TheDirtyWordII

TDWII’s Off-Season Proposal v1: It’s About the Run Game…Our Run Game

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Good work, you can tell you spent some time getting details. I hope we find a way to keep Poole, he is not a superstar and sometimes have problems with covering (who doesn't) put Poole plays hard and will hit you a$$) He is now experienced. You need players like Poole to win in a long hard fight, injury prone NFL.

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9 hours ago, Gold4425 said:

Good work, you can tell you spent some time getting details. I hope we find a way to keep Poole, he is not a superstar and sometimes have problems with covering (who doesn't) put Poole plays hard and will hit you a$$) He is now experienced. You need players like Poole to win in a long hard fight, injury prone NFL.

One aspect to last offseason I was not enamored with was signing Rico Allen to a 3 year deal.  I was content to let him play out his RFA tender.  Alas, we didn’t and now we’ll have him coming back from a serious injury.  But DQ/TD made it clear that Allen starts when he’s back.

For me, having Kazee as depth is simply not enough.  I want him on the field.  Ultimately, I think Poole is a casualty of the Allen signing.

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20 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

One aspect to last offseason I was not enamored with was signing Rico Allen to a 3 year deal.  I was content to let him play out his RFA tender.  Alas, we didn’t and now we’ll have him coming back from a serious injury.  But DQ/TD made it clear that Allen starts when he’s back.

For me, having Kazee as depth is simply not enough.  I want him on the field.  Ultimately, I think Poole is a casualty of the Allen signing.

Kazee will see the field.  Don't worry. There are creative ways to get him on the field in Big Nickel packages and also base at NB.  Poole is no worse than a 3rd or 4th CB on any team.  He is a dog and despite some struggles last year, one of our most physical players.  I don't think he is cut regardless of what happens.  He was 2nd on the team in picks and he is usually one of the top tacklers. 

Rico deserves every dime.  Would you rather have a guy that can get you 3 INTs a year without giving up big plays or would you want a guy who can get you 7 INTs but bust coverage once a game or every other game?  Give me the consistency.  Lets also add that outside of Neal, Rico is probably our surest tackler.  He doesn't miss and he doesn't get beat.  That along with invaluable leadership.  **** half the reason Kazee knows what he is doing is because of Rico mentorship.

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43 minutes ago, Stryka said:

Kazee will see the field.  Don't worry. There are creative ways to get him on the field in Big Nickel packages and also base at NB.  Poole is no worse than a 3rd or 4th CB on any team.  He is a dog and despite some struggles last year, one of our most physical players.  I don't think he is cut regardless of what happens.  He was 2nd on the team in picks and he is usually one of the top tacklers. 

Rico deserves every dime.  Would you rather have a guy that can get you 3 INTs a year without giving up big plays or would you want a guy who can get you 7 INTs but bust coverage once a game or every other game?  Give me the consistency.  Lets also add that outside of Neal, Rico is probably our surest tackler.  He doesn't miss and he doesn't get beat.  That along with invaluable leadership.  **** half the reason Kazee knows what he is doing is because of Rico mentorship.

How does Kazee see the field is Allen, Neal, Poole are all active?  Poole played 80% of the defensive snaps this year.  Neal/Allen when healthy/active are always on the field.  If DQ is 'about the ball'...I don't see how you tell the NFL leader in INT's in his second season 'you play in dime/big nickel packages now'.

Allen in his career has 7 INT's and 13 PD's (drafted in 2014).
Poole in his career 4 INT's and 19 PD's (UDFA in 2016)

Kazee in 2018 had 7 INT's and 10 PD's.

Poole isn't cut so much as non-tendered.  And admittedly, I may not be as high on Allen as some/most...but we're obviously committed to him.  The thing about our defense is that I'm OK going toe-to-toe with a team point-for-point.  We have the offense to win games 38-35.  But I want playmakers on the field...guys that cause that hesitation by the QB to try and fit that ball in.  Of the 4 safeties/NB's...Kazee really is the only one that demonstrated AND executed that mentality.  And if we win the takeaway battle...that's when I think this team is most dangerous.

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16 hours ago, Geneaut said:

I'm sure he won't. That was my poorly made point. 

If tevin can be kept for around $6M per season then we need to do it. This draft is low on RB talent and we don't need to draft one.

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6 minutes ago, osiruz said:

If tevin can be kept for around $6M per season then we need to do it. This draft is low on RB talent and we don't need to draft one.

