falcons007

Falcons DL busts... Vic Beasley leads the pack of DL.

68 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

I actually just did this not to long ago here on this site believe it or not.  I was wondering how well the players in that draft played out because alot of people liked other pass rushers over beasley in that draft although i was a beasley guy he was in most of my mocks i won't deny it lol. 

But here is how that draft shacked out for edge rushers

Vic Beasley -     114 tackles  29.5 sacks   28 TFL  34 QB hits  1 int  9 FF 10 PD  2TD's - 1 Pro Bowl
Arik Armstead - 98 Tackles    9 Sacks       13 TFL    29 QB Hits   0 int 1 FF  1 PD   0 TD's - 0 pro bowls
Shane Ray -      94 Tackles   14 Sacks     15 TFL  33 QB Hits  0 int   2 FF   2 PD  1 TD - 0 Pro Bowls
Bud Dupree -    132 Tackles  20 Sacks    30 TFL   33 QB Hits  1 int  2 FF   6 PD  0 TD - 0 Pro Bowls
Mario Edward -  85 Tackles   8 Sacks       10 TFL   20 QB Hits  0 int  4 FF  2 PD   0 TD - 0 Pro Bowls
Randy Gregory - 45 Tackles 7 Sacks        11 TFL   23 QB Hits  0 int  2 FF  0 PD  0 TD - 0 Pro Bowls  
Preston Smith - 168 Tackles  24.5 Sacks   29 TFL  59 QB hits  4 int  4 FF  13 PD  1 TD - 0 Pro Bowls
Nate Orchard -  69 Tackles    5 Sacks       9 TFL   14 QB Hits   1 int   2 FF  5 PD   0 TD - 0 Pro bowls
Markus Golden - 119 Tackles 18.5 sacks  26 TFL  42 QB Hits   0 int  6 FF  3 PD  0 TD - 0 Pro Bowls
Frank Clark -     136 Tackles  35 Sacks     35 TFL   72 QB Hits  1 int  8 FF  6 PD 0 TD - 0 Pro Bowls
Eli Harold -         95 Tackles   9 Sacks       16 TFL    20 QB Hits  0 int  1 FF  1 PD 0 TD - 0 Pro Bowls
Danielle Hunter  206 Tackles  40 Sacks      52 TFL    58 QB Hits  0 int   3 FF 3 PD 2 TD - 1 Pro Bowl

Rest of them from here on out are all garbage from 4th round down and amounted to nothing sadly lol. 

So from that class of edge rushers the best guys imo are in order

Danielle Hunter
Frank Clark
Preston Smith
Vic Beasley
Bud Dupree
Markus Golden

Frank should have made a pro bowl some how that dude has been a beast in the nfl imo. 

either way that was a pretty decent edge rushing class and Beasley has been solid for the most part as the 4th best in that class.  Now i agree he was picked alot higher than them all so the expectations were higher but he hasn't been a bust by no means and was better than alot of other people drafted at his position and better than quite a few people drafted right after him that people wanted in  Dupree, Ray, Armstead, and Gregory.  Those are the exact 4 people others that didn't want beasley wanted us to draft in that class in the 1st round at our pick that at the time was considered about his same value.  He has outdone them all at this point so imo we chose the right guy based on value and what most experts said were the best guys there. We chose the best of the bunch but 3 other guys were better than him overall that i listed above.

 Seeing as so many people are touting the "he had one good year" line.

If it isn't too much trouble could you take out each of those listed player's *best* year as well and see how they all compare?

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Vic is averaging 5 sacks a year even if you take out the outlier season.  That's solid production for a rotational edge rusher.  The problem is that he had that outlier season and he was #8 overall.  I think if he only gets 9 sacks that season instead of 15, we are much happier with Vic.  The issue is expectations of where he was drafted and the production we already saw. 

I would love to have him back for 6-8 mill a year. More than that and I would give pause. He is actually still producing as a nickel rusher but as a starting 3 down DE....he has been frustrating to watch.

