HMFIC

Falcon's O Line for 2019

53 posts in this topic

37 minutes ago, ATLSlobberKnockers said:

Stats would disagree. I argued for a OG/C last year bc the class was loaded. This year they aren't. There is a near zero chance that a 2nd or 3rd rnd reach is going to perform better than Massie or Saffold. I'd much prefer to field a competent OL next year while adding talent to our DL. We don't have the luxury of burning an early pick on a project at OT/OG.

Again, you don't invest in youth on the OL for immediate performance.  But if you pass over OL year after year, as we've done, you end up having to field scraps from other teams.  If you draft your own, then you get to build the line that you want.

It takes time.  People who want a quick fix are mortgaging the future for possible short term success.  Matt Ryan has said that he's willing to play until he's in his 40's.  If we get ourselves an offensive line that can protect him over the next few years, and continually add talent to that line, then the odds of him meeting that goal are pretty good.

There should be plenty of 2nd round quality offensive linemen available when we make our pick in the 2nd round.  They're not going to immediately be better than some folks we could get in free agency, but over time, they could be, if not better.   If we pass it up again, that's just one more year that we are depriving ourselves of talent on the OL.

Doing the same thing over and over, relying on free agency to, "build," our OL has proven to be ineffective.  Meanwhile, you have the Patriots, who continue to find themselves in Superbowl after Superbowl, largely because of their dedication to drafting heavily along the lines.  Go compare their drafts to ours.  

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10 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

We have spent some 2nd and 3rd round picks and plenty of later rounds and none of them panned out. Go look at the rookie first round picks from last year. They were really bad except the top 6 pick. I am all for growing pains instead of signing scrubs in FA. 

I only take issue with the word, "plenty."  We have used 11 of our last 80 picks on OL.  (since 2008)  (for 5 of 22 positions on the field (23% of starters)  we've used 14% of our draft picks.  If we wanted to spend 23% of our picks on OL, we would have drafted 18 OL rather than 11.

Now, get this...  Of those 11 draft picks, 5 picks have been in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round.  By comparison, in the same time period, we have drafted 9 Cornerbacks in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round.  Do you see the disparity?  5 OL positions, 5 picks.  2/3 CB positions, 9 picks.

We could be doing a lot better, both in drafting effectiveness, and in quantity on the OL.

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3 hours ago, ATLSlobberKnockers said:

Sign Saffold and Massie. Use the draft on DL.

Just do it

Love Massie

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2 hours ago, robertap said:

We've been doing this crap.  It doesn't work.  Free agent OL are a band aid, not a fix. 

We need to use more draft picks on OL, and we need to do a better job with those picks.  As it stands, we've used 11 of our last 80 picks on OL, and only three of those are currently on the roster in any capacity.  TD has done a HORRIBLE job with the OL.  He needs to do better.

I’d say that Alex Mack bandaid ain’t too shabby!

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4 minutes ago, Matt_The Iceman_Ryan said:

I’d say that Alex Mack bandaid ain’t too shabby!

:slick: and get some good ones now in the draft

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3 hours ago, robertap said:

We've been doing this crap.  It doesn't work.  Free agent OL are a band aid, not a fix. 

We need to use more draft picks on OL, and we need to do a better job with those picks.  As it stands, we've used 11 of our last 80 picks on OL, and only three of those are currently on the roster in any capacity.  TD has done a HORRIBLE job with the OL.  He needs to do better.

We had a Top 5 OL with that band-aid bunch of scrubs in 2016....:ninja:

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12 minutes ago, Matt_The Iceman_Ryan said:

I’d say that Alex Mack bandaid ain’t too shabby!

We broke the bank to get Mack in here, and we only got him because he didn't want to be in Cleveland anymore.  We can't afford to do that to fill every position on the OL, and it's kinda rare for players to give up on a team that's offering to match other offers.

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6 minutes ago, Vandy said:

We had a Top 5 OL with that band-aid bunch of scrubs in 2016....:ninja:

Our line isn’t nearly as bad as people think.  If I knew Levitre could stay healthy I’d bring him back cheap.