I can't endorse that.  That would be in the neighborhood of $14M AAV between Freeman/Coleman.  It's just way too much at that position.

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19 hours ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

I think re-signing Beasley is the smarter decision if he's on board with it. You could get him on a really good deal and get good results IF he is utilized the right way...which is a 3rd down pass rusher and nothing else. If he has a HUGE year, sure that would be great, but he is then almost certainly gone. 

Agreed. I personally see a 2-3 year contract for Beasley. The main reason is because Quinn is taking over the defense and Quinn has the ultimate confidence that he can get Beasley to where he needs to be for this defense.

Get Beasley cheap now for a few years and watch Quinn get the best out of him. Win Win solution.

When Quinn took over the defense at the end of the regular season in 2016, consider Beasley had 6 sacks in 5 games.

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8 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

I can't endorse that.  That would be in the neighborhood of $14M AAV between Freeman/Coleman.  It's just way too much at that position.

Which is fine it's a 2 back system, and TC is the quintessential back kitty needs.

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1 minute ago, ATLFalcons11 said:

Agreed. I personally see a 2-3 year contract for Beasley. The main reason is because Quinn is taking over the defense and Quinn has the ultimate confidence that he can get Beasley to where he needs to be for this defense.

Get Beasley cheap now for a few years and watch Quinn get the best out of him. Win Win solution.

When Quinn took over the defense at the end of the regular season in 2016, consider Beasley had 6 sacks in 5 games.

I brought this up above...but why would Beasley want to settle for a 'cheap' contract now?

He is scheduled to make $12M this year.  if the Falcons cut him or don't exercise that 5th year option, he'd have no shortage of suitors on the open market who won't be 'cheap'.  Essentially this will be Beasley's one bite at the FA apple...he's not going to be locked long term on a team friendly deal.

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9 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

I brought this up above...but why would Beasley want to settle for a 'cheap' contract now?

He is scheduled to make $12M this year.  if the Falcons cut him or don't exercise that 5th year option, he'd have no shortage of suitors on the open market who won't be 'cheap'.  Essentially this will be Beasley's one bite at the FA apple...he's not going to be locked long term on a team friendly deal.

I could see us getting him on the initial contract Irvin got or a bit higher. I think it was 4 yrs 39m for Irvin. If we got Vic around 10m a year and spread cap hit that’s fair for both sides. I really don’t want to give up on Vic. I think Manuel stunted his growth a bit

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52 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

How does Kazee see the field is Allen, Neal, Poole are all active?  Poole played 80% of the defensive snaps this year.  Neal/Allen when healthy/active are always on the field.  If DQ is 'about the ball'...I don't see how you tell the NFL leader in INT's in his second season 'you play in dime/big nickel packages now'.

Allen in his career has 7 INT's and 13 PD's (drafted in 2014).
Poole in his career 4 INT's and 19 PD's (UDFA in 2016)

Kazee in 2018 had 7 INT's and 10 PD's.

Poole isn't cut so much as non-tendered.  And admittedly, I may not be as high on Allen as some/most...but we're obviously committed to him.  The thing about our defense is that I'm OK going toe-to-toe with a team point-for-point.  We have the offense to win games 38-35.  But I want playmakers on the field...guys that cause that hesitation by the QB to try and fit that ball in.  Of the 4 safeties/NB's...Kazee really is the only one that demonstrated AND executed that mentality.  And if we win the takeaway battle...that's when I think this team is most dangerous.

I think Poole needs to be brought back even if giving him $2 mil on a tender is what it takes.  If we walk away from Alford it makes sense to keep him and have Trufant/Oliver/Kazee/Poole as our core. He is $6 mil cheaper than Alford if we cut him which can be better spent elsewhere. If Alford wants to restructure and come back at a lower price point, different story.

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55 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

How does Kazee see the field is Allen, Neal, Poole are all active?  Poole played 80% of the defensive snaps this year.  Neal/Allen when healthy/active are always on the field.  If DQ is 'about the ball'...I don't see how you tell the NFL leader in INT's in his second season 'you play in dime/big nickel packages now'.

Allen in his career has 7 INT's and 13 PD's (drafted in 2014).
Poole in his career 4 INT's and 19 PD's (UDFA in 2016)

Kazee in 2018 had 7 INT's and 10 PD's.

