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Is there any chance Dirk Koetter will be a better fit for us than Gary Kubiak would have been?

58 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, JerseyNo12 said:

Blame DQ for that. When Shanny was here, I remember the offense driving 90+ yards in 90 seconds or less and half-time adjustments being made.

And what do Sark and Shanny's failures have to do with Kubiak? So now you're claiming that everyone that runs similar offensive schemes to Shanny has the same issues? Sean McVay, Doug Pederson, Matt Nagy are all the same?

 

I don't think you understand what I mean by clock management.  Koetter would open multiple drives that took 7 or more minutes off the clock.  Yet he could call plays at the end of the 4th with less than 2 minutes........ those are things that were rare shanny or sark did.  

Ryan had the most comebacks in the 4th. Beating Romo.  

As for kubiak failing his first season. It's because ryan takes time to learn WCO, regardles how similar and copy cat sark was to shanny.  So 2 WCO OC with their first year's as duds. Vs 2 regular OC where ryan started out the gate long great.  What do you think another WCO will do? The odds are stacked against you it would have us in the playoffs the first year.

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8 hours ago, mashburn*Fibonacci said:

I don't think you understand what I mean by clock management.  Koetter would open multiple drives that took 7 or more minutes off the clock.  Yet he could call plays at the end of the 4th with less than 2 minutes........ those are things that were rare shanny or sark did.  

Ryan had the most comebacks in the 4th. Beating Romo.  

As for kubiak failing his first season. It's because ryan takes time to learn WCO, regardles how similar and copy cat sark was to shanny.  So 2 WCO OC with their first year's as duds. Vs 2 regular OC where ryan started out the gate long great.  What do you think another WCO will do? The odds are stacked against you it would have us in the playoffs the first year.

Lol Ryan has been in a WCO the last 4 years. Sark was a rookie in the NFL. Kubiak is like a 30 year veteran. He taught Kyle the ropes. There would be no learning curve with Kubiak.

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3 hours ago, JerseyNo12 said:

Lol Ryan has been in a WCO the last 4 years. Sark was a rookie in the NFL. Kubiak is like a 30 year veteran. He taught Kyle the ropes. There would be no learning curve with Kubiak.

All wishful thinking.  

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There probably wouldn't be a learning curve with Kubiak at all.  But Kubiak doesn't want to coach here.

This isn't really hard math y'all. Koetter is a good coordinator who wants to be here.  Kubiak is a good coordinator who can't figure out what he wants to do and was being handcuffed by a team saying they were going to make him their OC (they flaked, but in part because Kubiak is being flaky).

I prefer Kubiak's scheme, style and fit for this team.  But I prefer a lot of coach's schemes, styles and fits for this team (Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, Andy Reid).  They're all otherwise occupied too.

Koetter is the right fit for this team right now.  The QB and one WR both know his offense well.  It isn't hard to pick up in any event (witness 2012 when Koetter melded what he wanted to do with what we were already doing and took us within 1 play and an injured QB of the Super Bowl).  It's all going to be all right.

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17 hours ago, Jesus said:

The whole Kubiak thing was really weird. There was a lot of rumor and then Elway blocked him, then Elway let him go, then who knows what. Is his heart even in it? It all seemed weird to me.

isn't GK still employed in Denver in the front office? who even can say for sure if he's even available to be an OC, or if he really even WANTS to be an OC, now that the opportunities have been presented to him?

 

I'm 'ok' with DK coming back, but as I've said already, we could bring back Vince Lombardi and Bill Walsh, if we don't fix the freaking OLine it won't matter who it is at OC

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1 minute ago, papachaz said:

isn't GK still employed in Denver in the front office? who even can say for sure if he's even available to be an OC, or if he really even WANTS to be an OC, now that the opportunities have been presented to him?

 

I'm 'ok' with DK coming back, but as I've said already, we could bring back Vince Lombardi and Bill Walsh, if we don't fix the freaking OLine it won't matter who it is at OC

What's to stop Kubiak to say in the middle of the season that his heart just isn't in it and quit? At least Koetter wants to be here.