And I’m tired of seeing the Colts as the poster child for how to fix your line.  There is a reason they fired their OL coach.  On 30% of their snaps they used 6 Offensive Lineman and blocking TE.  This limited their passing game and covered the warts on their line

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26 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Our line isn’t nearly as bad as people think.  If I knew Levitre could stay healthy I’d bring him back cheap.

And I’m tired of seeing the Colts as the poster child for how to fix your line.  There is a reason they fired their OL coach.  On 30% of their snaps they used 6 Offensive Lineman and blocking TE.  This limited their passing game and covered the warts on their line

Indy’s OL Got exposed badly by Chiefs. 

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1 hour ago, Vandy said:

We had a Top 5 OL with that band-aid bunch of scrubs in 2016....:ninja:

Maybe Koetter can bring in a Christmas chester like Shan did

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2 hours ago, robertap said:

We broke the bank to get Mack in here, and we only got him because he didn't want to be in Cleveland anymore.  We can't afford to do that to fill every position on the OL, and it's kinda rare for players to give up on a team that's offering to match other offers.

I think JuWann James would leave that dumpster fire in MIA for the same $$...and James Carpenter maybe?

 

I actually think the Koetter connection will help us land a guy like Donovan Smith. He’s young and plays well at RT...resign Sambraillo and let those guys compete...

 

Spend all our dollars on defense, with Grady, maybe a Gerald McCoy, get a playmaker LB in Kwon or KJ, and add depth at DE

Then go OL heavy in draft!!!

Edited by Matt_The Iceman_Ryan
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6 hours ago, falcons007 said:

OL takes time to play at high level. Get at least one in FA .

Yep Oline isn’t about adding names that people recognise it’s about the unit gelling as a whole.Id be looking at adding a right tackle.

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3 hours ago, robertap said:

I only take issue with the word, "plenty."  We have used 11 of our last 80 picks on OL.  (since 2008)  (for 5 of 22 positions on the field (23% of starters)  we've used 14% of our draft picks.  If we wanted to spend 23% of our picks on OL, we would have drafted 18 OL rather than 11.

Now, get this...  Of those 11 draft picks, 5 picks have been in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round.  By comparison, in the same time period, we have drafted 9 Cornerbacks in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round.  Do you see the disparity?  5 OL positions, 5 picks.  2/3 CB positions, 9 picks.

We could be doing a lot better, both in drafting effectiveness, and in quantity on the OL.

Most teams don’t like to change OL like skill positions. Comparing total picks is lazy as there is more turnover in NFL at CB.  TD tried to draft replacements for Mcclure at Center (Konz in second, Hawley in 3rd). Dahl (Reynolds, Mike Johnson), Tyson Clabo (Holmes in 3rd round). The successful replacements were Mack, Levitre and even a guy like Chester in FA. His best OL pick was Mathews which was top 6 pick.  Duane Brown every one here wanted sucked for first 2-3 years before he became one of the best. 

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11 hours ago, Ergo Proxy said:

They drafted a generational first year All-Pro and where else was their OL constructed from in one offseason??

It took time with previous drafts and the 6th overall pick the last draft. Nelson level player isn't seen at this time for this draft class.

That said, we are at a point of needing draft capital invested into the OL due to the inevitable roster turnover.

We got caught with Levitre falling off from injuries and Schraeder declining early for a 30 year old.

The real issue we didn't adequately address so far is RG. That's the one area we could've done more. We did try to develop Wes and it took longer; he may be the LG next year for arguments sake.

Like I said earlier, on the plus side we have the skill positions settled for the most part. That means we are able to invest more into the OL this offseason.

Falcons had a strategy that backfired due to some things that were unpredictable. Note Fusco's injury...unpredictable. Levitre was a gamble after his injury to IR in 2017.

Now we see what a season full on injuries does when Wes/Garland have to start again and Schraeder falling off unpredictably does.

EDIT:

Basically, if Levitre was healthy and Fusco played all 16/RS did not fall of we'd probably have made the playoffs in spite of the Defense and even without Free.

