atljbo

Ed Oliver

101 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, Stryka said:

Exactly what people are missing.  We need that base DE that can be stout vs run and rush the passer.  Micheal Bennett is the prototype and that's what I want.  I don't want a 290 lbs penetrator next to Grady, I also don't want another 245 lbs DE playing in base defense.  We need to replace Shelby and Reed and I think we can get a guy who does what they do but better.

https://www.sportstalkatl.com/falcons-3-players-to-keep-an-eye-on-in-free-agency/

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17 hours ago, vel said:

Exactly. Oliver is a gap shooter, but the lack of sacks worries me because that tells me something isn't translating. Can't use the "well he's doubled" card when he doesn't seem to have an issue with that getting TFLs in the run game. And like you said, unless he's coming in day one and putting up over 6 sacks, Crawford is already there. 

Did you miss the /Brockers part? He's not been paired with another undersized DT. The Rams aren't fools. They get a true 1T to maximize Donald's mismatch playing 3T. He was great with Brockers, but he put up legendary numbers with Suh next to him. 

Great post. Valid point I’ve been banging in regarding the lack of sacks. That’s a valid question to ask on a potential top 15 pick

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26 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

Great post. Valid point I’ve been banging in regarding the lack of sacks. That’s a valid question to ask on a potential top 15 pick

No one asked that question of Gerald McCoy or Fletcher Cox. Both went top 15 and their teams haven't looked back since. Aaron Donald has just skewed what 'good' college production looks like.

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This dude gets in the backfield on passing downs and running downs. 

33 career games:

53.5 TFL, 13.5 Sacks, 14 PBU, 23 Hurries, and 6 FF. 

That’s a disruptive player right there. I see most concerns are his ability to finish sacks, but is that not correctable? It was for Fletcher Cox (had less sacks per season on average than Oliver). He’s still young and has insane traits. He’s super raw and has these numbers despite not having polished hand usage. This dude can collapse a pocket which should help our DEs feast. I think Simmons is a better fit, but this guy is going to be good. 

To those saying he’s weak, that’s a joke. Don’t be lazy and look at his size and judge he’s weak. He will have an insane combine and has freaky strength for a man his size. I think he has Probowl level talent. 

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1 hour ago, Smiler11 said:

No one asked that question of Gerald McCoy or Fletcher Cox. Both went top 15 and their teams haven't looked back since. Aaron Donald has just skewed what 'good' college production looks like.

Fletcher Cox is 6’4” 310. McCoy was 6’4” 295 pounds at combine. Neither were undersized. Both were recognized as having size and strength measurables that correctly projected they could disrupt both pass and run.

lets see measurables of Oliver. Think they are similar to fletch and McCoy?

no one is suggesting that he doesn’t use leverage to compensate for his size concerns. But unlike Cox and McCoy or Donald for that matter, Oliver did not play against power 5 teams. You’ve got to Ask yourself why so few sacks when you have a prospect who’s undersized and plays a lower level of competition. Particularly, if his opponents are navy, smu, Tulane ..etc 

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1 hour ago, Smiler11 said:

No one asked that question of Gerald McCoy or Fletcher Cox. Both went top 15 and their teams haven't looked back since. Aaron Donald has just skewed what 'good' college production looks like.

And Donald fell because of lack of size. His production was wild in college. He did it in the ACC compared to the AAC and still fell. McCoy and Cox did their work in much better conferences. Oliver did it vs a bunch of guys who won't sniff a practice squad. Again, the same questions were made regarding Mack vs Clowney. 

If we had a 6'4 310lb DT already, then I'd be all for adding Oliver. But adding another smaller DT just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when Oliver is expected to be a maxed out guy at 6'1 ~275ish. Acting as if there shouldn't be any questions around Oliver is ambitious. 

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1 minute ago, vel said:

And Donald fell because of lack of size. His production was wild in college. He did it in the ACC compared to the AAC and still fell. McCoy and Cox did their work in much better conferences. Oliver did it vs a bunch of guys who won't sniff a practice squad. Again, the same questions were made regarding Mack vs Clowney. 