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Koetter, Kubiak, Sark. It doesn't matter that much. Any competent OC is going to put up points with this offensive talent. The real question is, can somebody (anybody!) put a consistently competent defense on the field?

So far, our defensive head coach hasn't shown much of anything on that front. We've gotten spurts of decent play the last four years, but until it's a reliable unit, we aren't going anywhere. 

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5 hours ago, JerseyNo12 said:

Lol Ryan has been in a WCO the last 4 years. Sark was a rookie in the NFL. Kubiak is like a 30 year veteran. He taught Kyle the ropes. There would be no learning curve with Kubiak.

I'm with you here. Terminology between Kubiak and Shanahan's offenses would be the same, at the very least pretty close. When Sark came in, he was the one who had to learn that hence the learning curve. I'd be pretty confident we would hit the ground running under Kubiak.

With Koetter, yes Ryan and Julio have experience in that system but the roster has changed a whole lot in the past 4 years. At the very least there will be terminology changes. I'd also expect us to move away from the outside zone towards more of a power/gap scheme with some inside zone thrown in. 

In my opinion there will be more change under Koetter than there would have been under Kubiak. That's not necessarily a bad thing though and given the choice, DQ and MR2 are obviously on board for the change.

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5 hours ago, mashburn*Fibonacci said:

All wishful thinking.  

Literally several people are echoing the same thing I said, and for good reason. Kyle Shanahan used to be Gary Kubiak's OC in Houston. Kubiak worked with Mike Shanahan as his OC. Kubiak knows the system probably because he's the one who (at least in part) taught it to Kyle. Ask Matt Shaub--heck, that's why he was brought on as a backup. So when you say stuff like "all wishful thinking," I don't know what that's based on but it's not facts.

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1 hour ago, JerseyNo12 said:

Literally several people are echoing the same thing I said, and for good reason. Kyle Shanahan used to be Gary Kubiak's OC in Houston. Kubiak worked with Mike Shanahan as his OC. Kubiak knows the system probably because he's the one who (at least in part) taught it to Kyle. Ask Matt Shaub--heck, that's why he was brought on as a backup. So when you say stuff like "all wishful thinking," I don't know what that's based on but it's not facts.

People thought the hiring of shanny was going to be amazing. however we lost one of our top WR over a cry baby. People thought it was going to be easy to copy Shanny plays. people thought that the addition of vick coach to a QB coach was going to work. etc etc. 

I have mentioned several times with you on what Koetter has done and continues to do. and the fact Ryan rolled great with him and Mularkey is all that is really needed. However you think a system that ryan has failed in 50% of the time, horrible clock management etc etc is the better choice. 

If we would have managed any of the clock (like a team should do) in the 4th of the superbowl, we would have won. regardless Freeman missing a block. but nope. Shanny, Kubiak, sark, chip kelly only know how to attack. and they don't even know how to change plays up. How often did you see ryan scream at shanny saying they should run it and not throw. 

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19 hours ago, mashburn*Fibonacci said:

@JerseyNo12

This is a random one. But several times we opened the drive with draining the clock. And continue to do it a lot throughout the game. 

This video makes a point I've been making about Koetter vs. Shanahan -- it's just 2 ways to do the same thing.  When we line up in 11 personnel, we're sending 2 receivers deep (sometimes 3), and it opens up the underneath (KC was letting us hit the deeper stuff early though, which is always gravy).

Shanahan, by contrast, would just pick, pick, pick that underneath scab until the defense loosened up and let you get a long one:

 

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5 hours ago, Smiler11 said:

I'm with you here. Terminology between Kubiak and Shanahan's offenses would be the same, at the very least pretty close. When Sark came in, he was the one who had to learn that hence the learning curve. I'd be pretty confident we would hit the ground running under Kubiak.

With Koetter, yes Ryan and Julio have experience in that system but the roster has changed a whole lot in the past 4 years. At the very least there will be terminology changes. I'd also expect us to move away from the outside zone towards more of a power/gap scheme with some inside zone thrown in. 