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9 hours ago, caver50 said:

Beasley got more than half of those sacks in one season, so those sacks are a bit miss leading. What about his last two seasons ?

You add capable pass rushers around him. Especially an interior rusher that he can run stunts with. 

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One of the things that bugs me about Beasley's stats is the year he had 15 sacks and lead the league in sacks 4 of those stats came from him lining up on a guy that was literally brought in of the street. I forgot the team we were playing at the time but I remember the situation. Every time I see his stats I think about those 4 sacks and have since he was the sack leader last year. If you consider that those 4 sacks were against someone with sub par talent for the NFL then do you really consider the sacks up to par? Don't get me wrong a sack is a sack and the numbers are the numbers but just something to consider when looking at comparisons to other people.

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5 minutes ago, JBender said:

One of the things that bugs me about Beasley's stats is the year he had 15 sacks and lead the league in sacks 4 of those stats came from him lining up on a guy that was literally brought in of the street. I forgot the team we were playing at the time but I remember the situation. Every time I see his stats I think about those 4 sacks and have since he was the sack leader last year. If you consider that those 4 sacks were against someone with sub par talent for the NFL then do you really consider the sacks up to par? Don't get me wrong a sack is a sack and the numbers are the numbers but just something to consider when looking at comparisons to other people.

We shouldn't look for reasons to take sacks away because we have other guys on the team who didn't register a sack versus the same guy. 

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LOL!! I love it!! Like I said, Vic Beasley ain't going anywhere. DQ can be objective and see what Beasley brings to the table that the majority of the folks here refuse to see. I can't wait to see the meltdown that happens when Beasley lines up with the Falcons on opening day 2019.

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14 hours ago, GrimeyKidd said:

Looks to me that adding pieces along with beasley would be good.  

If we can get both Beasley and Takk playing at a high level and get some help inside with Jarrett and Senat, well that will help more than anything. Giving Takk and Beasley more 1-on-1 matchups that they can win.

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2 hours ago, vel said:

He's Jason Babin. Accept it for what it is and go from there. 

Jason Babin was a very good player when used correctly. The Titans and Eagles did that after the Texans didn't. If the Falcons don't figure out how to use Beasley correctly then he'll go somewhere else where he will be used correctly and all the folks here will be *****ing and moaning. Hopefully the last handful of games from 2018 carries over because Vic was very good in those games.

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16 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Jason Babin was a very good player when used correctly. The Titans and Eagles did that after the Texans didn't. If the Falcons don't figure out how to use Beasley correctly then he'll go somewhere else where he will be used correctly and all the folks here will be *****ing and moaning. Hopefully the last handful of games from 2018 carries over because Vic was very good in those games.

He can be better than Babic, who really only had the 2 great seasons. I think he can be Dee Ford, maybe even Robert Mathis in the right scheme. Problem is like you alluded, Quinn has mis-used him horribly. He’s a pass rusher, not a pass defender.

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6 hours ago, quotemokc said:

 Seeing as so many people are touting the "he had one good year" line.

If it isn't too much trouble could you take out each of those listed player's *best* year as well and see how they all compare?

There was thread where this data was posted and argued a while back.  The argument isn't that 2016 doesn't count, it's that it is an outlier.  He has not been even remotely close to that productivity in two years.  As trivia, he is the best we've had but with a $12.8M cap hit due, trends matter more than totals.

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12 hours ago, Knight of God said:

Takk(?), Beasley, Means, Irvin

Presumably Means replaces Reed’s current role for savings.

Who can play base DE other than Means on the Left side? Does Vic keep his reduced role? Shelby had some value there rotating with Reed. Too bad he couldn’t stay healthy here. Figure we may need more flexibility replacing his loss; in addition to DT turnover with McClain likely not back in favor of a hoped for upgrade. This also presumes Irvin/VB are 100% back to resolve edge rushers

Who else can play 5T other than Crawford?

