Knight of God

Opposite Of A Koetter Fan - Need The Brotherhood’s Help

188 posts in this topic

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8 hours ago, Tandy said:

But I don't think our defense is built for that.   Our most painful loss ever.   The Super Bowl from ****.

Look at what really happened to our defense there.    They were gassed to death.   Why?   Our offense broke down in the second half.   They couldn't sustain a drive.   The center was playing on a broken leg and it caught up with him.   We lost Schraeder and Coleman in the 4th - there went blocking.   

Yes - there were a lot of chances.   There were some poor play calls.   There were some suspect calls from the refs.   We could have kneeled and kicked the ball.   But, our defense could have stopped the Patriots from scoring on 5 straight possessions if they hadn't been so gassed.   In the 4th quarter alone - the time of possession was 10+ minutes for the patriots out of 15 minutes.

Sack/fumble and a couple 3&Outs will do that.

You live and die by how you got there. That’s why they doubled-down on staying aggressive.

This allowed for the “execution” fail on the unblocked blitzing LB in the aforementioned play.

Would 2019 Falcons D to come or 2017 even have crumbled like that? Yeah 2018 was pretty bad.

We want to be our best version of ourself and it’s play to OUR strength instead of HIDE our weakness.

We just need that TO happy late 2016 D. Get sacks. T A C K L E.

All would’ve still been fine had you kicked the game winning FG. Not one sane Falcon fan would complain about having a trophy because you played to win YOUR way.

That identity as an offense hasn’t been as consistent since then. And the closest we came earlier this season vs NO and Cincy we had some truly terrible D performances.

At some point, the D takes SOME blame for staying on the field early in games. We started facing concerted effort at Plays/Drive after that SB from opposing teams.

Score and look for situations/in game tempo to protect your D. But we should ride or die on O.

Quinn full time D can’t hurt. The in game chess should be after scoring. Ball control needs to be situational but not at the expense of points; just game flow where you can dictate it.

Edited by Ergo Proxy
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51 minutes ago, JOEinPHX said:

 

 

I can give you guys at least part of the picture, and it's the only part that really matters.  Andy (and yes my Canadian brother, he's my son) decided to leave the NFL regardless of what his future there might be.  He has two children now and the NFL lifestyle didn't leave him time to be the kind of father he needs to be.  Here's the karma part though.  Rick Neuheisel heard through the grapevine that Andy was making himself a free agent and asked him to join the staff of the new Arizona AAF franchise.  Hired him on the basis of references and a phone conversation.  So the whole family is moving to Phoenix, he bought a house just a mile away, and I'll have unlimited grandkid access.  He's in San Antonio right now at Hotshots training camp, RBs coach, and since he's the only guy on staff who can install a proven NFL offense, I won't be surprised if he's promoted to OC.  The best part from his standpoint is that the AAF franchises only work five months out of the year, so he gets to be a dad, he'll have time to start up a business venture he's planning, and his pay - on an hourly basis anyway -  will actually be a bit better than his NFL money.

Congrats to your son, to your family - and most of all - to his kids!

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11 hours ago, falcons007 said:

Falcons had one of the least amount of drives in last 3 seasons with one of the top tome of possession. My guess is DQ wants to go in opposite direction with explosive offense over efficient offense. May be he is hopeful the defense will be able to hold its own with quick strike offense.

Or we can learn to do both well, on demand?

I think that's the goal. MM isn't just a TE coach hire. He knows power run football and should help influence OL decisions in a helpful way.

Get that right and we can spin a wheel on plays to call. Almost anything in any system Ryan has played in would work with the weapons we have; fix the OL.

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20 hours ago, Knight of God said:

Man, without using stats. Not a fan of that. Help me to truly get excited about this hire. I will be honest, I do like Mularkey. Not really Knapp. 

My thing is, I’m a run game guy. It’s one of the reasons I barely discussed Bama as much. Too many times we passed when we should have run this past season and in that complete beat down last night. 