In my opinion there will be more change under Koetter than there would have been under Kubiak. That's not necessarily a bad thing though and given the choice, DQ and MR2 are obviously on board for the change.

The reason I think they are on board with it the most is Ryan hates not being able to change the play at the line. And Quinn hates that he has failed at clock management. both those are things Koetter has excelled in. 

it won't get us a 40 point game. but it will keep us with holding the ball 60% longer and let Ryan change the play at the line. Which also keeps a healthier deffense. 

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36 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

This video makes a point I've been making about Koetter vs. Shanahan -- it's just 2 ways to do the same thing.  When we line up in 11 personnel, we're sending 2 receivers deep (sometimes 3), and it opens up the underneath (KC was letting us hit the deeper stuff early though, which is always gravy).

Shanahan, by contrast, would just pick, pick, pick that underneath scab until the defense loosened up and let you get a long one:

 

I watched were someone posted a lot of these videos yesterday and almost everyone of them you saw Ryan just rip it, and if not, it led to a long scoring drive. 

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3 hours ago, mashburn*Fibonacci said:

People thought the hiring of shanny was going to be amazing. however we lost one of our top WR over a cry baby. People thought it was going to be easy to copy Shanny plays. people thought that the addition of vick coach to a QB coach was going to work. etc etc. 

I have mentioned several times with you on what Koetter has done and continues to do. and the fact Ryan rolled great with him and Mularkey is all that is really needed. However you think a system that ryan has failed in 50% of the time, horrible clock management etc etc is the better choice. 

If we would have managed any of the clock (like a team should do) in the 4th of the superbowl, we would have won. regardless Freeman missing a block. but nope. Shanny, Kubiak, sark, chip kelly only know how to attack. and they don't even know how to change plays up. How often did you see ryan scream at shanny saying they should run it and not throw. 

Dude, you're all over the place and again making stuff up. Roddy was old and clearly lost a couple steps (dude never got signed by any other team). How did Chip Kelly even enter this conversation? You're pretty much pointing at random to people and things with no context and trying to lump anything and anyone associated with the WCO together into one pile of negativity. Meanwhile, you're conveniently ignoring the successes of other coaches who run similar schemes that I did mention earlier (e.g. Sean McVay, Doug Pederson, Matt Nagy, etc...), and the same Gary Kubiak you're criticizing won a Super Bowl in 2015. I don't know, maybe you have some sort of deep-rooted hatred of the Shanahans and anyone associated with them because Mike Shanahan and Gary Kubiak beat the Falcons in Super Bowl 33 and bad decisions by Kyle Shanahan (which is really on Dan Quinn) lead to the loss in Super Bowl LI. Whatever it is, what you're saying is irrational.

First of all, when Kyle Shanahan arrived in Atlanta and installed his scheme, Ryan had, at that point, played in an almost entirely different scheme for his entire professional career (8 years). It's hard to unlearn habits, routines, and tendencies that you've been doing for years--it's the same for everyone. Unless you're some kind of genius, no one just walks into a new environment and hits the floor running. It always takes time and there will always be growing pains. That's what happened in 2015 when Ryan struggled to find his footing in Kyle's system, because besides the difference in verbiage, it's very nuanced and precise when it comes to footwork, timing, the progression, and ball placement. That has nothing to do with the system being bad--that much should be obvious because Ryan and company were destroying defenses with the same system the following year en route to the Super Bowl. So yeah, the hiring of Shanny was amazing.

Sark's first year was much of the same from 2015. Although Ryan and company knew the system, Sark was a rookie to the NFL, so much of their issues stemmed from Sark's inexperience at the pro level. That was just a bad hiring decision by DQ, but hindsight is 20/20. Nevertheless, the team still made the playoffs, won a road playoff game (the first in the Ryan era), and was one play away from going to a second consecutive NFC Championship Game. Again, this has nothing to do with the system, which again, should be obvious because Ryan the following year put up similar numbers from his MVP season (and much better than 2012).

