Knight of God

Opposite Of A Koetter Fan - Need The Brotherhood’s Help

188 posts in this topic

KOG someone put some stats up about Koetter’s success in the run game and it was surprising and not just In Jacksonville.

It seems if he has a horse he will run him the question is do we ? No idea what to expect with Freeman.

Here is where you can get excited 

Ryan loves Koetter and should thrive immediately.

No huddle offense this is made for Ryan and it’s a thing of beauty to watch. With the weapons we have today I bet we put 30+ on teams next year.

Saved the best for last we hired Quinn for his defensive prowess and with this staff he can 100% concentrate on the defense. The defense is 100% his baby now let’s bring it.

Ryan in a no huddle and Quinn being the DC I’m excited

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Wasnt my first or second choice but #2 is behind it, and Quinn stressed wanting to be balanced on offense 2 or 3 in the interview with "the Beak".  Lets face it run game is going to be based on how well the draft and free agency goes and Freeman's health. Heres hoping they use the TE's a little like Philly did on Sunday quick short routes RAC, cause they need that balance for TOP. Because thats really the effect and what the Falcons had with Turner in his prime, balanced ,TOP advantage, which protects the defense. Think they have to adopt this, cause they are a score at will team, OL wont hold up nor will the defense.

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3 hours ago, Knight of God said:

You mean in J-Ville when they had no QB and no receivers? Since leaving....he hasn’t run the ball very much 

I dunno he made David Garrard a pro bowler in 2009. That might be worth a Nobel Prize or something.

I don't want to go back to watching Matt wait and wait in the pocket to throw the ball deep. This team thrived in 2016 when Matt got rid of the ball quickly and the receivers made things happen. What will be one of the most effective plays in the offense will be Ridley running crossing patterns out of the slot. When he actually held on to the ball he made big plays. Ridley would actually excel in New England's offense. "I hate the every one run deep and hope we have enough time to throw it" offense. If Freeman comes back healthy, and there is no indication that he won't, then he can be a huge weapon. He and MJD are very similar in their styles and skillset. Ito is as well. Fix the guards and we might see something special. 

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1 hour ago, Matt_The Iceman_Ryan said:

Here is my take:

DQ is gonna be spending more time on the defense with playcalling. I think that pushed the hand of wanting an OC with more experience than less experience, which really narrowed our focus.

 

Second, we have no idea what has been said in interviews, etc, but my hope and gut is that DQ really wants to keep a good chunk of the current offensive system, and supplement it with some of Koetter’s vertical pieces and screen game, which had none of last year.

I also think the KKM trio will have a lot better game plans and adjustments on offense than Sark...

 

With all that said, realistically, who is better that the Falcons had a chance at getting that isn’t s lateral move? I think it’s s big risk to bring on a first time playcaller at this point in MR2 and JJ11 careers...

 

Look for us to go all in in FA this year for the next 2 years....

Thanks God one of the trio's name started with an M.

KKM

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8 minutes ago, Lowndesfalc said:

Here’s a reason to get behind it. If it don’t work then there’s a decent chance of Josh McDaniels will be here following season. 

He hates Mcdaniels haha.

I like that we'll get back to using the TE's, and the no huddle aspect. Really hope we get some hosses on the OL and buff the run game though.

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1. Hooper, JJ, and Sanu should feast. 

2. Maybe Mularkey can cook up some magic plays for Sanu with Dirk. 

3. Experience. Experience. Experience. 

4. Will Mularkey help Saubert. 

5. If Mularkey is in the planning meetings with Dirk he is going to be pushing the run. 

6. Quiz in Atl under Dirk was a pass catching beast. I think Freeman is a better Quizz. We missed that element the last few years. 

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54 minutes ago, SkerFalcon8710 said:

Look at it this way KOG.. we have 3 former OC/HCs looking at opposing defenses every week instead of a college HC with no experience. We have a well versed WCO, well versed Air Coryell, And well versed power Run coach.. if we rebuild the Oline correctly whos to sayvwe cant attack a defense differently every week with different concepts? It will all hinge on the Oline.. in the end Matt Ryan will be given back control of the offense w/ the no huddle.. i think these three coaches can scheme up some great plays together with varying concepts 

Having a Frankenstein offense is not a good thing. Most offenses fail year 1 because they're trying to be part of their own scheme and part of the former scheme. If the Falcons are trying to run 3 different offensive schemes at the same time it'll be a disaster. 