Defense and running. That’s my passion in this game. Control the clock, attack the backfield. Verts just doesn’t suit me. Not a fan at all. I don’t want to argue about 2012. I don’t care about 2012. I’m jealous of you excited folks, I want to be excited too. 

I will be honest. There are three people in football I just don’t like. I won’t explain why, but I just don’t like these three people. We’re talk pros and not Petrino. He’s low hanging fruit.

Josh McDaniels, Dirk Koetter, and Jason Garrett. It’s my team and it would be d-0ushy to not share with my brothers and some of you RL friends. So, give me some info that will make me less ambivalent for the 2019-2020 season. Thanks

3

don't get excited expect a new head coach next year

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4 hours ago, Knight of God said:

Let’s keep it going guys. I’m sold thanks to @JDaveG but many aren’t. Keep it going

I'm done. I've got nothing left to offer. I did my best to post the positives and if that's not enough then so be it.

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1 hour ago, Falconsfan567 said:

I'm done. I've got nothing left to offer. I did my best to post the positives and if that's not enough then so be it.

Brother. I said I’m sold. Lol. Your posts did a lot to help man, I just know better than to engage you when you’re passionate about something. It isn’t wise to do. :lol:

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4 hours ago, Falconsfan567 said:

I'm done. I've got nothing left to offer. I did my best to post the positives and if that's not enough then so be it.

now that Adam Gase has been hired as the Jets new HC, we got the best OC out the remaining candidates anyway. Koetter was my 3rd choice after Kubiak and Gase because he's the more aggressive of the choices and he's very disrespectful. DK is trying to score every play and I love it, but at the same time if you give him a RB he'll run on that behind

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On 1/9/2019 at 10:57 AM, JDaveG said:

Let me offer this, because it's something you taught me.  Before you and I discussed this (when Shanahan was hired), I always thought in terms of systems.  You have the Coryell system (and its variants), the WCO system (and its variants), Ehrardt-Perkins system (and variants).  What you taught me was the WCO is as much a philosophy as anything.  I still think "system" is accurate, because the WCO more than other types of offenses is symbiotic.  It relies upon certain patterns on run versus pass, how the run game works, when to use it, etc.  But I also think "philosophy" is accurate to describe that.

Here is my point.  A lot of people run 4 verticals.  Two of them most people don't think of are Kyle Shanahan and Sean Payton.  Now, Shanahan brought the quick hitting, get the ball out fast philosophy here, but he would use 4 verticals to stress the safeties frequently, even at the goal line.  Payton does as well.  And with regard to Payton, I don't think anyone would say Drew Brees holds onto the ball too long waiting for routes to develop.  So those guys have figured out how to meld a strong running game with a quick hitting passing attack and still send out 4 verticals in proper situations and still hit the deep ball.  They are very different philosophically, but they manage to do the exact same things in the exact same ways to stress defenses.  At some point, philosophy is great, but football is football.

How does that all apply to Koetter?  Well, most of these guys are using the same plays to greater or lesser degree.  Everyone runs a sprint option.  Everyone sends the RB out of the backfield on pass routes.  Everyone uses the TE both for stick routes and vertical routes.  Everyone is trying to stretch the defense.  Everyone uses play action.  Vertical offenses try to do this by sending more people deep than the secondary can cover (and again, "deep" here doesn't mean a 60 yard pass -- 15-20 yards is "deep").  The WCO does it by flooding the field horizontally to make the safety decide who to leave open.  Both can be explosive, and both can be conservative.  Mix in the fact that Koetter has adopted (and kept) Ehrardt-Perkins terminology into his offense, and you really have more of a hybrid offense than anything that can be purely traced to, say, Don Coryell.

Koetter isn't going to come here and run anything resembling Shanahan's offense in terms of philosophy.  He isn't going to have a maddening fixation on the QB's footwork.  He isn't going to run outside zone almost exclusively.  He isn't going to run those WCO staple plays that feed off of misdirection (he'll have misdirection, but it won't be the same thing).  But he can, and I think he will, come in and take what is working well for us now, mix it in with the system he likes to run, use the terminology he likes to use, and figure out a way to get the most out of this offense.

