Falcons Fan MVP

Do you think Matt Ryan is better than Peyton Manning, Dan Marino and Jim Kelly?

186 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, osiruz said:

Brady is a winner and top 10 but he started out as a game manager and never had to do as much.

If you then simply start out his career in 2007, he’s:

Won 2 SB’s

Appeared in 6 (counting 2019)

Won 3 MVP’s

A 370:93 TD/INT ratio

...I could keep going?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

Didn’t you say above that Rodgers might be the most overrated QB of his era?

Ultimately, I don’t mind rationale backed up with fact.  But if your going to state the above...think you need to back it up other than ‘I just think so’.  Especially when the facts say otherwise.

We haven’t even touched on Marino’s 1.7/1 TD:INT ratio v Rodgers’ 4.2/1.  But I guess such facts don’t register much on the ‘I think’ scale.

Actually no I didn’t. Someone quoted me and said that. I replied with he may be but he still had more help than Marino

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

If you then simply start out his career in 2007, he’s:

Won 2 SB’s

Appeared in 6 (counting 2019)

Won 3 MVP’s

A 370:93 TD/INT ratio

...I could keep going?

Yeah he put up gaudy numbers once it became a passing league, he is also a benefactor of some of the best coaching and scheme of all time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, osiruz said:

Yeah he put up gaudy numbers once it became a passing league, he is also a benefactor of some of the best coaching and scheme of all time.

The only stat up there was the 4th line item.  And wasn’t Peyton Manning in the same era as Brady?  I seem to recall a few H2H matchups.

And again, calling a spade a spade...Manning received great coaching as well as evidenced by Tony Dungy’s HOF bust.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

The only stat up there was the 4th line item.  And wasn’t Peyton Manning in the same era as Brady?  I seem to recall a few H2H matchups.

And again, calling a spade a spade...Manning received great coaching as well as evidenced by Tony Dungy’s HOF bust.

 

Dungy is a mediocre coach to be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Falcons Fan MVP said:

 

I thought that Duper, Clayton and Keith Jackson were solid. Defense seemed average. Great coaches.

Check out the defensive rankings for Marino's teams and get back to me. Usually in the bottom half of the league on a yearly basis. The offense was Marino or nothing.

On 1/20/2019 at 2:49 PM, Falconsfan567 said:

I honestly think Marino did get less help than the rest of the teams he was facing in the playoffs on a yearly basis. Check out the Dolphins rushing ranks in Marino's years.

  • 1983 - 13th
  • 1984 - 16th
  • 1985 - 18th
  • 1986 - 25th (Bottom 5)
  • 1987 - 23rd
  • 1988 - 28th (Last)
  • 1989 - 27th (Bottom 5)
  • 1990 - 22nd
  • 1991 - 25th (Bottom 5)
  • 1992 - 24th (Bottom 5)
  • 1993 - 25th (Bottom 5)
  • 1994 - 13th
  • 1995 - 21st
  • 1996 - 19th
  • 1997 - 29th (Bottom 5)
  • 1998 - 24th
  • 1999 - 22nd

Dan Marino played on teams that the best they ever finished in rushing yards is 13th. They finished last once and in the bottom 5 of the NFL in rushing yards 6 times. In 1996 Karim Abdul-Jabbar rushed for 1116 yards for the Dolphins. That was the only 1000 yard rusher the Dolphins had in Marino's time. So, the Dolphins offense was Marino or nothing.

Now for the defensive ranks. Here's the points allowed defensive rankings for the Dolphins in Marino's time.

  • 1983 - 1st
  • 1984 - 7th
  • 1985 - 12th
  • 1986 - 26th (Bottom 5)
  • 1987 - 16th
  • 1988 - 24th (Bottom 5)
  • 1989 - 22nd
  • 1990 - 4th
  • 1991 - 24th (Bottom 5)
  • 1992 - 12th
  • 1993 - 24th (Bottom 5)
  • 1994 - 17th
  • 1995 - 11th
  • 1996 - 17th
  • 1997 - 16th
  • 1998 - 1st
  • 1999 - 19th

1983 they finished with the top scoring defense in the NFL but it was Marino's rookie year and they lost to the Seahawks in the playoffs. The next year they were 7th in scoring defense and made it to the Super Bowl and lost to the clear cut best team in the NFL in the 49ers that year. 1990 they finished 4th in scoring defense and lost to the Bills in the playoffs. The Bills were to the Dolphins under Jim Kelly what the Saints have been to the Falcons under Drew Brees. Marino's teams were just not good enough to beat the Bills consistently just like Ryan's teams haven't been good enough to beat the Saints consistently. In 1998 they finished 1st in scoring defense and lost to the Broncos in the playoffs. Again, the clear cut best team in the NFL. So for Marino's career he only had a defense that finished in the top 10 in the NFL 4 times. He had 4 defenses that finished in the bottom 5 in the NFL. They routinely finished mid pack in the NFL under Marino.

