Falcons Fan MVP

Do you think Matt Ryan is better than Peyton Manning, Dan Marino and Jim Kelly?

186 posts in this topic

35 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

That’s a piss poor comparison, that’s why no one compares them with Ryan. Ryan and Manning comparison is very common. 

First 11 years most TD: 

1. Peyton Manning

2. Dan Marino

3. Matt Ryan. 

4. Favre

5. Brees. 

Most passing Yards in first 11 seasons.

1. Matt Ryan

2. Peyton Manning

3. Drew Brees. 

First 11 seasons, 4th Quarter Game winning Drives

Tied with Manning for top spot.

Romo and Rivers aren’t even close. 

There's a few issues I have with this post.

The first issue is, you're using volume stats to compare Ryan to QBs who played in different eras. If you don't understand why this is an issue, I don't really know why we're talking right now. Manning played a good portion of his career prior to the offense-favored rule changes, and Marino played his ENTIRE career prior to those changes. What Marino was doing at the time, given what his counterparts were doing, was nothing short of absolute domination. Ryan -- even if you include his 2016 season -- has NEVER dominated at the level that Marino has. Period. It's a faulty comparison.

The second issue is, the statistic you're using (volume stats in first 11 seasons) isn't really a valid comparison because Romo never even played 7 full seasons. That's why most people use yds/attempt, TD/INT ratio, QBR and completion %.

Remember when Matthew Stafford was throwing for 5k yards almost every year when he had Calvin Johnson and literally no one gave a ****? It's because volume statistics are a horrible way of measuring QB efficiency.

But if you insist on volume, here is river's stat-line over the past 10 seasons.

QeeLIST.png

And here are Ryan's.

nezFEtQ.png

You can certainly say Ryan is better, but what you can't tell me is that they're not comparable. 

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1 hour ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

This is what really impresses me about the Patriots. Tom Brady -- who's considered as the undisputed GOAT by many -- is somehow expendable to that team. Rather he suits up or not, New England is competitive.

And it's not a slight to Tom Brady either, it's a testament to how elite that franchise is. And how special of a coach Belichick is. I truly don't think BB gets enough credit for what he does year in and year out.

I find bit of fault with the above statement on Brady’s ‘expendability’...

Everyone points to that 11-5 season the Pats had under Cassel when Brady tore his ACL Week 1.  But the Pats had gone 66-14 the previous 5 seasons with Brady.  That’s not an insignificant downgrade.

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3 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

I find bit of fault with the above statement on Brady’s ‘expendability’...

Everyone points to that 11-5 season the Pats had under Cassel when Brady tore his ACL Week 1.  But the Pats had gone 66-14 the previous 5 seasons with Brady.  That’s not an insignificant downgrade.

Fair enough. I meant expendable relative to other teams reliance on their star QBs.

Packers without Rogers? Terrible. Falcons without Ryan? Terrible. Panthers without Cam? Even worse. 

Patriots without Tom? Definitely worse, but compared to how bad other teams would be without their star QB, still pretty decent.

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34 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

LOL!! So Ryan has a 6 point better completion percentage but they're close?

...yes. A 6 point difference in completion percentage across such a small sample size means that it is still comparable lol.

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29 minutes ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

There's a few issues I have with this post.

The first issue is, you're using volume stats to compare Ryan to QBs who played in different eras. If you don't understand why this is an issue, I don't really know why we're talking right now. Manning played a good portion of his career prior to the offense-favored rule changes, and Marino played his ENTIRE career prior to those changes. What Marino was doing at the time, given what his counterparts were doing, was nothing short of absolute domination. Ryan -- even if you include his 2016 season -- has NEVER dominated at the level that Marino has. Period. It's a faulty comparison.

The second issue is, the statistic you're using (volume stats in first 11 seasons) isn't really a valid comparison because Romo never even played 7 full seasons. That's why most people use yds/attempt, TD/INT ratio, QBR and completion %.

Remember when Matthew Stafford was throwing for 5k yards almost every year when he had Calvin Johnson and literally no one gave a ****? It's because volume statistics are a horrible way of measuring QB efficiency.

But if you insist on volume, here is river's stat-line over the past 10 seasons.

QeeLIST.png

And here are Ryan's.

nezFEtQ.png

You can certainly say Ryan is better, but what you can't tell me is that they're not comparable. 

First 11 is right one at the same times of their careers.  Rivers was a 5 year veteran in Ryan’s rookie year. That’s why it’s a piss poor comparison. 

Pull up first 11 years of Rivers, Manning, Ryan and Brees or others. Rivers played 4 more years but Ryan will over take him in 2 extra years. Romo isn’t even in discussion because he didn’t even play long enough to compare.

Forget Volume stats, Ryan had best NFL QB rating in first 11 years. Stanford isn’t even close. Every measure Ryan is neck and neck with Manning, may be except for TD. He is behind Manning and Marino. 