So yes, I contend that the system Shanny installed (and it's variations) is the better choice because Ryan has never played better in any other system, and that's a verifiable fact.

As for clock management and situational football, that's on the head coach. Mike Smith emphasized playing mistake free football and that's why his teams (at least in the first five years of his tenure) won a lot of regular season games, because they were very disciplined. That approach didn't quite work in the playoffs when teams often go for broke, and Mike Smith was generally conservative to a fault. DQ, on the other hand, emphasized effort and being aggressive. That generally worked out, especially in the playoffs, as every playoff victory (3 out of 5) in the DQ era was by multiple possessions. However, the team wasn't very disciplined and quite frankly sucked at situational football, and that's why we saw the blown leads and close losses. If there was a way to basically combine Smitty and DQ, taking each of their strengths in philosophy and approach, we'd get the perfect coach (or close to it, like Bill Belichick). In other words, If DQ coached the first three quarters of Super Bowl LI and Mike Smith coached the 4th quarter, we'd have a Lombardi trophy in Atlanta. Since Koetter and Mularkey both worked for Smitty, maybe we're getting that in the future as they know Smitty's philosophy and approach and can teach that to DQ.

The OC just designs the offense and calls the plays man. It's the head coach's responsibility to manage the game. And as far as coaching offense is concerned, Kubiak and Shanahan are top notch. If Kubiak was available, I'm almost certain he would be in Atlanta right now as opposed to Koetter. Granted, Koetter isn't a bad choice (provided he keeps the designs and concepts that Ryan and company were successful with when Shanahan was in Atlanta), but I think Kubiak may have been the better choice, because he knows Shanahan's offense and Ryan wouldn't need to teach him anything about it. It doesn't matter now because Koetter's already been hired, so it's water under the bridge. But let's not pretend that Ryan's success in the WCO is some kind of fluke, because that's as much a slight against Ryan as it is the system and coaches you're trying to disparage.

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9 hours ago, mashburn*Fibonacci said:

The reason I think they are on board with it the most is Ryan hates not being able to change the play at the line. And Quinn hates that he has failed at clock management. both those are things Koetter has excelled in. 

it won't get us a 40 point game. but it will keep us with holding the ball 60% longer and let Ryan change the play at the line. Which also keeps a healthier deffense. 

Yep whatever you thought of Koetter's offense here, he certainly gave Ryan more freedom than under any other OC in his career. I'm hoping to see some more no huddle again.

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On 1/14/2019 at 4:21 AM, JerseyNo12 said:

Lol Ryan has been in a WCO the last 4 years. Sark was a rookie in the NFL. Kubiak is like a 30 year veteran. He taught Kyle the ropes. There would be no learning curve with Kubiak.

Actually there would be a slight learning curve with Kubiak. Kubiak and Matt would have had to learn each other's personalities and what fits for Matt and what doesn't. Also, no two coaches are identical regardless of whether or not one taught the other. Just because Kyle Shanahan learned a lot of what he knows from Gary Kubiak doesn't mean that he hasn't tweaked it and changed it over the years to fit "his" style. Why? Because we're humans and no two humans are identical, not even identical twins. Each person has their own way that they like to do things.

Also, remember how folks used to hate Kyle for being so "stubborn?" Kubiak is ten times worse than Kyle. In 2015 when the Broncos offense couldn't do squat because Peyton Manning physically couldn't do what Kubiak was asking him to do on a regular basis (bootlegs and roll outs) did Kubiak make adjustments to accommodate Peyton? No. The change that was made was Peyton getting benched. This is just total speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if word eventually leaked that the way Kubiak handled the Peyton situation influenced the butting of heads between Kubiak and Elway that led to Kubiak ending up in Minnesota.

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20 hours ago, JDaveG said:

There probably wouldn't be a learning curve with Kubiak at all.  But Kubiak doesn't want to coach here.

This isn't really hard math y'all. Koetter is a good coordinator who wants to be here.  Kubiak is a good coordinator who can't figure out what he wants to do and was being handcuffed by a team saying they were going to make him their OC (they flaked, but in part because Kubiak is being flaky).

