Falcons Fan MVP

Do you think Matt Ryan is better than Peyton Manning, Dan Marino and Jim Kelly?

186 posts in this topic

Just now, Falconsfan567 said:

Yes. NFL didn't become the monster offensive league we see today until around 2010. But if we're gonna use the pro bowl stat, Ryan made pro bowl in 2010 (his 3rd season). That still doesn't change the point that both guys were protected early in their careers as opposed to Peyton who was never protected.

Yeah the two big sea changes re: the rules were post-2004 (after the Pats locked down that blazing Colts team and Bill Polian convinced the Competition Committee to change their approach to the rules) and then again in like ~2011. We could be in a new "era" depending on what happens in the next cpl of years. Which means we're going to have to be careful using raw numbers in evaluating QBs. 

I dont really know why Ryan was "protected" at all. I guess he was asked to do a little less in 2008 but by 2010, the offense was pretty much right on his shoulders. And not for nothing but Peyton had a ton of resources invested into his surroundings to suggest he wasnt protected.... 

Peyton effectively had the same problem everyone else had post 2001.....Bill Belichick. 

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7 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Manning never approached the level of coaching that Brady has received over the course of his career. 

Dungy was a decent coach but he owes his HOF bust to Peyton more than Peyton owes his to Tony Dungy. 

Belichick is in another galaxy compared to Dungy. 

I’d say this...Belichick and Brady have had a 1+1=5 effect on each other.  As great as each one is, I don’t think they reach those levels without each other.

But Manning didn’t have poor/bad coaching.

Falconsfan567 and Geneaut like this

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2 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Why? What makes it not a valid point?

The "establishing the run makes everything easier" narrative falls apart when you look at the data. Its not unimportant, its just nowhere near the bedrock people suggest it is. All things being equal, you'd much rather be good in the passing game than the run game. Its actually the pass game which frequently opens up the run game. 

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Just now, TheDirtyWordII said:

I’d say this...Belichick and Brady have had a 1+1=5 effect on each other.  As great as each one is, I don’t think they reach those levels without each other.

Maybe. Its pretty much never worth trying to separate great coaching/QB tandems. But we've seen Belichick keep the Pats competitive with back-up level QBs. And we've seen him run an absurdly efficient and effective ship. Brady has absolutely been a part of that but I think its probably a bit more likely that Belichick would be more likely to have thrived at a similar level with another QB than Brady with another coach. Said differently, I think Belichick could have done something like this with ~5-7 other QBs....but I dont know that Brady could do this with any other coach. Because any other coach is going to end up with sorts of variance we see in defense/STs around the league. Belichick's squad is remarkably consistent in both of those areas and is unparalleled at game script management. 

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1 minute ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Yeah the two big sea changes re: the rules were post-2004 (after the Pats locked down that blazing Colts team and Bill Polian convinced the Competition Committee to change their approach to the rules) and then again in like ~2011. We could be in a new "era" depending on what happens in the next cpl of years. Which means we're going to have to be careful using raw numbers in evaluating QBs. 

I dont really know why Ryan was "protected" at all. I guess he was asked to do a little less in 2008 but by 2010, the offense was pretty much right on his shoulders. And not for nothing but Peyton had a ton of resources invested into his surroundings to suggest he wasnt protected.... 

Peyton effectively had the same problem everyone else had post 2001.....Bill Belichick. 

The Falcons and Patriots in the early years of both Ryan and Brady's careers were ground and pound teams. Run the ball. Control the clock. Play solid defense. The reason for the team success that the Patriots had over the Falcons playing that style of football was the Patriots defense was better than the Falcons. Falcons defense would post good regular season numbers but then get exposed in the playoffs.

Peyton from day 1 was in a sling it all over the place offense. The Patriots didn't become a sling it all over the place offense until 2007 when Brady got Randy Moss to throw to. The Falcons didn't become a sling it all over the place offense until 2012 when Koetter took over.