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Just now, falcons007 said:

First 11 is right one at the same times of their careers.  Rivers played 4 more years but Ryan will over take him in 2 extra years. Romo isn’t even in discussion because he didn’t even play long enough to compare.

Rivers was a 5 year veteran in Ryan’s rookie year. That’s why it’s a piss poor comparison. 

..that still doesn't make sense. Romo didn't start for the first few years in the NFL, you're aware of that right? And he was also injured for a few seasons after that. Which is why I said you can't really compare volume stats and expect to be taken seriously.

And you can reduce it to the last 8 seasons if you want. Still comparable lol. You're funny man.

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6 minutes ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

..that still doesn't make sense. Romo didn't start for the first few years in the NFL, you're aware of that right? And he was also injured for a few seasons after that. Which is why I said you can't really compare volume stats and expect to be taken seriously.

And you can reduce it to the last 8 seasons if you want. Still comparable lol. You're funny man.

Lol. Moving goal posts and reducing years lmao. If you gonna compare QB who played 5 years apart, compare their same years. Obviously Ryan just like Manning or Brees or Rivers took his time to hit prime with growing pains in first few years.

If you had an argument you wouldn’t  have to reduce or trim stats. Just compare first 11 years in NFL. 

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20 minutes ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

Fair enough. I meant expendable relative to other teams reliance on their star QBs.

Packers without Rogers? Terrible. Falcons without Ryan? Terrible. Panthers without Cam? Even worse. 

Patriots without Tom? Definitely worse, but compared to how bad other teams would be without their star QB, still pretty decent.

I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but at the same time, the quality of your back-up matters.  Brett Hundley?  Terrible.  Nick Foles?  Pretty good.  Matt Cassel?  Not bad.

Cassel put together decent work as a starter in KC after his NE stint.  Not franchise centerpiece caliber, but also not incompetent.  

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21 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Lol. Moving goal posts and reducing years lmao. If you gonna compare QB who played 5 years apart, compare their same years. Obviously Ryan just like Manning or Brees or Rivers took his time to hit prime with growing pains in first few years.

If you had an argument you wouldn’t  have to reduce or trim stats. Just compare first 11 years in NFL. 

1) You know Rivers only started in the league in 2006, right? Rivers has an extra TWO seasons, not five. 

2) I'm not moving goal posts, you didn't like using Ryan's first 10 seasons because it included his rookie year, so I said reduce it to 8 years to account for that.

3) First 11 seasons STILL isn't a good argument for why Ryan isn't comparable to Tony Romo because Tony Romo only played 7 seasons. I don't see how that is hard to understand.

4) "If you had an argument you wouldn't have to reduce or trim stats" I ONLY trimmed them down to be more fair to Ryan. That is not at all moving the goal posts, because I'm still using the same baseline metrics to compare them.

You're either dense or intentionally obtuse, but something's telling me it's the former.

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LOL ! No No No. I think you are using the wrong three to compare Ryan with. ALL those QB's are better. Now lets try Nick Foles, Ben Roethsberger, Russell Wilson or Philip Rivers. Not sure where is falls with this group either.     :slick:

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4 hours ago, BigGrip said:

LOL ! No No No. I think you are using the wrong three to compare Ryan with. ALL those QB's are better. Now lets try Nick Foles, Ben Roethsberger, Russell Wilson or Philip Rivers. Not sure where is falls with this group either.     :slick:

I'm having a hard time convincing myself Kelly is really better than Ryan. To me, they are roughly the same guy. if Kelly is 'better' it's not by much. 

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11 hours ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but at the same time, the quality of your back-up matters.  Brett Hundley?  Terrible.  Nick Foles?  Pretty good.  Matt Cassel?  Not bad.

Cassel put together decent work as a starter in KC after his NE stint.  Not franchise centerpiece caliber, but also not incompetent.  

Yeah. Cassel had a year with the Chiefs with 27 TD and only 7 INT.

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1 hour ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Anyone that watched the 2010 Falcons and said they were a "passing" team is clueless!! EOD.

We had almost 2k yards total rushing that year. Michael Turner dominated, we were a total ground and pound team. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest we were a passing team at all. 

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13 hours ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

Fair enough. I meant expendable relative to other teams reliance on their star QBs.

Packers without Rogers? Terrible. Falcons without Ryan? Terrible. Panthers without Cam? Even worse. 

Patriots without Tom? Definitely worse, but compared to how bad other teams would be without their star QB, still pretty decent

The Falcons have not played a game without Matt Ryan since 2009 so we don't know for sure how well they would play without him. Hopefully we will never ever find out until Matt Ryan retires.

 

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On 1/21/2019 at 5:08 PM, TheDirtyWordII said:

To be fair, Brady has had to deal with multiple offensive coordinators (Weis, McDaniels, O’Brien, and Belichick himself).