Here's my thoughts after a night of reflection. Koetter is fine. He's good enough to win a SB. That being said, I don't enjoy watching his offenses, and no, he doesn't run the ball. Saying "He only runs the ball when he has a great running game" also isn't the positive a lot of you are making it out to be. Ideally, Koetter is going back to his 4-verts (because trying to switch to a WCO won't work for him) and we get a boring but productive offense that we can win with, while I get to enjoy watching the defense. That's all I've got. 

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Ill just say this...all that matters is wins. Everybody has their preference of style. And I get that. Nobody can convince OP to like Koetter. But at the end of the day, our loyalty is to the Falcons. We root for them to win. I was never a fan Vick. Hated his style of play and still do. There are plenty of QB’s I’ve never been a fan of because of their play style, approach to the game, or even part of their personality. It’s a reason why I don’t like Baker Mayfield either. I know he’s talented and he may win games with the Browns...I just don’t like him and don’t think he will bring long term success to that franchise. I just like a specific style for quarterbacks. I got plenty of hate if I spoke negatively of Vick so I chose to often stay quiet. Just like how you did in the past with you know who. I still supported Vick though and wanted him to be successful because he played for my team. I wanted him to prove me wrong, every game. Yea it was frustrating at times. But I’m still here. 

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As I've said before, I've never been as high on Koetter as most people here were after he left nor as down on him as most people here were when he was here before.  So I hope this is an even-keeled assessment of him instead of an emotional reaction.  Full disclosure:  He wasn't my first choice.  I'd have preferred just about anyone who has actually coached a WCO/ZBS offense before because I think it suits our QB better and is a better philosophy.  Having said that, I'm not worried and here is why.

1)  Koetter knows Matt Ryan, and Matt knows Koetter.  If these two want to work together, that tells me a lot about their respect for each other and comfort level.  Matt isn't going to want to work with someone who can't get us to the dance.  Koetter doesn't want to coach someone who can't make him look good.  At some point, you trust the guys on the field and on the sideline when they say "this is going to be good."  Especially when they clearly have a choice in the matter (Koetter isn't being forced on Ryan by any means).

2)  The retention of Knapp and Morris and the addition of Mularkey puts a lot of NFL HC experience on that side of the ball.  Of the 4, only Raheem Morris is really out of place (it's good to have his experience, but I still wonder why he's on that side of the ball -- since he's not here to help Sark out anymore, I'd like to see him back on defense).  And unlike their stints as head coaches and OCs, Mularkey is a truly great TE coach and Knapp is a truly great QB coach.  

Now, I realize that both of those comments tend toward the passing game, and that isn't really what gets your motor running.  So let me address the run game as well.

3)  Koetter has shown the ability and desire to have valid run/pass balance.  When he was hired as the Bucs HC, he said "we’re going to be a run-first football team.  You’ve got to run the ball and stop the run to win in this league, and we’re not going to change from that.”  Now, in his first season, 2015, he stuck with that for the most part.  55/45 run/pass (Atlanta was 60/40).  2016, it was 57/43 (Atlanta was about the same, and went to the Super Bowl).  2017 he was 62/38 (Atlanta was 56/44, and everyone wondered what had happened to our offense).  2018, 67/57 (Atlanta was 65/35).  Stats are from here (starting with 2015, but you can change years using the drop down menu):

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-play-pct?date=2016-02-08

What's interesting to me is you see a trend starting with balance and then getting away from it with both teams.  Why?  I think it's largely the same reason -- personnel.  Koetter lost Martin, or at least his ability to play well.  2015 he was 288 attempts for 1400 yards and played in all 16 games.  2016, he missed half the season and went 144 rushes for 421 yards.  2017 he 138 rushes for 406 yards in 11 games.  Last season he was in Oakland, and still only got 172 carries for 723 yards.  Losing your best rusher tends to hurt you. 