Realistically, that's the best we could hope for here.  Because a bad WCO coordinator (and I'm one who doesn't think Bevell is "bad," FWIW) is worse than a great Coryell coordinator.  And vice-versa.  

Really, we need to fix the o-line, because it was my biggest concern when Koetter got here and it's still a concern.  Quinn seems intent on doing that.  Mularkey will help.  If we stick with zone concepts, Knapp will help.  If we do that, you'll get as much run as you want, and we'll still be blowing the top off of defenses.

That's a big "if."  But the o-line is the key as far as I'm concerned.  Fix the o-line and this offense will light it up.

Sorry to quote all of this, but this is such a well thought out post, it deserves it. 

Thank you for this, @JDaveG. As a WCO guy, I distrusted this hire. But You've helped me get my arms around this as well. 

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26 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Sorry to quote, but this is such a well thought out post, it deserves it. 

Thank you for this, @JDaveG. As a WCO guy, I was distrust over this hire. But You helped me get my arms around this as well. 

Once you realize they're all doing the same thing in different ways, it makes it easier to accept that mostly it's the players and the coach more than the system.  I have preferences, but they all work.

Just looking at 21 personnel (simple and old school), does it really matter whether you're stretching the field vertically by sending 2 guys deep and running up the middle to make the safeties respect the deep pass and the linebackers respect the run?  In the end, you aren't hitting those deep routes all the time, so you're really working your RB and TE over the middle of the field on most plays, which makes the linebackers have to work deeper than they like (because they don't want the play behind them) and that helps out the run game, which in turn helps out the pass game.  Or whether you're stretching it horizontally by using stretch run plays and sending the backs and TE into pass routes and the receivers on sideline-to-sideline routes to stress the linebackers and safeties, who now have to cover pass routes, which then opens up the run game and the deep passing game?  Either way, you're accomplishing the same thing.  The point is to make the defense cover more ground.  And both systems are about stressing the underneath coverage.

But then, go beyond that.  Now you have the spread, which is where 4 verticals comes in (and why Koetter likes it).  In the 4 verticals concept, you're stretching it both ways.  You have the horizontal stretch of the WCO simply because you have so many receivers on the field so the defense has to either be in nickel or dime (taking linebackers off the field, which helps in the run game) or have linebackers and safeties head up on wide receivers, and they also have to cover sideline to sideline simply because that's where the receivers are.  And you're sending all 4 receivers deep, so you also stretch the field vertically, making life hard on the safeties and the linebackers, who now have the same problem if you decide to run or leak a RB or TE (depending on your personnel) over the middle.  You're forcing the other team to defend even more ground now, because you have so many guys working in space (this is one reason, by the way, that a lot of offenses of whatever stripe do better between the 20s than in the red zone -- less field to cover in the latter, so less stress you can apply).

Smart coaches (like Shanahan, or Payton, or whoever) try to work in vertical routes on horizontal stretch plays to effect the same thing (or vice-versa).  Koetter is a smart coach.  He does this.  It's all really basically the same thing.

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2 hours ago, JDaveG said:

Once you realize they're all doing the same thing in different ways, it makes it easier to accept that mostly it's the players and the coach more than the system.  I have preferences, but they all work.

To piggyback off of this, I wanted to make this article a whole topic, but it's a long article.

https://www.ganggreennation.com/2018/10/16/17983902/its-time-to-change-the-way-we-talk-about-nfl-offensive-systems

It basically speaks to this, something I think a lot of us end up being guilty of. Current offenses are all basically the same. The distinction between Coryell and West Coast and Air Raid is essentially gone. After decades of football, expecting somebody to run a scheme that was created so long ago is pretty foolish, but a lot of us fall into it. 

Here's a part that I think helps drive your initial point home:

Quote

Offenses today have changed. Teams don’t run the Coryell or Walsh offenses. Knicks fans in recent years about how their team was running the decades old Triangle Offense. (Cut to a shot of Knicks fans nodding wistfully.) Teams across the league, notably the Warriors, have adopted elements of the Triangle into their offensive systems, but nobody is saying the offshoot the Warriors run is the “Triangle Offense.” Yet a good chunk of the NFL is allegedly running the Bill Walsh West Coast Offense.