If we had a 6'4 310lb DT already, then I'd be all for adding Oliver. But adding another smaller DT just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when Oliver is expected to be a maxed out guy at 6'1 ~275ish. Acting as if there shouldn't be any questions around Oliver is ambitious. 

I just wrote the same thing. Funny you picked 6’”4” 310 which is cox height/weight 

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On 1/22/2019 at 4:20 AM, Vandy said:

Just need a few QB hungry teams ahead of us to over-draft QBs.....

No matter what, we’re gonna get a good player at #14...

No, a good player will be there. If our FO trips over their shoelaces trying to draft OL again...

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15 minutes ago, Pacific_Falcon said:

No, a good player will be there. If our FO trips over their shoelaces trying to draft OL again...

I could see them reaching and drafting someone like Elgton Jenkins. 

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29 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

Fletcher Cox is 6’4” 310. McCoy was 6’4” 295 pounds at combine. Neither were undersized. Both were recognized as having size and strength measurables that correctly projected they could disrupt both pass and run.

lets see measurables of Oliver. Think they are similar to fletch and McCoy?

no one is suggesting that he doesn’t use leverage to compensate for his size concerns. But unlike Cox and McCoy or Donald for that matter, Oliver did not play against power 5 teams. You’ve got to Ask yourself why so few sacks when you have a prospect who’s undersized and plays a lower level of competition. Particularly, if his opponents are navy, smu, Tulane ..etc 

Like I said, I’m a Simmons fan over Oliver, but I’m telling you Oliver will have an insane combine. 

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On 1/21/2019 at 9:50 PM, atljbo said:

 

1. Yea he is athletic *** ****.

2. He seem to have good enough length for his size (arm length)

3. I dont think he is 6'3 ... He looks like he is maybe 6'1

4. I would be SHOCKED... SHOCKED I SAY... If he comes in at 285lbs... Im praying he hits 275lbs

 

I think teams will over think it with him .... I hope they do.. If he gets to 10 i would package a 3rd rounder to get him

great vid and yes athletic but short, 

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18 minutes ago, A-TowN.- said:

Like I said, I’m a Simmons fan over Oliver, but I’m telling you Oliver will have an insane combine. 

I’m not anti-Oliver and I afeee that my own view could change depending on combine. But if he has a crazy good combine I doubt he lasts to 14. Particularly if he shows up around 290ish and demonstrates explosiveness at combine.

i do hope that we don’t trade up in first round, as I think great talent will be available at 14

but to pretend size won’t matter in evaluations or his lack of sacks is dismissive of he evaluation process that we all know exist

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5 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

I’m not anti-Oliver and I afeee that my own view could change depending on combine. But if he has a crazy good combine I doubt he lasts to 14. Particularly if he shows up around 290ish and demonstrates explosiveness at combine.

i do hope that we don’t trade up in first round, as I think great talent will be available at 14

but to pretend size won’t matter in evaluations or his lack of sacks is dismissive of he evaluation process that we all know exist

When have I ever pretended size wasn’t something we take as a concern? I simply said don’t assume he’s something he’s not based on his size. As in I see a lot of people saying he’s not that powerful, but I think that’s a joke. I don’t think he will show up at 290 lbs, but I think he will lead all defensive tackles in the vert, broad jump, 40 yard dash, and I think he will put over 30 on the bench. He already benches 400+ lbs and squats over 600 lbs. 

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1 hour ago, vel said:

And Donald fell because of lack of size. His production was wild in college. He did it in the ACC compared to the AAC and still fell. McCoy and Cox did their work in much better conferences. Oliver did it vs a bunch of guys who won't sniff a practice squad. Again, the same questions were made regarding Mack vs Clowney. 

If we had a 6'4 310lb DT already, then I'd be all for adding Oliver. But adding another smaller DT just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when Oliver is expected to be a maxed out guy at 6'1 ~275ish. Acting as if there shouldn't be any questions around Oliver is ambitious. 