We're no different.  Healthy Freeman, and our run game is solid (and our coaches' faith in it equally solid) and we maintain balance.  Lose him, and we're playing backups and the coaches aren't as confident sticking to the run.  Compounding our issues in Atlanta, we had o-line concerns in 2017 and 2018.  I'm not sure if Koetter had those same struggles.  

My point is this -- Koetter can and will commit to the run game.  But a lot of it is personnel dependent, and how effective it is will also be personnel dependent.  In 2015, for example, the Bucs were 5th in the league in rushing yards per game with 135.  The Falcons, with Shanahan and the zone blocking scheme and a healthy Freeman, were 19th.  They were also 5th in total yards.  Falcons were also 19th.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/teamstat.html?lg=NFL&yr=2015&type=reg&cat=R&group=O&conf=&sort=rushtds

With Quinn in his ear preaching balance, and with Mularkey's influence and Knapp's familiarity with the zone blocking scheme we run, I could see us having a very, very good rushing team under Koetter, and still have the explosiveness to take the top off a defense at any time.  One thing Koetter's scheme does very well is get guys open deep in space.  Huge, chunk plays.  Often long TDs with the weapons we have.  Add a solid running game and PA to that?  Look out.

4)  This has been mentioned by most other folks here, but Quinn gets to concentrate far more energy on the defensive side of the football.  That approach worked with Shanahan in 2015/2016, and it will work with Koetter now.  Koetter doesn't have to be perfect.  He just has to be competent and use this offense's weapons without squandering them.  He is perfectly capable of doing that.  Meanwhile, this leaves Quinn free to game plan and coach up the defense, which makes that side of the ball better.  This could well be a move that improves both sides of the ball at once.

 

Now, that's my sales pitch.  If I believe all that, then why did I favor sticking to the WCO/ZBS scheme?  Simple -- I just think it works better.  To me, Koetter splits 4 wide and goes empty or single-back too much, and this tips pass.  He runs out of those same formations, but that hampers the run game's ability to thrive.  As Shanahan said, when you don't have a FB and a TE on the field, it's harder to run the ball.  I'd rather see Koetter use more 21 personnel and pass out of those formations in addition to running.  It keeps the defense off balance.  He doesn't have to run the full blown WCO philosophy, but just mix it up some where we aren't going 4 wide and shotgun and literally everyone knows it's a passing play.

Side note:  several people are saying they could "predict" the plays Koetter was calling.  As you and I both know, that's bull****.  But he was predictable solely in the sense that the other team could easily tip run or pass based on formation and how the blockers line up, and that's something Shanahan's system doesn't do.  So while I hate to use the word "predictable," I will say if you are not going to disguise run vs. pass with anything other than play action, then you'd better be REALLY good at both the run and the pass, because you're not hampering the defense at all other than just beating them at the assignment level.  A lot of coaches have that philosophy -- we're not going to trick you, we're just going to beat you.  I'm not a fan of it.  I'd rather take every advantage I can, including having the defense out there with no clue whether the next play is a run versus a pass.  It's a philosophical difference.

Also, I think the risks of 3 and out are higher with a vertical offense.  Koetter has said why take 5 yards when you can take 20.  I get that, and it works for him.  But combining the lower percentage throws with a lot of no huddle, and the next thing you know you're stressing your defense.  They just got off the field.  Now they have to go back.  I prefer a lot more clock/ball control philosophically.  Hopefully Mularkey will be a good influence in that regard.  

All said, Koetter is capable.  I'm not worried about the hire.  I disagree with some of his offensive philosophy, but there is no doubt it works.  It's won multiple Super Bowls, most notably with the Rams in the late 90s, the Cowboys in the mid-90s, and the Colts with Peyton Manning.  I'm sure there are others as well.  Koetter is also adaptable, which is unusual for someone who has been an OC and HC.  I trust him.  He will simplify the offensive terminology, which will clean up a lot of the communications issues that have plagued the team since Quinn got here (2016 being the outlier there).  The biggest thing is, we need an o-line, because Koetter isn't scheming around o-line issues.  Invest in the line, heavily, and this team will be very, very good.