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2 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Maybe. Its pretty much never worth trying to separate great coaching/QB tandems. But we've seen Belichick keep the Pats competitive with back-up level QBs. And we've seen him run an absurdly efficient and effective ship. Brady has absolutely been a part of that but I think its probably a bit more likely that Belichick would be more likely to have thrived at a similar level with another QB than Brady with another coach. Said differently, I think Belichick could have done something like this with ~5-7 other QBs....but I dont know that Brady could do this with any other coach. Because any other coach is going to end up with sorts of variance we see in defense/STs around the league. Belichick's squad is remarkably consistent in both of those areas and is unparalleled at game script management. 

My only rebuttal to this is why didn't Belichick have this kind of success in Cleveland?

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1 minute ago, Falconsfan567 said:

The Falcons and Patriots in the early years of both Ryan and Brady's careers were ground and pound teams. Run the ball. Control the clock. Play solid defense. The reason for the team success that the Patriots had over the Falcons playing that style of football was the Patriots defense was better than the Falcons. Falcons defense would post good regular season numbers but then get exposed in the playoffs.

Peyton from day 1 was in a sling it all over the place offense. The Patriots didn't become a sling it all over the place offense until 2007 when Brady got Randy Moss to throw to. The Falcons didn't become a sling it all over the place offense until 2012 when Koetter took over.

Matt Ryan threw the ball 565+ times in both 2010 and 2011. Its fair to say that he wasnt asked to shoulder the load in 08/09. By 2010, he was. And it hasnt really stopped since. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

My only rebuttal to this is why didn't Belichick have this kind of success in Cleveland?

Because

1) the Browns were a disaster of an organization at the time. Organizational buy-in is absolutely necessary for any coach to succeed.

2) He had some pretty ridiculous success in his short time there (at least one of those defenses was an all time unit)

3) Coaches grow and evolve. That's what's made him so absurd.....his ability to constantly tinker and adjust. 

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3 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Maybe. Its pretty much never worth trying to separate great coaching/QB tandems. But we've seen Belichick keep the Pats competitive with back-up level QBs. And we've seen him run an absurdly efficient and effective ship. Brady has absolutely been a part of that but I think its probably a bit more likely that Belichick would be more likely to have thrived at a similar level with another QB than Brady with another coach. Said differently, I think Belichick could have done something like this with ~5-7 other QBs....but I dont know that Brady could do this with any other coach. Because any other coach is going to end up with sorts of variance we see in defense/STs around the league. Belichick's squad is remarkably consistent in both of those areas and is unparalleled at game script management. 

To be fair, Brady has had to deal with multiple offensive coordinators (Weis, McDaniels, O’Brien, and Belichick himself).

Also, I don’t think it’s just the QB skill that has mattered here.  Brady the person has:

1) Taken less money to stay in NE and with Belichick.

2) From what I’ve read, still is ridden as hard, if not harder, than any other Patriot.

Even at this stage of his career and life...he’s recognized the equation above.  Not sure if there’d be many other QB’s/players who’d do that.  Gronk looks ready to tap out before he’s 30.  I think dealing with BB has at least a little to do with that.

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35 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

The Falcons and Patriots in the early years of both Ryan and Brady's careers were ground and pound teams. Run the ball. Control the clock. Play solid defense. The reason for the team success that the Patriots had over the Falcons playing that style of football was the Patriots defense was better than the Falcons. Falcons defense would post good regular season numbers but then get exposed in the playoffs.

Peyton from day 1 was in a sling it all over the place offense. The Patriots didn't become a sling it all over the place offense until 2007 when Brady got Randy Moss to throw to. The Falcons didn't become a sling it all over the place offense until 2012 when Koetter took over.

2010 is when MT started leading NFL in negative runs. Falcons won ton of games because of great 3rd down offense with MM running up gut on early downs. Roddy White and Tony Gonzalez lead the NFL in 3rd down conversions from 2010-2012.

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5 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

2010 is when MT started leading NFL in negative runs. Falcons won ton of games because of great 3rd down offense with MM running up gut on early downs. Roddy White and Tony Gonzalez lead the NFL in 3rd down conversions from 2010-2012.