They drafted Braden smith who’s now their RT as well. Which I think we could essentially follow the same route—obviously no OL is as great as Nelson. But let’s say we drafted Cody Ford and Michael Dieter. Or Reisner and Deiter or Lindstrom? Either combo probably fixes our OL for this year.  Maybe sign a vet for the other G position depending on how the coaching staff thinks about existing roster players

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13 hours ago, robertap said:

We've been doing this crap.  It doesn't work.  Free agent OL are a band aid, not a fix. 

We need to use more draft picks on OL, and we need to do a better job with those picks.  As it stands, we've used 11 of our last 80 picks on OL, and only three of those are currently on the roster in any capacity.  TD has done a HORRIBLE job with the OL.  He needs to do better.

We keep going with late round prospects which is the problem. Need a first or second round OL like Matthews. We should grab cody ford and cross train him at guard.

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7 hours ago, falcons007 said:

Most teams don’t like to change OL like skill positions. Comparing total picks is lazy as there is more turnover in NFL at CB.  TD tried to draft replacements for Mcclure at Center (Konz in second, Hawley in 3rd). Dahl (Reynolds, Mike Johnson), Tyson Clabo (Holmes in 3rd round). The successful replacements were Mack, Levitre and even a guy like Chester in FA. His best OL pick was Mathews which was top 6 pick.  Duane Brown every one here wanted sucked for first 2-3 years before he became one of the best. 

I don’t really call that “trying” my friend. Holmes especially in the 3rd was a joke. 

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6 hours ago, MSalmon said:

They drafted Braden smith who’s now their RT as well. Which I think we could essentially follow the same route—obviously no OL is as great as Nelson. But let’s say we drafted Cody Ford and Michael Dieter. Or Reisner and Deiter or Lindstrom? Either combo probably fixes our OL for this year.  Maybe sign a vet for the other G position depending on how the coaching staff thinks about existing roster players

I’d agree if by draft day our DL is in much better shape. I still think we have to get a starter in FA for OL and OL/DL first two rounds.

For example:

If Ford and Oliver are there at 14, then who do we take if we secured at least starting OL in FA already? 

See to me it depends on the DL situation after FA settles down; presuming we MUST make a big move on FA for the OL as we could have as many as 3 starting spots up for grabs. Our DT situation moving forward; with DE getting a mention due to roster turnover alone.

We need to replace McClain with an upgrade big time. Senat grows but he and another guy should be in the rotation. If we got say McCoy for not breaking the cap? Maybe we skip DL in round 1 and possibly round 2. That’s where your plan for OL again comes forward but it’s a risk due to learning curve. Might take him a rough rookie year and if he is part of an OL with 2 rookies? Would need an amazing coaching job.

Back to DL: We still have to replace Shelby 5Tand re-sign Irvin at minimum; even if we keep VB. Reed cut and maybe sign Means??

I digress...

Its basically impossible to say get any particular player on draft day without FA making a clear picture of things for us.

We aren’t getting enough FA moves on the OL to void taking an OL in first couple rounds.

Seems like DL is more of a luxury and we should weigh value/player caliber available at 14 vs roster needs(we may have to reach); such as if DL is solved etc and no other major player is available to steer us from OL in round 1 and we take best OL remaining with a solid round 1 grade at risk of having no one in round 2 falling.

I’m not opposed to moving up from our 2nd rounder if a good talent is falling into the low 20s as well; one we considered at 14 etc but other teams skip over. Depends as usual on all factors up to draft day and as it unfolds.

Edited by Ergo Proxy
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6 hours ago, Vandy said:

I don’t really call that “trying” my friend. Holmes especially in the 3rd was a joke. 

Well TD was gloating in the press conference for finding a diamond in the rough while MS was looking like WTF?

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18 hours ago, Ergo Proxy said:

They drafted a generational first year All-Pro and where else was their OL constructed from in one offseason??

It took time with previous drafts and the 6th overall pick the last draft. Nelson level player isn't seen at this time for this draft class.

That said, we are at a point of needing draft capital invested into the OL due to the inevitable roster turnover.

We got caught with Levitre falling off from injuries and Schraeder declining early for a 30 year old.

The real issue we didn't adequately address so far is RG. That's the one area we could've done more. We did try to develop Wes and it took longer; he may be the LG next year for arguments sake.