In some ways I would say it’s an insult to Coryell and Walsh to associate them with some of the uncreative offenses of today’s NFL. If they were around today, they wouldn’t be running the same offenses they ran in the 1980’s. They would be at the cutting edge of the next advances. That’s how Erhardt was. Even though his offense with the Patriots of the 1970’s was a smashmouth unit, Erhardt adapted with the times. As Steelers offensive coordinator in the 1990’s, he, working with wide receivers coach Chan Gailey, became one of the early adopters of using four and five receiver sets on passing downs since extra receivers were more skilled and more likely to make plays on critical passing downs than running backs and tight ends.

In addition to tempo, another of the next offensive frontiers in football is exploiting the fact defenders have assignments against both the pass and the run on a given play. Teams are building on traditional play action drawing defenders out of passing lanes. We now have run-pass options, which allow the quarterback to target one defender. The quarterback can throw if that defender executes his run assignment or hand the ball off if the defender drops into his coverage assignment. Additionally, teams are creating new actions on run plays, utilizing wide receivers as options on handoffs.

Few teams are as new age on offense as Andy Reid’s Kansas City Chiefs.

On this particular play, the Chiefs are running four verticals, a fairly common play to attack the deep part of the field. As you might expect, there are four receivers running vertical routes. This play has some of that new age twist, though, as a receiver comes into motion for a potential sweep play.

 

chiefs1.png

This leaves one defender in a bind as he has both a run assignment and man coverage against the back in the event of a pass.

 

chiefs2.png

He can’t do two things at once. Committing to the run means his guy is left wide open if there is a pass.

 

chiefs3.png

 

chiefs4.png

This isn’t your traditional West Coast Offense. Maybe we should say Doug Pederson, Matt Nagy, and other Reid proteges from Kansas City are running the Paris of the Plains Offense. Thirty years from now we can come up with a new name.

But for now I’ll take it if we can just cut back on calling what the Chiefs do the West Coast Offense.

 

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14 minutes ago, vel said:

To piggyback off of this, I wanted to make this article a whole topic, but it's a long article.

https://www.ganggreennation.com/2018/10/16/17983902/its-time-to-change-the-way-we-talk-about-nfl-offensive-systems

It basically speaks to this, something I think a lot of us end up being guilty of. Current offenses are all basically the same. The distinction between Coryell and West Coast and Air Raid is essentially gone. After decades of football, expecting somebody to run a scheme that was created so long ago is pretty foolish, but a lot of us fall into it. 

Here's a part that I think helps drive your initial point home:

 

Great stuff, which makes the point far better than I did.  To me, the "West Coast Offense" is a set of principles you apply to how to run an offense:

1)  Spread the field horizontally to let the pass open up the run game.

2)  Use shorter passes to control the clock and move the chains.

3)  Use timing routes with precise QB footwork to make the QB's reads faster.

4)  Pass to get a lead, run to close out the game.

Some folks (namely from the Kubiak/Shanahan tree) can be more run first, and certainly the outside zone blocking scheme marries well with the WCO.  But that isn't the only system that can use it.  Beyond that, most of these guys (Reid, as you note, Shanahan as I noted earlier) incorporate a lot of vertical stretches into what they do.  I didn't mention RPOs, but one thing I was thinking last night is that Koetter can certainly incorporate a lot of that here to help the o-line, along with screens, in the pass game, and to get the defense guessing in the run and pass games.  

Koetter already uses timing routes.  I said either upstream or elsewhere Koetter's closest comparison in recent NFL history is Mike Martz.  He also used timing routes, throwing to space -- both WCO concepts.  It won't be as regimented as what Shanahan ran, but it's still there.

The key is having a bright offensive mind.  Koetter has that in spades.  Andy Reid, referenced in your post, once said of Koetter:

“Phenomenal, phenomenal — unbelievable football coach.  One of the best ones I’ve ever been around. I had no doubt he’d get in this league as a head coach.”