I prefer Kubiak's scheme, style and fit for this team.  But I prefer a lot of coach's schemes, styles and fits for this team (Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, Andy Reid).  They're all otherwise occupied too.

Koetter is the right fit for this team right now.  The QB and one WR both know his offense well.  It isn't hard to pick up in any event (witness 2012 when Koetter melded what he wanted to do with what we were already doing and took us within 1 play and an injured QB of the Super Bowl).  It's all going to be all right.

I think one of the reasons Koetter and Mularkey were hired together was because of the first time around when Koetter came in and kept in place a lot of what Mularkey was already doing and how well the offense looked in 2012. I think the thinking is that if we can get them to work together to implement what they're good at to what's already in place, it will enhance the offense without it being a major shakeup to the general makeup of the offense. But as has been pointed out, it doesn't matter who's calling plays or what the offensive system/concept is if the offensive line issues aren't fixed.

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:31 PM, mashburn*Fibonacci said:

Sark ran the exact exact same as shanny ran.  It took ryan another year of failure,  then it started to work the second year. You have no reason to believe we will be fine.

And regardless with Kubiak, shanny, sark there is no clock management, change to the line,  or ryan in control, or even coming back within 2 minutes.

Mr. Positive over here. Sark did NOT run the exact same thing as shanny...just because you see rollouts and wide zone runs doesn't mean it's the same offensive scheme... someone has to learn his football

Edited by mtldirtybird
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The bright side may be that we don’t have to watch Teco lose 3 yards on 2nd and 9 running that bs sweep play that never ever works. Well maybe a couple times it did but I swear that play had the biggest fail rate of any I’ve seen us run. Not to mention we all knew it was comming. Imagine how easy it was for a good defense to figure out. We probably woulda had better luck punting on 2nd. Nvm our defense sucked too.g

 

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1 hour ago, mtldirtybird said:

Mr. Positive over here. Sark did NOT run the exact same thing as shanny...just because you see rollouts and wide zone runs doesn't mean it's the same offensive scheme... someone has to learn his football

Exactly. The reason year 1 was such a disaster was because Sark was attempting to run the offense exactly as Shanny did. ****, they were even using Shanny's playbook and terminology. They didn't change anything. They just gave Sark a copy of the playbook and told him to go call plays like Kyle. That was so doomed for failure before the first snap because that's not the way football works. They realized the error of their ways and during the summer between 2017 and 2018 they like Sark modify the offense to his standards and we saw much better results because of it.

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Have to say a resounding yes since it seems Kubiak wants to be an advisor instead of putting in the hours as an OC.

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:15 PM, Falcons Fan MVP said:

Many of us are very disappointed that Gary Kubiak is available as an offensive coordinator now that we have already committed to Koetter. Are there any reasons for us to be relieved that we got Dirk Koetter instead of Gary Kubiak? Will it be that big of a deal which one it is in a playoff environment? Do you think Koetter would have been hired regardless if Kubiak was available? Your thoughts?

I believe Gary Kubiak, owner of FOUR SB rings, would be a better OC than Koetter. I believe Gary would have run a system that is more inline with what we have been attempting to do with the Mike Shanny/Kyle Shanny offenses.

I have zero proof, and they are just my beliefs.

But Gary Kubiak has proof in the form of big phat SB rings.

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6 minutes ago, runshoot said:

I believe Gary Kubiak, owner of FOUR SB rings, would be a better OC than Koetter. I believe Gary would have run a system that is more inline with what we have been attempting to do with the Mike Shanny/Kyle Shanny offenses.

I have zero proof, and they are just my beliefs.

But Gary Kubiak has proof in the form of big phat SB rings.

Those things are probably all true.  It is also true that Sean McVay would likely have more continuity with what we're trying to do.  Or Jay Gruden.  Or Andy Reid.

And none of those people want to coach here right now either.  That's the long and short of it and wishing for Kubiak isn't going to change it.  Kubiak doesn't want to be here.  I wish him the best and I think we made a great hire, that being the case.

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