Edited by Ergo Proxy
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1 hour ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Jason Babin was a very good player when used correctly. The Titans and Eagles did that after the Texans didn't. If the Falcons don't figure out how to use Beasley correctly then he'll go somewhere else where he will be used correctly and all the folks here will be *****ing and moaning. Hopefully the last handful of games from 2018 carries over because Vic was very good in those games.

 

48 minutes ago, Vandy said:

He can be better than Babic, who really only had the 2 great seasons. I think he can be Dee Ford, maybe even Robert Mathis in the right scheme. Problem is like you alluded, Quinn has mis-used him horribly. He’s a pass rusher, not a pass defender.

Agree to disagree. Babin was only good with Jim Washburn and lined up in the wide 9. He had two good seasons in a twelve year career. ANY other scheme or alignment and he was a bum, especially once teams figured out to just run at wide 9 alignments and you haven't seen it since. Vic is a light weight one dimensional pass rusher. There is a place for that kind of guy on a roster, as you clearly see with Babin playing 12 years. But he's not a cornerstone guy. He's NOWHERE near Robert Mathis. Comparing him to Ford is being generous. 

And with this whole "he's being used incorrectly" trope. That's false. You can try and use that in 2017, but in 2018 he was doing the same thing he did in 2016 and didn't produce because he still only has a speed rush or a manufactured stunt. He's not physical. Bruce Irvin had more sacks in the games he was on the Falcons than Vic did during the same span. The league has adjusted to Vic Beasley. Vic hasn't adjusted back and will be a 4-5 sack guy until he does. 

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1 hour ago, vel said:

 

Agree to disagree. Babin was only good with Jim Washburn and lined up in the wide 9. He had two good seasons in a twelve year career. ANY other scheme or alignment and he was a bum, especially once teams figured out to just run at wide 9 alignments and you haven't seen it since. Vic is a light weight one dimensional pass rusher. There is a place for that kind of guy on a roster, as you clearly see with Babin playing 12 years. But he's not a cornerstone guy. He's NOWHERE near Robert Mathis. Comparing him to Ford is being generous. 

And with this whole "he's being used incorrectly" trope. That's false. You can try and use that in 2017, but in 2018 he was doing the same thing he did in 2016 and didn't produce because he still only has a speed rush or a manufactured stunt. He's not physical. Bruce Irvin had more sacks in the games he was on the Falcons than Vic did during the same span. The league has adjusted to Vic Beasley. Vic hasn't adjusted back and will be a 4-5 sack guy until he does. 

Like you said....agree to disagree. 

Ford’s had 30 sacks in 5 years, Beasley the same 30 or so in 4. Mathis had 34 in his 1st 4 seasons. 

Make a bet with you or anyone else on this board...Beasley will have multiple 10+ sack seasons before his career is finished. That’s how much I believe he’s being misused/poorly coached. And a big Part of lack of adjustment comes back to coaching. 

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6 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Like you said....agree to disagree. 

Make a bet with you or anyone else on this board...Beasley will have multiple 10+ sack seasons before his career is finished. That’s how much I believe he’s being misused/poorly coached. 

If I cared enough and was a betting person, I would gladly take you up on it. I hope Vic turns it around. I just don't believe he's being used poorly when the "few times" he's been unleashed, he's been stonewalled and looked confused. Seeing him struggle to beat even tight ends in pass rushing situations turned me off. That's not coaching, that's want to. 

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59 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Like you said....agree to disagree. 

Make a bet with you or anyone else on this board...Beasley will have multiple 10+ sack seasons before his career is finished. That’s how much I believe he’s being misused/poorly coached. 

I think MM didn’t know how to use him or they were compensating for Duke Riley with Vic playing out of position. Also, Beasley had great year with some one like Freeney coaching him up. At this point I would bet coaching is bigger issue than Vic. Hopefully DQ the DL expert takes over and fixes. 

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1 hour ago, Monolith2001 said:

There was thread where this data was posted and argued a while back.  The argument isn't that 2016 doesn't count, it's that it is an outlier.  He has not been even remotely close to that productivity in two years.  As trivia, he is the best we've had but with a $12.8M cap hit due, trends matter more than totals.