That still doesn't change the fact that the style of offense to pass heavy didn't happen until Dirk Koetter took over in 2012. Remember after the Giants playoff loss and the offense didn't score a single point? Yeah. Mularkey was (unofficially fired) because the offense that stopped progressing. when the previous 3 years it had progressed and more and more load was put on Ryan's shoulder's. But by 2011 it had peaked and Koetter was brought in to take Ryan and the offense to the next level and that's exactly what he did.

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33 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

That still doesn't change the fact that the style of offense to pass heavy didn't happen until Dirk Koetter took over in 2012. Remember after the Giants playoff loss and the offense didn't score a single point? Yeah. Mularkey was (unofficially fired) because the offense that stopped progressing. when the previous 3 years it had progressed and more and more load was put on Ryan's shoulder's. But by 2011 it had peaked and Koetter was brought in to take Ryan and the offense to the next level and that's exactly what he did.

No, the falcons were pass heavy from 2010. It was MM playing scared in 2011 than anything else. He even said they were scared of Giants pass rush and that’s why called routes less than 10 yards. I agree in 2008 and 2009. By 2011 it was obvious Ryan outgrew MM. falcons offense moved in No huddle and stalled pretty much most of the time in huddle.

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2 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

No, the falcons were pass heavy from 2010. It was MM playing scared in 2011 than anything else. He even said they were scared of Giants pass rush and that’s why called routes less than 10 yards. I agree in 2008 and 2009. By 2011 it was obvious Ryan outgrew MM. falcons offense moved in No huddle and stalled pretty much most of the time in huddle.

Falcons were not a pass heavy offense in 2010. Matt Ryan averaged only 232 passing yards per game in 2010. That was 15th in the NFL. Guys like Shaun Hill and Jon Kinta averaged more passing yards per game in 2010 than Matt Ryan.

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14 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Falcons were not a pass heavy offense in 2010. Matt Ryan averaged only 232 passing yards per game in 2010. That was 15th in the NFL. Guys like Shaun Hill and Jon Kinta averaged more passing yards per game in 2010 than Matt Ryan.

They passed more than they ran from 2010. It wasn’t even close. Yards/game doesn’t say if it was pass heavy or not. It just says how MM rarely called a deep ball. You are confused with Agrresive calling.  And how many 3rd downs did Shaun Hill and Kitna convert? You probably watch box scores and not actual games. 

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41 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

They passed more than they ran from 2010. It wasn’t even close. Yards/game doesn’t say if it was pass heavy or not. It just says how MM rarely called a deep ball. You are confused with Agrresive calling.  And how many 3rd downs did Shaun Hill and Kitna convert? You probably watch box scores and not actual games. 

The Falcons style of football did not change from 2008-2011. I'm sorry, but it didn't. The Falcons were ground and pound. And don't tell me that I didn't watch games. It wasn't until 2012 that the Falcons style of offense changed.

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On 1/20/2019 at 0:08 AM, ChickenBiscuit said:

No, he should be compared to Tony Romo and Phillip Rivers. Two very good, and very comparable QBs.

Agreed

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6 hours ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Postseason Stats

  • Ryan = 237/351 (67.5%), 2672 YDS (7.6), 20 TD, 7 INT, 100.8 QB Rating
  • Romo = 114/185 (61.6%), 1316 YDS (7.1), 8 TD, 2 INT, 93.0 QB Rating
  • Rivers = 211/355 (59.4%), 2656 YDS (7.5), 14 TD, 10 INT, 84.2 QB Rating

Like I said, Ryan has had a lot more postseason success than Romo and Rivers. This is what I was saying. I wasn't talking about team success or lack there of. Ryan has more than done his part in the postseason. He's the only QB in NFL postseason history with at least 20 TD passes and fewer than 10 interceptions. Think about that for one moment. THE ONLY ******* QB IN THE HISTORY OF THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE WITH AT LEAST 20 TOUCHDOWN PASSES AND FEWER THAN 10 PICKS IN THE PLAYOFFS!!! Yet somehow the Falcons lack of postseason success is Ryan's fault?

