egoprime II

O Line Philosophy Makes No Sense

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When looking for Offensive Guards, the Falcons emphasis is on players who fit ZBS style run blocking.
 
The qualities that make an OG good at ZBS run blocking tends to make those same players inferior pass protectors. Heavier, stronger DT's tend to overpower interior ZBS O lines, in particular the guards, collapsing passing pockets.
 
The NFL has become a passing league, where teams pass more than they run.  Sometimes a -lot- more (see Kyle S. as Falcons OC).
 
Currently the Falcons look for O linemen who can perform in ZBS run blocking schemes, then tailor our pass protection around them.  Since we pass more than we run, shouldn't the Falcons braintrust emphasize pass blocking instead, especially on the interior of our O line? THEN tailor our run schemes around those players?
 
Edited by egoprime II

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In theory it shouldn't work that way.

Generally, your more agile, nimble OL are good pass protectors.  And then you take them and make them into run blockers by using a movement oriented system.

I agree that's not what's happening, but you should be able to do it because of the system.  But yes, they have to be good at pass pro first.  Then you teach them the run game.

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1 hour ago, egoprime II said:
When looking for Offensive Guards, the Falcons emphasis is on players who fit ZBS style run blocking.
 
The qualities that make an OG good at ZBS run blocking tends to make those same players inferior pass protectors. Heavier, stronger DT's tend to overpower interior ZBS O lines, in particular the guards, collapsing passing pockets.
 
The NFL has become a passing league, where teams pass more than they run.  Sometimes a -lot- more (see Kyle S. as Falcons OC).
 
Currently the Falcons look for O linemen who can perform in ZBS run blocking schemes, then tailor our pass protection around them.  Since we pass more than we run, shouldn't the Falcons braintrust emphasize pass blocking instead, especially on the interior of our O line? THEN tailor our run schemes around those players?
 

Been thinking this for some time now.

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1 hour ago, egoprime II said:
When looking for Offensive Guards, the Falcons emphasis is on players who fit ZBS style run blocking.
 
The qualities that make an OG good at ZBS run blocking tends to make those same players inferior pass protectors. Heavier, stronger DT's tend to overpower interior ZBS O lines, in particular the guards, collapsing passing pockets.
 
The NFL has become a passing league, where teams pass more than they run.  Sometimes a -lot- more (see Kyle S. as Falcons OC).
 
Currently the Falcons look for O linemen who can perform in ZBS run blocking schemes, then tailor our pass protection around them.  Since we pass more than we run, shouldn't the Falcons braintrust emphasize pass blocking instead, especially on the interior of our O line? THEN tailor our run schemes around those players?
 

Yes, but that makes since, Dummy-troff doesn't ever make since 

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1 hour ago, egoprime II said:
When looking for Offensive Guards, the Falcons emphasis is on players who fit ZBS style run blocking.
 
The qualities that make an OG good at ZBS run blocking tends to make those same players inferior pass protectors. Heavier, stronger DT's tend to overpower interior ZBS O lines, in particular the guards, collapsing passing pockets.
 
The NFL has become a passing league, where teams pass more than they run.  Sometimes a -lot- more (see Kyle S. as Falcons OC).
 
Currently the Falcons look for O linemen who can perform in ZBS run blocking schemes, then tailor our pass protection around them.  Since we pass more than we run, shouldn't the Falcons braintrust emphasize pass blocking instead, especially on the interior of our O line? THEN tailor our run schemes around those players?
 

i'd love to have two hybrid Gs, around 330, that can move. I know those guys are hard to find but, I'd like to see what we look like with two.

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Quality of OL isn't about weight. You can have a 320 lb OL and they can be garbage (Greg Robinson). It's about footwork, and technique. Quality of OL has dwindled in the college game and it's difficult to teach them Power man principles. In reality zbs is both cost and time effective, and all you need is athletic OL that can get out in space.

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1 hour ago, Francis York Morgan said:

Athletic =/= Small and Weak

There are powerful guys who can move. Based off what Quinn said, we're looking to add more of them this offseason.

This ^^

I think in the past we might have made some assumptions about some more powerful guys not being able to move well enough for our scheme. I heard Mike Munchak interviewed during SB week on local radio, and he said that had been Dimi's biggest mistake in evaluating O-linemen. He said a good coach could have taken a guy like Larry Allen and made him great in the ZBS. Athletes are athletes.

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1 hour ago, Dutty Ole Bird said:

Quality of OL isn't about weight. You can have a 320 lb OL and they can be garbage (Greg Robinson). It's about footwork, and technique. Quality of OL has dwindled in the college game and it's difficult to teach them Power man principles. In reality zbs is both cost and time effective, and all you need is athletic OL that can get out in space.

All that is fine, for running the ball.   But when its time to pass, a QB needs a pocket to step up into.  That requires a certain size-strength-technique style of play, in order to stone DTs at, or near, the LOS.   When it comes to that kind of OG, Levitre is the closest thing we have had.   And now he is gone.

Currently, not one single OG on our roster is a good pass blocker.  All of them are on our roster because they fit the run blocking we do.   There is a reason ZBS is considered a "finesse" style of play; it results in subpar pass protection.

Brees won a Super Bowl in large part because he had two Pro Bowl quality OGs up front.   Matt Ryan has played well despite having subpar pass protection throughout his career.   Really, the Falcons organisation, and us fans, take Ryan's health for granted.   No one wants to see Ryan get hurt, but if he keeps getting hit and sacked like this....

 

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23 minutes ago, egoprime II said:

All that is fine, for running the ball.   But when its time to pass, a QB needs a pocket to step up into.  That requires a certain size-strength-technique style of play, in order to stone DTs at, or near, the LOS.   When it comes to that kind of OG, Levitre is the closest thing we have had.   And now he is gone.