You can’t say outlier based on a rookie season, one season he played out of position. I will wait for some one not named Marquand Manuel using Vic before calling outliers. Richards and Freeney coaches up Vic in 2016.

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Lost in all this the fact that Beasley couldn't tackle a light pole the entire gd season. doesn't really matter who the DC is

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3 hours ago, falcons007 said:

I think MM didn’t know how to use him or they were compensating for Duke Riley with Vic playing out of position. Also, Beasley had great year with some one like Freeney coaching him up. At this point I would bet coaching is bigger issue than Vic. Hopefully DQ the DL expert takes over and fixes. 

He obviously needs some coaching to develop better pass rush moves to reach his potential. But you don’t give up on a player with his quickness. Especially on a guy still in his rookie contract.

Disagree with vel (on this one) and board in general claiming it’s all “want to”. Agree he’s frustrated, which makes it even more clear to me it’s been more coaching than folks admit. Folks don’t like to hear it, but VB’s not our only defensive player to struggle over this past year. Confidence is such a big part of playing football, and confidence comes from being technically sound and having a solid game plan. Anyone who watched falcons last year saw them play scattered on defense last year, and it wasn’t just because of injuries. You saw it in every area...pass rush, LBers, and secondary.

Frankly, Freeney seemed to have helped Beasley more than Young or DQ have. Plus he lost a half-season having to take Riley’s role in ‘17, which was dumb on DQ’s part not having a better backup plan for a 3rd round rookie he overdrafted in the first place. Putting your best pass rusher back playing pass defense instead of pinning his ears every down like he did in ‘16? That’s crazy, and it’s on Quinn, not Beasley. 

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1 hour ago, Vandy said:

He obviously needs some coaching to develop better pass rush moves to reach his potential. But you don’t give up on a player with his quickness. Especially on a guy still in his rookie contract.

Disagree with vel (on this one) and board in general claiming it’s “want to”. Agree he’s frustrated, which makes it even more clear to me it’s been coaching. Confidence is such a big part of playing football, and confidence comes from being technically sound.  Frankly, Freeney seemed to have helped him more than Young or DQ have. Plus he lost a year having to take Riley’s role, which was dumb on DQ’s part not having a better backup plan for a 3rd round rookie he overdrafted in the first place. Putting your best pass rusher back playing pass defense instead of pinning his ears back everyday down like he did in ‘16? That’s on Quinn, not Beasley. 

And who are Falcons gonna replace him with? You can’t have enough pass rushers if coaches know how to use them in a game.

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Falcons aren’t keeping Vic long-term if he doesn’t get more results before hitting UFA. Regardless of the reason one may think from the outside; as to why he hasn’t been as effective, he will need to put up or another team is going to value him more on scheme alone.

Maybe if we played with the level of scoring offense from 2016 and that turnover savvy D that was missing in 2017(worse unit than given credit), then Vic would have more sacks already and overall sustained usage.

Consistency boils down to his play and limits in the Quinn system. He doesn’t play base DE at a high enough level and when his snap count/role was reduced after Irvin got here he started producing more to the percentages(read effectiveness).

What is his success rate rushing? What is his current role? What will other teams offer him AND/OR he want if he were to hit UFA?

Just objective and sober.

I actually really like Vic and believe he has a place. Just isn’t gonna matter if the stars don’t align with his chances beyond 2019.

Unless he just wants to stay here! Never been on that stupid cut Vic train outright. The only thought of that was due to the weighty decision for his new cap hit for 2019 making him as of now our 4th highest commitment in space. Is he worth that? Nope. That’s why even if it’s a one year buy time scenario it’s hard to see both sides agreeing on his value as a Falcon without Beasley simply doing more instead of relying on being a situational star.

One year Falcons eat the cost. Would Atlanta offer him several years at $13M+ per? That’s the point.

Edited by Ergo Proxy
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