Like I said earlier, on the plus side we have the skill positions settled for the most part. That means we are able to invest more into the OL this offseason.

Falcons had a strategy that backfired due to some things that were unpredictable. Note Fusco's injury...unpredictable. Levitre was a gamble after his injury to IR in 2017.

Now we see what a season full on injuries does when Wes/Garland have to start again and Schraeder falling off unpredictably does.

EDIT:

Basically, if Levitre was healthy and Fusco played all 16/RS did not fall of we'd probably have made the playoffs in spite of the Defense and even without Free.

See this is it in a weak Oline class coming out with limited options you best be having plan B.Its all well and good saying we should do this and that then reality sets in and your plan A goes to crap because there’s 31 other vultures out there doing exactly what you are.

In saying this what I hope happens is that because of the strength of the dline class the 1 of those top Oline prospects falls into our hands.

For example if Cody Ford is there and Ed Oliver is there to me it’s a no brainer who the pick is,it has to be the first mentioned.We want to shed some age off of the Oline and salary cap dollars and that scenario presents itself to me this has to be the FO move.

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6 hours ago, MSalmon said:

They drafted Braden smith who’s now their RT as well. Which I think we could essentially follow the same route—obviously no OL is as great as Nelson. But let’s say we drafted Cody Ford and Michael Dieter. Or Reisner and Deiter or Lindstrom? Either combo probably fixes our OL for this year.  Maybe sign a vet for the other G position depending on how the coaching staff thinks about existing roster players

Not next year but maybe a few years down the track.

Thing is if you can 

1 wait for that.

2 the new draftees are able to push out the incumbents

3 combinations when throwing in more than one piece the nuances and habits of certain pieces gelling as one is the key.

Hence why I’ve been a big proponent of known combinations playing together.Hence why I like that OU right side Samia and Ford.Already a combination played many years together.You throw them in I’d give them a pretty decent chance to succeed.

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7 hours ago, MSalmon said:

They drafted Braden smith who’s now their RT as well. Which I think we could essentially follow the same route—obviously no OL is as great as Nelson. But let’s say we drafted Cody Ford and Michael Dieter. Or Reisner and Deiter or Lindstrom? Either combo probably fixes our OL for this year.  Maybe sign a vet for the other G position depending on how the coaching staff thinks about existing roster players

Braden Smith was marginally better than Ryan Schraeder last year. It’s expected, he struggled like any other Rookie. Got destroyed by chiefs. I prefer to let a rookie struggle than waste a year on journey OL. Falcons need to be careful not to blow up another season with at RT and OG.

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38 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

See this is it in a weak Oline class coming out with limited options you best be having plan B.Its all well and good saying we should do this and that then reality sets in and your plan A goes to crap because there’s 31 other vultures out there doing exactly what you are.

In saying this what I hope happens is that because of the strength of the dline class the 1 of those top Oline prospects falls into our hands.

For example if Cody Ford is there and Ed Oliver is there to me it’s a no brainer who the pick is,it has to be the first mentioned.We want to shed some age off of the Oline and salary cap dollars and that scenario presents itself to me this has to be the FO move.

Don’t tell @FalconFanSince1970 we might be passing on another AD for another Matthews over a need?!

Yeah it’s hard to justify ignoring Ford or another OL high on our board unless we have Oliver MUCH higher than any available OL.

This is why we sorta have no choice but to go for FA OL starters and free up our flexibility in draft day for who we take at 14.

You can get a solid OL together without throwing 14 and a highly sought after FA OL as well. That’s my point. If we overinvest in the OL; weird concept I know, then we may be back in shootout 2016 games.

We got too many FA questions. That’s the real issue right now with these discussions.

Plans aren’t plans without other details being part of that plan. We are missing details.

That said, we can’t rely on 2018 OL strategy of “let’s hope Andy is back and Fusco keeps Wes/Garland off the field”, but I give them a pass on Schraeder since his play got really bad just this season.

Re-structure him and see if he wants his job back? Ty back instead as the #3 OT at minimum.