Currently, not one single OG on our roster is a good pass blocker.  All of them are on our roster because they fit the run blocking we do.   There is a reason ZBS is considered a "finesse" style of play; it results in subpar pass protection.

Brees won a Super Bowl in large part because he had two Pro Bowl quality OGs up front.   Matt Ryan has played well despite having subpar pass protection throughout his career.   Really, the Falcons organisation, and us fans, take Ryan's health for granted.   No one wants to see Ryan get hurt, but if he keeps getting hit and sacked like this....

 

Which is why I am in favor of bringing back levtire and drafting lindstrom. Sign Daryl Williams and all of a sudden we will have a top 5 OL.

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1 minute ago, Dutty Ole Bird said:

Which is why I am in favor of bringing back levtire and drafting lindstrom. Sign Daryl Williams and all of a sudden we will have a top 5 OL.

I don't think it's that easy of a fix. 

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Just now, Hurry_Up_And_Buy said:

I don't think it's that easy of a fix. 

Why not? They'll have an entire season plus OTA and training camps to acclimate. We will have continuity by only replacing 2 positions. 

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1 hour ago, Dutty Ole Bird said:

Which is why I am in favor of bringing back levtire and drafting lindstrom. Sign Daryl Williams and all of a sudden we will have a top 5 OL.

Levitre can’t stay healthy though 

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1 hour ago, NeonDeion said:

Levitre can’t stay healthy though 

Even if Levitre was signed to, say, a reasonable two year deal with a low signing bonus.... the Falcons would have to have Levitre's replacement on the roster at the start of the 2019 season.   Just in case.  And I don't see that player on our roster at this time.  

Now, TD -could- draft a young player and ask Levitre to play the position while the rookie gets up to speed.   That I could see.

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12 hours ago, egoprime II said:
When looking for Offensive Guards, the Falcons emphasis is on players who fit ZBS style run blocking.
 
The qualities that make an OG good at ZBS run blocking tends to make those same players inferior pass protectors. Heavier, stronger DT's tend to overpower interior ZBS O lines, in particular the guards, collapsing passing pockets.
 
The NFL has become a passing league, where teams pass more than they run.  Sometimes a -lot- more (see Kyle S. as Falcons OC).
 
Currently the Falcons look for O linemen who can perform in ZBS run blocking schemes, then tailor our pass protection around them.  Since we pass more than we run, shouldn't the Falcons braintrust emphasize pass blocking instead, especially on the interior of our O line? THEN tailor our run schemes around those players?
 

You are looking at it in black and white and that not telling the whole story.

The coaching tree is the Walsh tree. Seifert, Holmgren, both Shanahans, Andy reid, Kubiak, and Doug Peterson. This WCO with zone run blocking has won many super bowls. The reason it works is because of play action, bootleg and effective running. They all slow the pass rush. Play calling and set up is paramount. Present the same formation and run different action out of it the set. The offense philosophy is you dont need all pro's at each spot, instead you win with technique and then deception. You don't need world beaters at guard if your zone run is working, which then makes play action work. All the pieces work together to make the blocking style work without requiring "fat boys".

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I think dumping our blocking TE and blocking FB was also a bad move. Even if you don't have the best OL if you have a good blocking TE and FB you can supplement that.

I just do not understand how average fans year after year can easily see the problems with both our OL and DL and yet these issues go on year after year and even get worse.

Why for so long did our coaches and front office think being 20 lbs under weight on both lines was a good idea? Did they not see how much we get pushed around and dominated? Did they not see how Ryan has no time and has to run for his life or throw in one second? Did they not see how we never get consistent pressure on the opposing QB?

These coaches are paid a lot of money and some how they keep missing this obvious thing that we all see just watching games and highlights on TV.

This team needs to make a REAL long term effort each and every year to make OL and DL a priority. Every year this needs to happen so every year we have made a large effort to keep improving OL and DL.

A solid and strong OL and DL can mask injuries in other area's of your team and greatly improve how effective your skill players are.

If this team is looking to create an identity going forward the best one we can do is to be mean and tough up front. Build that, draft huge mean and nasty players on both lines, create an rep around this team that our front lines will destroy you and watch us win more consistently.

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10 hours ago, Dutty Ole Bird said:

Quality of OL isn't about weight. You can have a 320 lb OL and they can be garbage (Greg Robinson). It's about footwork, and technique. Quality of OL has dwindled in the college game and it's difficult to teach them Power man principles. In reality zbs is both cost and time effective, and all you need is athletic OL that can get out in space.

  1. You are correct it's about athleticism more than size. Mike Shanahan drafted Trent Williams #4 overall and he's huge but extremely athletic. 
  2. It's extremely common to say colleges don't teach offensive linemen anymore but many of the best blockers have come from college spread offenses and been good quickly in the pros. Urban Meyer has been producing some of the best linemen for the last decade plus. Most of the Alabama linemen have been disappointing. 
  3. You are correct there is a cost factor. With the salary cap and slotted draft picks, you simply can't afford premium resources into every position group on your team. The ZBS allows you to save your high picks and big money for other positions by not using them on interior linemen. But obviously at a certain point if it gets to be enough of a problem you have to do something. 
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12 hours ago, Falcanuck said:

Pass pro doesn’t change, ZBS or power, both types of guards should be able to pass block. So there’s no philosophy that emphasizes ZBS and not pass pro or vice versa. 

 

12 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

All of y’all who want to go to straight man blocking would be shocked to find out how many teams you think are good at pass blocking run zone blocking schemes. 

Truths. Most folks just want change because they want something ‘new’, wondering if the scheme’s the problem, not the personnel. 

Grass looks kinda brown on the other side to me.

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