Senat is 6'1'' 310 so we do already have that guy. A line of Beasley senat Grady and Oliver playing the base is significantly larger than what we've had recently. 

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1 hour ago, vel said:

And Donald fell because of lack of size. His production was wild in college. He did it in the ACC compared to the AAC and still fell. McCoy and Cox did their work in much better conferences. Oliver did it vs a bunch of guys who won't sniff a practice squad. Again, the same questions were made regarding Mack vs Clowney. 

If we had a 6'4 310lb DT already, then I'd be all for adding Oliver. But adding another smaller DT just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when Oliver is expected to be a maxed out guy at 6'1 ~275ish. Acting as if there shouldn't be any questions around Oliver is ambitious. 

Donald flew up draft boards, he didn't fall. Prior to the senior bowl no one thought he was a 1st round pick.

Look I'm not saying you shouldn't question him, but looking purely at his stature and assuming he's washout against the run is short-sighted. He's better against the run coming out than either McCoy or Cox.

Likewise looking at his stats and deducing he's not a disruptive pass rusher is short-sighted.

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38 minutes ago, Smiler11 said:

Donald flew up draft boards, he didn't fall. Prior to the senior bowl no one thought he was a 1st round pick.

Look I'm not saying you shouldn't question him, but looking purely at his stature and assuming he's washout against the run is short-sighted. He's better against the run coming out than either McCoy or Cox.

Likewise looking at his stats and deducing he's not a disruptive pass rusher is short-sighted.

Donald would have been a top 5 pick if he was 6'4 310lb. The question was always his size. 6'1 285lb DTs rarely pan out. 

Again, I never said he wasn't good against the run nor disruptive as a pass rusher. The production in the pass rushing department leaves a lot to be desired when you compare it to his disruption in the run game. Also, he's a 3T only, just like Donald. With Grady already on the roster and about to be locked in, are you moving him to more 1T? I think that's questionable. Additionally, running two smaller DTs could pose an issue and is a big projection with Oliver. 

None of that is false. That's why Oliver is around at pick 14 in most mocks. If they weren't, he'd still be up in the mid top ten. 

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4 hours ago, Smiler11 said:

No one asked that question of Gerald McCoy or Fletcher Cox. Both went top 15 and their teams haven't looked back since. Aaron Donald has just skewed what 'good' college production looks like.

Yea but we are talking about a guy from Oklahoma and a guy from Miss St.   That means playing against NFL caliber players almost weekly.  Oliver didn't have to do that.  McCoy and Cox are both 300 and 310 lbs.  Nobody had to question the level of competition or their size at DT.  They also are were being drafted to play 3T primarily.  Cox has special power which allows him to dominate from any position but IDK if Oliver is that guy.

We need a real 2 gap 0/1 Tech DT who can push the pocket.  The #1 priority in the NFL is stopping the run, that's 1st, then we need our DT to collapse the pocket, get some pressure in the face of QBs.  Oliver may show up at the combine 275lbs.  If he is Rod Coleman at that size....Ill take him but a 280 lbs DT better be a sack master because standing up inside to 330 lbs OGs isn't going to be fun.  

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31 minutes ago, vel said:

Donald would have been a top 5 pick if he was 6'4 310lb. The question was always his size. 6'1 285lb DTs rarely pan out. 

Again, I never said he wasn't good against the run nor disruptive as a pass rusher. The production in the pass rushing department leaves a lot to be desired when you compare it to his disruption in the run game. Also, he's a 3T only, just like Donald. With Grady already on the roster and about to be locked in, are you moving him to more 1T? I think that's questionable. Additionally, running two smaller DTs could pose an issue and is a big projection with Oliver. 

None of that is false. That's why Oliver is around at pick 14 in most mocks. If they weren't, he'd still be up in the mid top ten. 

I disagree. Again I think you're pigeonholing him based on his size. I think he could play either the 1 or 3 tech in this defense. 