Fusco can be cut if necessary for other UFA moves; as he got hurt and Wes at least made some progress and could be the #3 OG. We will need depth tho. Same as with OT, if not more so given our recent history and facing injuries like we have.

That’s why even Fusco is to be considered vs cutting a veteran as depth. We have to field a 53 even if guys like him are late cuts. Who will push for a job?

Wes was challenged and improved last offseason because we brought in competition.

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25 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Don’t tell @FalconFanSince1970 we might be passing on another AD for another Matthews over a need?!

Yeah it’s hard to justify ignoring Ford or another OL high on our board unless we have Oliver MUCH higher than any available OL.

This is why we sorta have no choice but to go for FA OL starters and free up our flexibility in draft day for who we take at 14.

You can get a solid OL together without throwing 14 and a highly sought after FA OL as well. That’s my point. If we overinvest in the OL; weird concept I know, then we may be back in shootout 2016 games.

We got too many FA questions. That’s the real issue right now with these discussions.

Plans aren’t plans without other details being part of that plan. We are missing details.

That said, we can’t rely on 2018 OL strategy of “let’s hope Andy is back and Fusco keeps Wes/Garland off the field”, but I give them a pass on Schraeder since his play got really bad just this season.

Re-structure him and see if he wants his job back? Ty back instead as the #3 OT at minimum.

Fusco can be cut if necessary for other UFA moves; as he got hurt and Wes at least made some progress and could be the #3 OG. We will need depth tho. Same as with OT, if not more so given our recent history and facing injuries like we have.

That’s why even Fusco is to be considered vs cutting a veteran as depth. We have to field a 53 even if guys like him are late cuts. Who will push for a job?

Wes was challenged and improved last offseason because we brought in competition.

At least Dimi  went BPA with Ridley last year. I'm hoping he stays on that path this year and forever. Do that and get stacked. Free up the cap. Plug the holes with young street agents that can play NFL ball on day one. Draft nothing but BPAs at every turn. Even at QB. Chances are he will fill a need and satisfy TATF. Time to get serious.

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32 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Don’t tell @FalconFanSince1970 we might be passing on another AD for another Matthews over a need?!

Yeah it’s hard to justify ignoring Ford or another OL high on our board unless we have Oliver MUCH higher than any available OL.

This is why we sorta have no choice but to go for FA OL starters and free up our flexibility in draft day for who we take at 14.

You can get a solid OL together without throwing 14 and a highly sought after FA OL as well. That’s my point. If we overinvest in the OL; weird concept I know, then we may be back in shootout 2016 games.

We got too many FA questions. That’s the real issue right now with these discussions.

Plans aren’t plans without other details being part of that plan. We are missing details.

That said, we can’t rely on 2018 OL strategy of “let’s hope Andy is back and Fusco keeps Wes/Garland off the field”, but I give them a pass on Schraeder since his play got really bad just this season.

Re-structure him and see if he wants his job back? Ty back instead as the #3 OT at minimum.

Fusco can be cut if necessary for other UFA moves; as he got hurt and Wes at least made some progress and could be the #3 OG. We will need depth tho. Same as with OT, if not more so given our recent history and facing injuries like we have.

That’s why even Fusco is to be considered vs cutting a veteran as depth. We have to field a 53 even if guys like him are late cuts. Who will push for a job?

Wes was challenged and improved last offseason because we brought in competition.

I would say not questions I’d say decisions is a more apt description.In which way they want to go.

Outside of maybe a Kwon Alexander it has to be LoS either side.Which brings up another issue with teams seeing what we are doing do they adapt there Draft & FA strategies to disrupt or match ?

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2 hours ago, kiwifalcon said:

Not next year but maybe a few years down the track.

Thing is if you can 

1 wait for that.

2 the new draftees are able to push out the incumbents

3 combinations when throwing in more than one piece the nuances and habits of certain pieces gelling as one is the key.

Hence why I’ve been a big proponent of known combinations playing together.Hence why I like that OU right side Samia and Ford.Already a combination played many years together.You throw them in I’d give them a pretty decent chance to succeed.

I like the concept you’re pushing of line mates. Seems to me that they’d be synced up and have a bond

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