Also, I don’t think it’s just the QB skill that has mattered here.  Brady the person has:

1) Taken less money to stay in NE and with Belichick.

2) From what I’ve read, still is ridden as hard, if not harder, than any other Patriot.

Even at this stage of his career and life...he’s recognized the equation above.  Not sure if there’d be many other QB’s/players who’d do that.  Gronk looks ready to tap out before he’s 30.  I think dealing with BB has at least a little to do with that.

Let me be clear: Brady is the unquestioned GOAT. There's no denigrating what he is or what he's accomplished. 

That being said, I think you're drastically underrating the possibility (likelihood) that Tom Brady's "taken less money" narrative fails to take into account the compensation he has received from the Pats/Kraft family outside of football. Even the most ardent Pats fans are pretty open to that possibility. We know a little bit about these sorts of side deals but I'm willing to bet there's more there. And thats not to say they're "cheating" or anything like that. Again, theres no denigrating what they have accomplished, IMO. But if I had to guess, Tom Brady (or an entity in which Tom Brady owns a considerable stake) receives income/revenue from the stakeholders who run the Patriots (ie the Kraft Family). We dont have all the details other than this report: https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/12/19/patriots-pay-business-owned-tom-brady-and-partner-with-dubious-past/C4zMzcPDgU62WMMg10qeBL/story.html but my guess is that these details are the tip of the iceberg. 

Gronkowski is obviously a different issue that has its own set of circumstances. None of those circumstances, or the circumstances of  Tom Brady's career, get anywhere near lessening the absurd effectiveness of how Belichick runs his machine. And though he's worked with multiple coordinators, Belichick is a huge driver of what they do in all three facets of the game. And Josh McDaniels has been part of the equation for Brady's entire career, including 11 seasons as offensive coordinator. Brady's played behind a consistently good+ offensive line.....coached by Dante Scarnecchia for what, 30 years? 

Brady's a great player. But there are at least 5-7 contemporaries that could have been more or less just as effective if in the same ecosystem. 

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On 1/22/2019 at 0:17 PM, Falconsfan567 said:

Anyone that watched the 2010 Falcons and said they were a "passing" team is clueless!! EOD.

By "clueless" you mean "correct" right? 

Again, the numbers are what they are. More passing attempts overall. More passing attempts in one score situations. More passing attempts in the first half. More passing TDs. 2x as many passing first downs. 

I'm not even really sure how this is a discussion...we ran over 600 passing plays in 2010. 

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On January 20, 2019 at 11:04 AM, JD dirtybird21 said:

Ryan is definitely not better than Peyton or Marino. But that doesn’t mean he’s not going to be in the HOF. I think he gets in when it’s all said and done 

I doubt it, but if Matt Ryan somehow someway wins a Super Bowl for us before he retires, then he would immediately pass Marino without question. He won't catch Manning tho, although 2006 was the only season Manning won a Super Bowl putting up great numbers at the same time. Half the the QB's in the league wouldn't have changed the 2015 Broncos winning a championship with that dominant defense.

 

Tony Romo should NOT be in the discussion. Man never got past the divisional round and was on more 8-8 teams throughout his career. Philip Rivers finally made the playoffs for the first time since 2013, and still can't get back to the AFC title game (can't remember if he's ever gotten his team there). I felt sorry for Andy Dalton's injury in 2015, that was his year to do it with the Bengals, but he still lost 4 straight wildcard games.

 

Matt Ryan is probably the most middle of the pack QB in NFL history. Top tier 2. Always 2nd place with twins. Has put up record numbers his whole career in 11 seasons. Has won 3 division titles, played in 2 NFC championship, and has been to 1 Super Bowl with a MVP performance. Yet due to blowing that Super Bowl and all the fans bashing him time and time again cause they miss Vick so bad, he can't get compared to a Brady, Brees, Rodgers, or Manning, but Matt Ryan keeps getting compared to QB's who have literally accomplished no where near as much as Matt Ryan. Not even as much as Cam Newton. 

 

So is there really ANY QB in NFL history who compares to the only QB who has lost to every playoff team who's been to a Super Bowl or won it.... NO, Matt Ryan is just his own world type QB right between the elites and mediocres. No one is like Matt Ryan. Only Dan Marino comes the closest!

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On January 20, 2019 at 4:19 PM, Falconsfan567 said:

We have no idea how Matt Ryan would have done in the 80s and 90s. That's why it's not fair to compare eras.

This same logic applies to the Michael Jordan and LeBron James debate too.

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On January 20, 2019 at 11:45 PM, falcons007 said:

Rodgers is most overrated QB of his era. 