Poole isn't cut so much as non-tendered.  And admittedly, I may not be as high on Allen as some/most...but we're obviously committed to him.  The thing about our defense is that I'm OK going toe-to-toe with a team point-for-point.  We have the offense to win games 38-35.  But I want playmakers on the field...guys that cause that hesitation by the QB to try and fit that ball in.  Of the 4 safeties/NB's...Kazee really is the only one that demonstrated AND executed that mentality.  And if we win the takeaway battle...that's when I think this team is most dangerous.

Comes down to match ups. Poole is a solid, physical nickel CB, but when it's time to play vs air teams, he's miscast and can be picked on. Poole is great vs the Panthers but a potential liability vs the Saints. I'm not concerned about Poole getting playing time. Rico can give you what he does plus some in the times he's inactive, if that even happens. 

I think it will be easy to get Kazee on the field. He can play deep middle, as we've seen, and he can play nickel. Same with Rico. Just go back to the Bucs and Vikings games last year when we saw Rico playing down at nickel. He can do it and is still good at it. But he's also a much better base FS than Kazee, making right reads and alignment corrections to prevent big plays when there are only 1-2 WRs on the field. 

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2 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

I could see us getting him on the initial contract Irvin got or a bit higher. I think it was 4 yrs 39m for Irvin. If we got Vic around 10m a year and spread cap hit that’s fair for both sides. I really don’t want to give up on Vic. I think Manuel stunted his growth a bit

But do you want to be committed to him for 4 years?  I think that's the dilemma the Falcons have with Beasley.  He is overpriced for 2019 based on 2017-2018 production.  And if he has another 'dud' of a season...we've just essentially committed ourselves thru at least 2021.

If he turns into a stud - great...I don't mind paying for production.  And I'm not giving up on him in this 1 year scenario.  But what I am protecting against is tying us into a bad contract.  And let's say Beasley balls out and he's too expensive to sign given other 'priorities', then we likely get 3rd round comp pick in 2021.

But I don't think Beasley bites on a long term deal that seeks to get him cheaply...and the Falcons should try and structure a deal that provides more cap space this year.  It's not an ideal situation...but it's the best option I think for both.

 

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31 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

But do you want to be committed to him for 4 years?  I think that's the dilemma the Falcons have with Beasley.  He is overpriced for 2019 based on 2017-2018 production.  And if he has another 'dud' of a season...we've just essentially committed ourselves thru at least 2021.

If he turns into a stud - great...I don't mind paying for production.  And I'm not giving up on him in this 1 year scenario.  But what I am protecting against is tying us into a bad contract.  And let's say Beasley balls out and he's too expensive to sign given other 'priorities', then we likely get 3rd round comp pick in 2021.

But I don't think Beasley bites on a long term deal that seeks to get him cheaply...and the Falcons should try and structure a deal that provides more cap space this year.  It's not an ideal situation...but it's the best option I think for both.

 

There is obviously risk but pas rushers as a whole do tend to be inconsistent their first five years or so in the NFL. Second, you can see the decline in production from not only Vic but also Takk under Manuel. I honestly think Manuel was over his head. Lastly, Vic still had five Saks 3 FFs had an int. Not horrible numbers. Forget where he was drafted at.

now would I give him a 5 or 6 year 60m plus deal? Nah, but a fiur year in the 9-11m range? I absolutely would 

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6 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

There is obviously risk but pas rushers as a whole do tend to be inconsistent their first five years or so in the NFL. Second, you can see the decline in production from not only Vic but also Takk under Manuel. I honestly think Manuel was over his head. Lastly, Vic still had five Saks 3 FFs had an int. Not horrible numbers. Forget where he was drafted at.

now would I give him a 5 or 6 year 60m plus deal? Nah, but a four year in the 9-11m range? I absolutely would 

That would be absolutely foolish. Guys in that range include Cameron Jordan, Ryan Kerrigan, Michael Bennett, Jabaal Sheard, and Jerry Hughes. Vic is not any of those guys. I'd rather pay Brandon Graham in the $9-11MM range than Vic if that's the kind of money you want to spend on that position. 

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3 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

There is obviously risk but pas rushers as a whole do tend to be inconsistent their first five years or so in the NFL. Second, you can see the decline in production from not only Vic but also Takk under Manuel. I honestly think Manuel was over his head. Lastly, Vic still had five Saks 3 FFs had an int. Not horrible numbers. Forget where he was drafted at.

now would I give him a 5 or 6 year 60m plus deal? Nah, but a fiur year in the 9-11m range? I absolutely would 

I think the original question I asked about Beasley remains unanswered.  Why would HE settle for a below market deal now?