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2 minutes ago, Stryka said:

Yea but we are talking about a guy from Oklahoma and a guy from Miss St.   That means playing against NFL caliber players almost weekly.  Oliver didn't have to do that.  McCoy and Cox are both 300 and 310 lbs.  Nobody had to question the level of competition or their size at DT.  They also are were being drafted to play 3T primarily.  Cox has special power which allows him to dominate from any position but IDK if Oliver is that guy.

We need a real 2 gap 0/1 Tech DT who can push the pocket.  The #1 priority in the NFL is stopping the run, that's 1st, then we need our DT to collapse the pocket, get some pressure in the face of QBs.  Oliver may show up at the combine 275lbs.  If he is Rod Coleman at that size....Ill take him but a 280 lbs DT better be a sack master because standing up inside to 330 lbs OGs isn't going to be fun.  

I couldn't disagree more for multiple reasons:

1. We play in our base defense approximately 30% of the time. We're not spending a 1st pick on a guy who's only going to play in base.

2. In our base 4-3 under front, the 1 tech is aligned to the strength of the formation and the 3 tech to the weakside. However should the strength change, i.e. a TE was motioned to the weakside our DT's don't flip they change their alignments. Therefore our starting base DT's need to be effective out of both alignments. 

3. The #1 priority in the NFL is certainly not stopping the run, it's stopping the pass. That's why QB's, LT's, pass rushers & cornerbacks are the highest payed players in football.

4. Cox and McCoy were both sub 300 lbs coming out of college. 

5. Coming out of HS Oliver was 289lbs, so if he weighs in at 270 - 280lbs it'll be through choice.

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10 minutes ago, Smiler11 said:

I couldn't disagree more for multiple reasons:

1. We play in our base defense approximately 30% of the time. We're not spending a 1st pick on a guy who's only going to play in base.

2. In our base 4-3 under front, the 1 tech is aligned to the strength of the formation and the 3 tech to the weakside. However should the strength change, i.e. a TE was motioned to the weakside our DT's don't flip they change their alignments. Therefore our starting base DT's need to be effective out of both alignments. 

3. The #1 priority in the NFL is certainly not stopping the run, it's stopping the pass. That's why QB's, LT's, pass rushers & cornerbacks are the highest payed players in football.

4. Cox and McCoy were both sub 300 lbs coming out of college. 

5. Coming out of HS Oliver was 289lbs, so if he weighs in at 270 - 280lbs it'll be through choice.

1. You dont get a chance to even play the pass if you cant stop the run. There isn't a DC in this league who will tell you stopping the pass is 1st. Eagles won the superbowl last year. They had the #1 rush D. If you cant get teams to 3rd and 8 or better because you give up 5 ypc you will never see a rush down. 

2.  Offensive alignments dictate what a defense needs to be in. In our 4-3 front we need them to be flexible but our defense is best when we have a strong NT who can hold point and get push. A la Grady Jackson next to R. Coleman or Poe next to Grady last yr. We dont need an undersized guy next to a 300 lbs Grady. 

3. That is the general consensus but you see Guys like Haynesworth from Titans, Suh from Miami and Donald most recently get 100 million dollar deals. The 1st 2 arent elite pass rushers. Again....to be afforded pass rush opportunities you have to stop the run. Quinn says this all the time. Pass rush can be neutralized,, a good run stopping team can carry that every game. 

4. Cox and McCoy were at or around 295 to 305 lbs depending on where you look. Not 280 lbs. 

5. There is no doubt Oliver will be light. The concerns about his weight are legit. He may show up heavier but if he shows up at 285lbs....he will have to prove he is more than a base DE who can kick inside periodically. I dont think he can be a good 1 tech for us. Grady can do both. Oliver may be able to but he seems to have bust potential to me. 

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51 minutes ago, Stryka said:

Yea but we are talking about a guy from Oklahoma and a guy from Miss St.   That means playing against NFL caliber players almost weekly.  Oliver didn't have to do that.  McCoy and Cox are both 300 and 310 lbs.  Nobody had to question the level of competition or their size at DT.  They also are were being drafted to play 3T primarily.  Cox has special power which allows him to dominate from any position but IDK if Oliver is that guy.