I get tired of people saying this. Aaron Rodgers has only had a top 5 defense once his whole career and that was the year he won his only Super Bowl even with all those players on IR. 2013 and 2015-present, the Packers are the Browns of the NFC without Aaron Rodgers starting. Just look at the filmtape. 2018 was the first time Rodgers missed the playoffs starting all 16 games since 2008. His coach had to get fired. 

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On January 20, 2019 at 11:45 PM, falcons007 said:

 

Edited by mqg96
Repeated posts are fun on an old iPhone 4s...

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Just now, mqg96 said:

I get tired of people saying this. Aaron Rodgers has only had a top 5 defense once his whole career and that was the year he won his only Super Bowl even with all those players on IR. 2013 and 2015-present, the Packers are the Browns of the NFC without Aaron Rodgers starting. Just look at the filmtape. 2018 was the first time Rodgers missed the playoffs starting all 16 games since 2008. His coach had to get fired. 

How many  top 5 defenses did other QB have in their careers? GB has been winning well before Rodgers became starter. At this point Brees over Rodgers. He may be talented but not yet in conversation for all time great QB.

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1 hour ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

By "clueless" you mean "correct" right? 

Again, the numbers are what they are. More passing attempts overall. More passing attempts in one score situations. More passing attempts in the first half. More passing TDs. 2x as many passing first downs. 

I'm not even really sure how this is a discussion...we ran over 600 passing plays in 2010. 

Passing attempts = passing offense? Got it. Thanks for playing.

Rushing attempts = rushing offense? Got it. Thanks for playing.

I wasn't even talking about "passing attempts" but whatever. The style of football the Falcons played in 2010 was ground and pound and control the clock. The exact same as it was in 2008 and 2009. I don't care how many pass attempts they had. I care about the style of offense and the Falcons were a running offense in 2010.

The fact that I've even got to explain that you can have a higher number of pass attempts and still be a "running" offense just blows my mind to anyone that has watched football for more than 5 minutes. Like I said, watch the games. Don't pay any attention to the number of passes. Pay attention to the style of football. Pay attention to what the Falcons offensive mindset was. What did the Falcons want to accomplish? They wanted to run the ball and control the clock to keep a subpar defense off the field and that's exactly what they did. There's a reason the Falcons defense finished 5th in points allowed that year. It's because it was hardly on the field because of all the long time consuming drives put together by the offense. It **** sure wasn't because the defense was actually any good. You don't get long drawn out drives by not running the ball and having success with it.

You wanna use pass attempts to make your case? Well, let me use run attempts to make my case. Falcons ran the ball 497 times in 2010. That was 4th most in the NFL. Yet, they were a passing offense? Ok then. Like I said, anyone that goes back and watches those games and thinks "passing team" is clueless. 4th most rushing attempts in the NFL but "passing" team. 497 rushing attempts and 577 passing attempts. That's 1074 plays. We're talking about nearly 50/50 run and pass. But yeah, once again! Numbers don't lie. The games don't lie. The 2010 Atlanta Falcons were a RUNNING TEAM!! Those are the facts!!

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1 hour ago, mqg96 said:

I doubt it, but if Matt Ryan somehow someway wins a Super Bowl for us before he retires, then he would immediately pass Marino without question. He won't catch Manning tho, although 2006 was the only season Manning won a Super Bowl putting up great numbers at the same time. Half the the QB's in the league wouldn't have changed the 2015 Broncos winning a championship with that dominant defense.

 

Tony Romo should NOT be in the discussion. Man never got past the divisional round and was on more 8-8 teams throughout his career. Philip Rivers finally made the playoffs for the first time since 2013, and still can't get back to the AFC title game (can't remember if he's ever gotten his team there). I felt sorry for Andy Dalton's injury in 2015, that was his year to do it with the Bengals, but he still lost 4 straight wildcard games.

 

Matt Ryan is probably the most middle of the pack QB in NFL history. Top tier 2. Always 2nd place with twins. Has put up record numbers his whole career in 11 seasons. Has won 3 division titles, played in 2 NFC championship, and has been to 1 Super Bowl with a MVP performance. Yet due to blowing that Super Bowl and all the fans bashing him time and time again cause they miss Vick so bad, he can't get compared to a Brady, Brees, Rodgers, or Manning, but Matt Ryan keeps getting compared to QB's who have literally accomplished no where near as much as Matt Ryan. Not even as much as Cam Newton. 

 

So is there really ANY QB in NFL history who compares to the only QB who has lost to every playoff team who's been to a Super Bowl or won it.... NO, Matt Ryan is just his own world type QB right between the elites and mediocres. No one is like Matt Ryan. Only Dan Marino comes the closest!

I don’t base my opinion for QB’s on wins or Super Bowls. Those are team and coach accomplishments. Marino and Peyton are 2 of the best of all time. I think Manning is arguably the best ever and DEFINITELY better than Brady. Check out this write up I put together before the 2013 super bowl of Seahawks and Broncos.

https://glitchgoals.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/the-big-game/

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