Here's the yards allowed.

  • 1983 - 7th
  • 1984 - 19th
  • 1985 - 23rd
  • 1986 - 26th (Bottom 5)
  • 1987 - 26th (Bottom 5)
  • 1988 - 26th (Bottom 5)
  • 1989 - 24th (Bottom 5)
  • 1990 - 7th
  • 1991 - 25th (Bottom 5)
  • 1992 - 11th
  • 1993 - 20th
  • 1994 - 19th
  • 1995 - 16th
  • 1996 - 17th
  • 1997 - 26th (Bottom 5)
  • 1998 - 3rd
  • 1999 - 5th

Only 4 times did the Dolphins finish in the top 10 in yards allowed. 6 times they finished in the bottom 5 of the NFL in yards allowed. Again routinely mid pack. So no, Marino didn't have a whole lot of help in his career despite who his coaches were.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

Because there are 22 starters on a team + the coaching staff and FO. Postseason success has a lot more to do with the team rather than the QB.

Y'all can't stand when someone tries to downplay Ryan due to him not having a ring, but do the EXACT same thing to other QBs. If you dared mention Ryan's lack of postseason success pre-2016 on these boards, you'd get crucified. So why is it okay to use it as a measure to downplay other QBs.

Rivers/Romo are not bad QBs, they were practically top 10 every year they played. The same can be said for Ryan.

Postseason Stats

  • Ryan = 237/351 (67.5%), 2672 YDS (7.6), 20 TD, 7 INT, 100.8 QB Rating
  • Romo = 114/185 (61.6%), 1316 YDS (7.1), 8 TD, 2 INT, 93.0 QB Rating
  • Rivers = 211/355 (59.4%), 2656 YDS (7.5), 14 TD, 10 INT, 84.2 QB Rating

Like I said, Ryan has had a lot more postseason success than Romo and Rivers. This is what I was saying. I wasn't talking about team success or lack there of. Ryan has more than done his part in the postseason. He's the only QB in NFL postseason history with at least 20 TD passes and fewer than 10 interceptions. Think about that for one moment. THE ONLY ******* QB IN THE HISTORY OF THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE WITH AT LEAST 20 TOUCHDOWN PASSES AND FEWER THAN 10 PICKS IN THE PLAYOFFS!!! Yet somehow the Falcons lack of postseason success is Ryan's fault?

falconsd56 and Geneaut like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

If you then simply start out his career in 2007, he’s:

Won 2 SB’s

Appeared in 6 (counting 2019)

Won 3 MVP’s

A 370:93 TD/INT ratio

...I could keep going?

Except Brady's career didn't start in 2007. Brady's first year playing was 2001 and from 2001-2006 he was a "don't lose the game" type player. His numbers and Matt Ryan's numbers through their first 6 NFL seasons are nearly identical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CrimsonFalcon said:

I've avoided reading this topic since it came up...but now that I'm here, I'm going to throw a name out that hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

Warren Moon.

Moon was probably the 3rd or 4th best QB in the league during the late 80s-early 90s.  To me, Moon is who Ryan's career mostly resembles.  Both were overshadowed by perennial Super Bowl winners (Brady/Montana), Both were consistently in the top of the yardage categories.  Both on teams that would have a good year and then (while having great stats) the next year would be a down year...and (as much as this hurts to say) both blew historic leads.

Absolutely!!! I've said that on here many times that Matt Ryan is the Warren Moon of his era. A guy who's true value and appreciation and respect won't be realized until long after his career is over.

CrimsonFalcon and Geneaut like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

SMH...

I followed the buccs closely when he was coach and back when we sucked. They should've had at least 2-3 lombardis but his coaching and the offense was the problem. Once they got Gruden they got over the hump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Except Brady's career didn't start in 2007. Brady's first year playing was 2001 and from 2001-2006 he was a "don't lose the game" type player. His numbers and Matt Ryan's numbers through their first 6 NFL seasons are nearly identical.

Yes...so up those numbers to

5 SB’s won

10 appeared in

When you take his whole career into account...do you guys still need to debate whether Brady > Peyton?  It’s over.  Brady won.

As for Ryan, he’s positioned well to make the HOF at this juncture.  But you’ll do worse comparing him to Brady than you/others did Peyton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Check out the defensive rankings for Marino's teams and get back to me. Usually in the bottom half of the league on a yearly basis. The offense was Marino or nothing.

 

From a points allowed standpoint, Rodgers had similar deficiencies...working from 2018 to 2008

22

26

21

12

14

25

11

19

2 (won SB)

7

22

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

Yes...so up those numbers to

5 SB’s won

10 appeared in

When you take his whole career into account...do you guys still need to debate whether Brady > Peyton?  It’s over.  Brady won.

As for Ryan, he’s positioned well to make the HOF at this juncture.  But you’ll do worse comparing him to Brady than you/others did Peyton.