I never made that claim. The claim I made was that Rivers and Romo are very comparable to Ryan over the past 10 seasons. Which is true. And even by the statistics you're citing, if you take out the volume stats and look at the completion %, yards per attempt and TD/INT ratio, Romo and Ryan are very comparable. You've certainly made a case that Ryan is a better postseason QB than Rivers, but that still doesn't mean they aren't comparable QBs.

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5 hours ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Maybe. Its pretty much never worth trying to separate great coaching/QB tandems. But we've seen Belichick keep the Pats competitive with back-up level QBs. And we've seen him run an absurdly efficient and effective ship. Brady has absolutely been a part of that but I think its probably a bit more likely that Belichick would be more likely to have thrived at a similar level with another QB than Brady with another coach. Said differently, I think Belichick could have done something like this with ~5-7 other QBs....but I dont know that Brady could do this with any other coach. Because any other coach is going to end up with sorts of variance we see in defense/STs around the league. Belichick's squad is remarkably consistent in both of those areas and is unparalleled at game script management. 

This is what really impresses me about the Patriots. Tom Brady -- who's considered as the undisputed GOAT by many -- is somehow expendable to that team. Rather he suits up or not, New England is competitive.

And it's not a slight to Tom Brady either, it's a testament to how elite that franchise is. And how special of a coach Belichick is. I truly don't think BB gets enough credit for what he does year in and year out.

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3 hours ago, Falconsfan567 said:

The Falcons style of football did not change from 2008-2011. I'm sorry, but it didn't. The Falcons were ground and pound. And don't tell me that I didn't watch games. It wasn't until 2012 that the Falcons style of offense changed.

Lol. You obviously didn’t get the point how much passing bailed the lack of success in running game in 2010 onwards. No playoffs in 2010-2011 if Passing game wasn’t good. 

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23 minutes ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

I never made that claim. The claim I made was that Rivers and Romo are very comparable to Ryan over the past 10 seasons. Which is true. And even by the statistics you're citing, if you take out the volume stats and look at the completion %, yards per attempt and TD/INT ratio, Romo and Ryan are very comparable. You've certainly made a case that Ryan is a better postseason QB than Rivers, but that still doesn't mean they aren't comparable QBs.

That’s a piss poor comparison, that’s why no one compares them with Ryan. Ryan and Manning comparison is very common. 

First 11 years most TD: 

1. Peyton Manning

2. Dan Marino

3. Matt Ryan. 

4. Favre

5. Brees. 

Most passing Yards in first 11 seasons.

1. Matt Ryan

2. Peyton Manning

3. Drew Brees. 

First 11 seasons, 4th Quarter Game winning Drives

Tied with Manning for top spot.

Romo and Rivers aren’t even close. 

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44 minutes ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

I never made that claim. The claim I made was that Rivers and Romo are very comparable to Ryan over the past 10 seasons. Which is true. And even by the statistics you're citing, if you take out the volume stats and look at the completion %, yards per attempt and TD/INT ratio, Romo and Ryan are very comparable. You've certainly made a case that Ryan is a better postseason QB than Rivers, but that still doesn't mean they aren't comparable QBs.

LOL!! So Ryan has a 6 point better completion percentage but they're close?

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39 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Lol. You obviously didn’t get the point how much passing bailed the lack of success in running game in 2010 onwards. No playoffs in 2010-2011 if Passing game wasn’t good. 

No one is saying that the passing game was bad in 2010 and 2011. But the STYLE of offense was still ground and pound. Just because the Falcons weren't any good at it doesn't mean that it wasn't the offensively style of football that they played. Anyone that watched the Falcons play and say that they weren't a ground and pound style offense from 2008-2011 didn't watch the games. Has nothing to do with how many pass attempts they had or whatever.

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5 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

No one is saying that the passing game was bad in 2010 and 2011. But the STYLE of offense was still ground and pound. Just because the Falcons weren't any good at it doesn't mean that it wasn't the offensively style of football that they played. Anyone that watched the Falcons play and say that they weren't a ground and pound style offense from 2008-2011 didn't watch the games. Has nothing to do with how many pass attempts they had or whatever.

Passing game carried the team. EOD.

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