Koetter praises Reid's attention to detail, something we've all talked about needing here.  He does so in the context of being fortunate to work with Reid and learn that from him.

Now, the fact that Andy Reid likes you doesn't mean you're going to be a success.  But since Koetter has been a success, and given Reid's praise for him as a football mind, I think that relationship shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat, schematically.  Because Reid is a WCO guy and Koetter is a Coryell guy, and yet they approach the game very similarly.

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I think I may be one of the few that absolutely loves this hire.  Maybe I've been looking for excuses, but I look at DK's time in Atlanta and Tampa, and he he had a top 10 offense 5 out of 7 years.  His passing offense's have been top 11 in the league in TD 6 of those 7 years.  Where he appears to have struggled absolutely is with his running offenses.  Of the last 7 seasons, only 2 years did he have over 400 rush attempts(both with Doug Martin in the mix).  Again, looking for excuses, he's been paired with some pretty atrocious defenses as well.  I look at that to try to surmise whether or not his offenses are having to come back in games late, whether the defenses are able to get off the field, etc.  He has one defense in the top 10 in points allowed in the 7 years.  His offenses have had to keep scoring because between Mike Smith and Lovie Smith, he hasn't had that luxury.  

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How many times did we say during Koetter's first stint here, "get Matt a defense and we'll win a Super Bowl?"

How many people in 2015 said "we should have never let Koetter go, Shanahan is ruining this offense? The offense was never the problem!"

People forget.  Especially when something like 2016 happens.

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4 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

Great stuff, which makes the point far better than I did.  To me, the "West Coast Offense" is a set of principles you apply to how to run an offense:

1)  Spread the field horizontally to let the pass open up the run game.

2)  Use shorter passes to control the clock and move the chains.

3)  Use timing routes with precise QB footwork to make the QB's reads faster.

4)  Pass to get a lead, run to close out the game.

Some folks (namely from the Kubiak/Shanahan tree) can be more run first, and certainly the outside zone blocking scheme marries well with the WCO.  But that isn't the only system that can use it.  Beyond that, most of these guys (Reid, as you note, Shanahan as I noted earlier) incorporate a lot of vertical stretches into what they do.  I didn't mention RPOs, but one thing I was thinking last night is that Koetter can certainly incorporate a lot of that here to help the o-line, along with screens, in the pass game, and to get the defense guessing in the run and pass games.  

Koetter already uses timing routes.  I said either upstream or elsewhere Koetter's closest comparison in recent NFL history is Mike Martz.  He also used timing routes, throwing to space -- both WCO concepts.  It won't be as regimented as what Shanahan ran, but it's still there.

The key is having a bright offensive mind.  Koetter has that in spades.  Andy Reid, referenced in your post, once said of Koetter:

“Phenomenal, phenomenal — unbelievable football coach.  One of the best ones I’ve ever been around. I had no doubt he’d get in this league as a head coach.”

Koetter praises Reid's attention to detail, something we've all talked about needing here.  He does so in the context of being fortunate to work with Reid and learn that from him.

Now, the fact that Andy Reid likes you doesn't mean you're going to be a success.  But since Koetter has been a success, and given Reid's praise for him as a football mind, I think that relationship shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat, schematically.  Because Reid is a WCO guy and Koetter is a Coryell guy, and yet they approach the game very similarly.

The bold/underlined part is what I think is the biggest key. If we're being honest, the best offenses in the league aren't married to any one "scheme". It's innovative and constantly overwhelming. You can't tell me you look at the Chiefs offense and think West Coast. No way. Look how the Ravens completely revamped that offense to fit it for Lamar midseason. 

DQ talked about finding a guy who can maximize the current personnel. Koetter can do that. Can Koetter keep up with the direction the league is going? I think so. I think having Knapp and Mularkey will only help. 

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30 minutes ago, vel said:

I think having Knapp and Mularkey will only help. 