No. Brady > Peyton. I've never argued differently. I was just saying that Brady the first part of his career was on Matt Ryan's level. I think as far as pure talent and the type of player they were Ryan = Peyton. Folks don't like it because Peyton has all those numbers but Ryan would have Peyton's numbers if he played the majority of his career for Tom Moore and had the offense built around what he did best. Instead Ryan has always been forced into different offensive situations. Peyton was never forced into a situation where he was "protected." Ryan was. Brady was. That was the only point I was making there. From day 1 of Peyton's career he was given free reign of his offense. Ryan and Brady were told to go out and not lose the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

From a points allowed standpoint, Rodgers had similar deficiencies...working from 2018 to 2008

22

26

21

12

14

25

11

19

2 (won SB)

7

22

I don't know why you're talking to me about Rodgers. I haven't said one word about Rodgers. I said that Marino had less help than the other teams he was facing on a yearly basis which is why he didn't have the same postseason success guys like Kelly and Elway did. The numbers back that up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

I don't know why you're talking to me about Rodgers. I haven't said one word about Rodgers. I said that Marino had less help than the other teams he was facing on a yearly basis which is why he didn't have the same postseason success guys like Kelly and Elway did. The numbers back that up.

You need to quit making me think...

Rodgers=Marino

Brady=Montana

 

Geneaut likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Warren Moon passed the eye test to be an all time great QB. Without seeing him play and lacking SB rings most younger fans probably don't know him. Having the Oilers move probably doesn't help his main fan base keep his torch lit either. He was a beast in the Run and Shoot  

Edited by Geneaut
CrimsonFalcon likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/19/2019 at 8:43 PM, Falcons Fan MVP said:

3 quarterbacks Matt Ryan has been compared to the most are Peyton Manning, Dan Marino and Jim Kelly. How good is Matt Ryan compared to these 3 quarterbacks in your opinion?  I think Matt is better than Jim Kelly and slightly better than Marino but not quite as good as Peyton Manning yet. Your thoughts?

Marino and Manning are probably a couple of tiers up from Ryan. 

Kelly is an interesting one. I think they're probably pretty close with Kelly having an edge as of today. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

Yes...so up those numbers to

5 SB’s won

10 appeared in

When you take his whole career into account...do you guys still need to debate whether Brady > Peyton?  It’s over.  Brady won.

As for Ryan, he’s positioned well to make the HOF at this juncture.  But you’ll do worse comparing him to Brady than you/others did Peyton.

For me, there are two separate questions here:

Who has had the better career? (which can reasonably be rephrased as "Who is the Greatest QB Of All Time?") and

Which QB was the most skilled? 

Brady wins the first question going away. Its not really close anymore. 

The second question is a bit closer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Except Brady's career didn't start in 2007. Brady's first year playing was 2001 and from 2001-2006 he was a "don't lose the game" type player. His numbers and Matt Ryan's numbers through their first 6 NFL seasons are nearly identical.

The league was a rather different place back then. And by 2004, Brady was playing at a Pro Bowl level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, ChickenBiscuit said:

Because there are 22 starters on a team + the coaching staff and FO. Postseason success has a lot more to do with the team rather than the QB.

Y'all can't stand when someone tries to downplay Ryan due to him not having a ring, but do the EXACT same thing to other QBs. If you dared mention Ryan's lack of postseason success pre-2016 on these boards, you'd get crucified. So why is it okay to use it as a measure to downplay other QBs.

Rivers/Romo are not bad QBs, they were practically top 10 every year they played. The same can be said for Ryan.

Rivers/Romo/Ryan are very much in the same tier. All ~Top 30 or so All Time. 

And yeah, using "QBRINGZ" is a pretty silly way to attack any QB, as far as I'm concerned. Its reasonable to use RINGZ to break ties but I dont think thats the way to judge a given QB's skill. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

The only stat up there was the 4th line item.  And wasn’t Peyton Manning in the same era as Brady?  I seem to recall a few H2H matchups.

And again, calling a spade a spade...Manning received great coaching as well as evidenced by Tony Dungy’s HOF bust.

 

Manning never approached the level of coaching that Brady has received over the course of his career. 

Dungy was a decent coach but he owes his HOF bust to Peyton more than Peyton owes his to Tony Dungy. 

Belichick is in another galaxy compared to Dungy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

The league was a rather different place back then. And by 2004, Brady was playing at a Pro Bowl level.

Yes. NFL didn't become the monster offensive league we see today until around 2010. But if we're gonna use the pro bowl stat, Ryan made pro bowl in 2010 (his 3rd season). That still doesn't change the point that both guys were protected early in their careers as opposed to Peyton who was never protected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, apl2g said:

Having a run game opens everything else up. If you don’t have a guy who can average 60-70 yards a game your team becomes 1 dimensional and easier to scheme against. 

This run game stuff has gotta stop. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now