletic and smart line. What’s the difference? Talent took a hit. BUT it was because of the injuries sustained as well. And Foreal most of our pass blocking issues came because for a period we couldn’t run the ball. It ALL starts with the ability to run. It makes pass blocking easier. Running effectively makes EVERYTHING better. It wears down the dline and keeps the offense balanced. I agree we need to fix the line but heavy doesn’t translate to better. Strength is needed yes. But the heavy misconception is ridiculous. 

Yep and you think they will know this with Lamar Holmes.

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15 hours ago, Doctor Kildare said:

Better players are usually the heavier ones. There are big athletic linemen out there. You have to be serious about finding them.

Insanely false. 

Undersized great players 

Warren Sapp

John randle 

Enmitt Smith

Barry sanders

Walter Payton 

Aaron Donald

Russell Wilson

Charles Leno

Elvis Dumervil

Dwight Freeney

Mike Singletary

Von Miller

Ray Lewis

 

And that’s just off top of my head. Many more throughout history  

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Love it when @TheFatboi graces us with his knowledge. 

Thank you larry. I’ve been having the same argument with my dad and one of his best friends. They seem to think heavy is the end all be all. But in the same breath they love Aaron Donald and Grady Jarrett. Go figure?! Smh 

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10 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

Insanely false. 

Undersized great players 

Warren Sapp

John randle 

Enmitt Smith

Barry sanders

Walter Payton 

Aaron Donald

Russell Wilson

Charles Leno

Elvis Dumervil

Dwight Freeney

Mike Singletary

 

And that’s just off top of my head. Many more throughout history  

 

 

 

 

But what if I told you fat men are the best at physical contests?

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Just now, TheFatboi said:

Thank you larry. I’ve been having the same argument with my dad and one of his best friends. They seem to think heavy is the end all be all. But in the same breath they love Aaron Donald and Grady Jarrett. Go figure?! Smh 

Its one of those things where its not totally irrelevant but its not a defining thing either. And most of the time, we're talking about pretty small differences in weight. When you're an elite athlete (which pretty much everyone in the NFL is, albeit to different degrees), the difference between 295 and 310 just isnt that significant. Nowhere near as significant as technique, leverage, functional strength, etc.

Just find good players, ya know? 

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