The main knock I saw about Mularkey was that he was too conservative. Not sure how true that was since he had Ryan during his earlier years, when he was paired w/ Turner, but how innovative is he? I don't recall a lot about him before his first run w/ us outside of him being HC of the Bills(I think)

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For me I want an OC that uses all his tools in the tool bag.

Now this is why I came around to KS.

He used all his tools to his strengths and even positions like f/back 2 & 3 TE sets ran out of passing personnel and vice a versa.

Protecting and having a Oline then doesn’t become so much of an issue because teams are always off balance.For me this is the difference between good and great.

Even Ryan improved out of sight as a QB under the given OC.Throwing on the move bootlegs general pocket mobility improved.Mixed up the mention with the straight drop backs again keeping teams off balance.

I know he’s gone and won’t be back but when we are talking total package as an OC,KS craps over any of these other guys we’ve had in the last decade.

Koetter yes I’ll get behind him but watching his tenure and the mentioned above tenure I think it’s just tough to see right now with the mentioned.

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30 minutes ago, A Pimp Named Slickback™ said:

The main knock I saw about Mularkey was that he was too conservative. Not sure how true that was since he had Ryan during his earlier years, when he was paired w/ Turner, but how innovative is he? I don't recall a lot about him before his first run w/ us outside of him being HC of the Bills(I think)

Oh I only meant that in the run game. Exotic Smashmouth still rings true in my ears here in Nashville. Mularkey sure knew how to scheme up a running game to put a game away. If he can give Koetter some of that, then that's a win. 

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23 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

For me I want an OC that uses all his tools in the tool bag.

Now this is why I came around to KS.

He used all his tools to his strengths and even positions like f/back 2 & 3 TE sets ran out of passing personnel and vice a versa.

Protecting and having a Oline then doesn’t become so much of an issue because teams are always off balance.For me this is the difference between good and great.

Even Ryan improved out of sight as a QB under the given OC.Throwing on the move bootlegs general pocket mobility improved.Mixed up the mention with the straight drop backs again keeping teams off balance.

I know he’s gone and won’t be back but when we are talking total package as an OC,KS craps over any of these other guys we’ve had in the last decade.

Koetter yes I’ll get behind him but watching his tenure and the mentioned above tenure I think it’s just tough to see right now with the mentioned.

It really all comes down to how good of an OL we have going into the season. If it's a subpar group, then it won't be a good offense. Giving Koetter a blank slate allows them to mold this OL to what they need it to be. If they can sign at least one good one in FA, then I think they can fix it this offseason. 

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33 minutes ago, A Pimp Named Slickback™ said:

The main knock I saw about Mularkey was that he was too conservative. Not sure how true that was since he had Ryan during his earlier years, when he was paired w/ Turner, but how innovative is he? I don't recall a lot about him before his first run w/ us outside of him being HC of the Bills(I think)

He was the coach in Pittsburgh that designed all those trick plays for Antwan Randal-El.  His nickname is "Inspector Gadget."

I was done with him after 2011 because basically the o-line sucked and he refused to even try to stretch the field deep, ensuring the offense couldn't get out of its own way.  He decided to run the entire game.  It was gutless.  But I was probably too harsh on him that season.  Then again, Koetter came in for the 2012 season and it was like a different offense, even though Koetter kept a lot of the playbook and terminology from Mularkey.

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1 minute ago, JDaveG said:

He was the coach in Pittsburgh that designed all those trick plays for Antwan Randal-El.  His nickname is "Inspector Gadget."

I was done with him after 2011 because basically the o-line sucked and he refused to even try to stretch the field deep, ensuring the offense couldn't get out of its own way.  He decided to run the entire game.  It was gutless.  But I was probably too harsh on him that season.  Then again, Koetter came in for the 2012 season and it was like a different offense, even though Koetter kept a lot of the playbook and terminology from Mularkey.

Ok, I remember those day in Pitt, but I didn't know(or remember) he was behind all of that. Was that prior to Big Ben, or during his earlier years? Was he behind that offense when Kordell Stewart was there?

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