We need a real 2 gap 0/1 Tech DT who can push the pocket.  The #1 priority in the NFL is stopping the run, that's 1st, then we need our DT to collapse the pocket, get some pressure in the face of QBs.  Oliver may show up at the combine 275lbs.  If he is Rod Coleman at that size....Ill take him but a 280 lbs DT better be a sack master because standing up inside to 330 lbs OGs isn't going to be fun.  

Nah it’s a misconception man disruptive is what this scheme is all about.Not holding the point and waiting a keeping you eyes on both gaps in the middle.Its about shooting and flowing the play one way so the LBers can come up and make a play.

The decision to me is this in my eyes.

1 they have to decide if Senat is that starting Nose tackle and is used as a foil for Jarrett,if he isn’t and you want to add size hen you are set up perfectly in this draft to find that guy.

2 having another guy next to Jarrett who as is disruptive while holding up against the run is probably what you want.Crawford showed how effective he is.

3 the Falcons in terms of needs along the dline need a defensive replacement for McLain and a base end to replace Shelby and or bring him back.

DTs aren’t big sack guys but disruption has to be there key in my eyes.Strong at the point of attack athletic with hand placement and usage being there call signs and a motor to boot.I think that’s what we need next to Jarrett not a hulking slow plodding 340 lb 2 gapper whose only job is to hold the point of attack

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5 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

Nah it’s a misconception man disruptive is what this scheme is all about.Not holding the point and waiting a keeping you eyes on both gaps in the middle.Its about shooting and flowing the play one way so the LBers can come up and make a play.

The decision to me is this in my eyes.

1 they have to decide if Senat is that starting Nose tackle and is used as a foil for Jarrett,if he isn’t and you want to add size hen you are set up perfectly in this draft to find that guy.

2 having another guy next to Jarrett who as is disruptive while holding up against the run is probably what you want.Crawford showed how effective he is.

3 the Falcons in terms of needs along the dline need a defensive replacement for McLain and a base end to replace Shelby and or bring him back.

DTs aren’t big sack guys but disruption has to be there key in my eyes.Strong at the point of attack athletic with hand placement and usage being there call signs and a motor to boot.I think that’s what we need next to Jarrett not a hulking slow plodding 340 lb 2 gapper whose only job is to hold the point of attack

Disruptive is what this scheme is about, however the most perfect example we are trying to get to is the Seattle defense from when Quinn was coordinating.  He had Red Bryant and B. Mebane.  BEEF.  If necessary, those 2 were the DTs.  Mebane almost exclusively was the 1Tech/NT.  Bryant played base DE and slide inside and that's at 325lbs.  They also had Bennett, another guy who could kick inside but was stout as a edge defender.  We need help inside and outside.

1.  Senat could prove to be the Grady Jarrett double and be equally good as Grady is vs the run and pass.  Potential is there but with sucn a deep class especially on day 1 and day 2, why not turn a weakness into a strength.

2. Ideally I want 2 guys who can be interchangeable.  Stout but quick enough to affect both run and pass.

3.  Absolutely. We need a base DT and another base DE.  It would be great if we could get a guy in draft that can do both somewhat.  Jack Crawford is a talented pass rusher and we not sure what we have in Senat so I would love to add a guy in the mold of M. Bennett to fill 2 diff roles.  I think with Grady, Senat, Vic, Takk, Irvin and the addition of a stud DT and DE via draft an FA does the job.

4. I absolutely am not looking for just a run stuffer.  I like Dexter Lawrence from Clemson and I think he fits in our defense but IDK if I want to spend my #14 pick on a big run stuffer who has potential to push the pocket. That said....I think a guy like that who can kinda be our Poe....fits perfect on this team and what we need for our identity. I want to get bigger at DT and at DE.  Seattle had 265 lbs DEs and up.  Bruce was there smallest pass rusher and he was 260.  Not 245 like Vic or 255 like Takk who has great power at that size.

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