3 years ago, Olivier Vernon signed for 5 yrs $85M coming off a 6.5 & 7.5 sack seasons.  At the time he signed his deal, he was 35.  If I'm Beasley, that's the contract I'm playing for.  Whether or not he deserves it, or plays well enough to deserve it is irrelevant to the choice he would have to make today, this off-season.

There is absolutely no motivation for him to play ball with us.

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8 minutes ago, vel said:

That would be absolutely foolish. Guys in that range include Cameron Jordan, Ryan Kerrigan, Michael Bennett, Jabaal Sheard, and Jerry Hughes. Vic is not any of those guys. I'd rather pay Brandon Graham in the $9-11MM range than Vic if that's the kind of money you want to spend on that position. 

Vic has had a more consistent career than Hughes. He only had 10 sacks twice and was inconsistent . Sheard never breached double digits and was again not as consistent. 

Graham finally hit 9.5 sacks in 17 and has been wildly inconsistent. 

So maybe refine your response and reply lol

 

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2 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

I think the original question I asked about Beasley remains unanswered.  Why would HE settle for a below market deal now?

3 years ago, Olivier Vernon signed for 5 yrs $85M coming off a 6.5 & 7.5 sack seasons.  At the time he signed his deal, he was 35.  If I'm Beasley, that's the contract I'm playing for.  Whether or not he deserves it, or plays well enough to deserve it is irrelevant to the choice he would have to make today, this off-season.

There is absolutely no motivation for him to play ball with us.

That we won’t know. Nor can we answer only he can. I just put what I think a decent offer would be based on a similar players contract (Irvin)

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3 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

Vic has had a more consistent career than Hughes. He only had 10 sacks twice and was inconsistent . Sheard never breached double digits and was again not as consistent. 

So maybe refine your response and reply lol

 

Of course you don't have to agree. 

Hughes had back to back 10 sack seasons in his first five seasons. Outside of 2016, Vic has 4-5 sacks. Yep, consistently average. If that's worth $9-11MM, just keep Brooks Reed and give him pass rushing snaps. 

Sheard can actually play all three downs without being a liability and brings consistent pressure. Again, it's not all about sacks. Vic struggles vs any kind of good OT and is terrible in run defense making him a one dimensional pass rusher. Brandon Graham makes $6.5MM and is twice the player Vic is and he's only had zero double digit sack seasons. 

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21 hours ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

FAQ's

Who plays RG?

Good question...I suspect Schweitzer can be given a shot there.  If Sambrailo has acquired some positional versatility, that's an option as well.  If I had to guess, the Falcons would like to give Gono one more redshirt season...but he might be a dark horse.  It's a clear gap...but it's one I'd rather solve on the fly by blue-chipping 2 of the 3 spots DQ's is concerned about versus trying to cover all 3 with 'compromises'.

I like a lot of what you propose but in my limited knowledge of offensive line configurations, I believe the RG is typically the "power" position and LG is the more "finesse" side so I would initially think Cody Ford translates to RG much more comfortably than LG. 

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3 minutes ago, vel said:

Of course you don't have to agree. 

Hughes had back to back 10 sack seasons in his first five seasons. Outside of 2016, Vic has 4-5 sacks. Yep, consistently average. If that's worth $9-11MM, just keep Brooks Reed and give him pass rushing snaps. 

Sheard can actually play all three downs without being a liability and brings consistent pressure. Again, it's not all about sacks. Vic struggles vs any kind of good OT and is terrible in run defense making him a one dimensional pass rusher. Brandon Graham makes $6.5MM and is twice the player Vic is and he's only had zero double digit sack seasons. 

True we don’t have to agree. I think Vic is still a heckuva talent and post Manuel we’ll see the difference. Manuel as you know was simply not a DC

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1 minute ago, Summerhill said:

I like a lot of what you propose but in my limited knowledge of offensive line configurations, I believe the RG is typically the "power" position and LG is the more "finesse" side so I would initially think Cody Ford translates to RG much more comfortably than LG. 

You bring up a point about ford which I can’t make my mind up on—what position. I love the kid, he’s got great feet, he’s smart and has power. Part of me likes him at RT. He’s certainly powerful enough at RG, but he is very good in pass protection so he lines up well at LG.

but what I like so much about ford is he’s not simply a brute. His feet are very good

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