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28 minutes ago, Jesus said:

I dunno he made David Garrard a pro bowler in 2009. That might be worth a Nobel Prize or something.

I don't want to go back to watching Matt wait and wait in the pocket to throw the ball deep. This team thrived in 2016 when Matt got rid of the ball quickly and the receivers made things happen. What will be one of the most effective plays in the offense will be Ridley running crossing patterns out of the slot. When he actually held on to the ball he made big plays. Ridley would actually excel in New England's offense. "I hate the every one run deep and hope we have enough time to throw it" offense. If Freeman comes back healthy, and there is no indication that he won't, then he can be a huge weapon. He and MJD are very similar in their styles and skillset. Ito is as well. Fix the guards and we might see something special. 

For what it's worth, Koetter has a lot of quick hitters in his offense.  It's not always sending 4 deep.

And "deep" is relative.  A 20 yard pass play is "deep" or "vertical," but it doesn't take that much time.  You can throw it off a 3-step drop.

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1 hour ago, SkerFalcon8710 said:

Look at it this way KOG.. we have 3 former OC/HCs looking at opposing defenses every week instead of a college HC with no experience. We have a well versed WCO, well versed Air Coryell, And well versed power Run coach.. if we rebuild the Oline correctly whos to sayvwe cant attack a defense differently every week with different concepts? It will all hinge on the Oline.. in the end Matt Ryan will be given back control of the offense w/ the no huddle.. i think these three coaches can scheme up some great plays together with varying concepts 

Nah I hate Air Coryell

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Just now, JDaveG said:

For what it's worth, Koetter has a lot of quick hitters in his offense.  It's not always sending 4 deep.

And "deep" is relative.  A 20 yard pass play is "deep" or "vertical," but it doesn't take that much time.  You can throw it off a 3-step drop.

For sure.

I just remember Matt waiting a lot the second two years in that offense. I think he is a better QB now than he was in 2012-2014. I think he can run just about any offense you throw at him. What killed this team the last two years was their lack of prep. They didn't look as ready as they should have going into games, especially games they should have won. Maybe they will be better prepared and focused with fewer mental errors.

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My biggest fear with Koetter as with Sark, if top defenses destroy their style of offenses which are pass first run second build a lead and not be able to run the ball to close out the game.

Teams like the Eagles, Pat's, Ravens, Steelers etc.,  Expose this offenses everytime.

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17 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Ill just say this...all that matters is wins. Everybody has their preference of style. And I get that. Nobody can convince OP to like Koetter. But at the end of the day, our loyalty is to the Falcons. We root for them to win. I was never a fan Vick. Hated his style of play and still do. There are plenty of QB’s I’ve never been a fan of because of their play style, approach to the game, or even part of their personality. It’s a reason why I don’t like Baker Mayfield either. I know he’s talented and he may win games with the Browns...I just don’t like him and don’t think he will bring long term success to that franchise. I just like a specific style for quarterbacks. I got plenty of hate if I spoke negatively of Vick so I chose to often stay quiet. Just like how you did in the past with you know who. I still supported Vick though and wanted him to be successful because he played for my team. I wanted him to prove me wrong, every game. Yea it was frustrating at times. But I’m still here. 

I didn’t say that I won’t root for us, I said I won’t watch it. 

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28 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

He hates Mcdaniels haha.

I like that we'll get back to using the TE's, and the no huddle aspect. Really hope we get some hosses on the OL and buff the run game though.

Yeah I don’t like him 

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1 minute ago, Knight of God said:

I didn’t say that I won’t root for us, I said I won’t watch it. 

Fair enough. I still watched. But that’s just me. If the option to watch football is there, I’m watching. Even if I don’t like the product on the field 

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6 hours ago, Knight of God said:

Man, without using stats. Not a fan of that. Help me to truly get excited about this hire. I will be honest, I do like Mularkey. Not really Knapp. 

My thing is, I’m a run game guy. It’s one of the reasons I barely discussed Bama as much. Too many times we passed when we should have run this past season and in that complete beat down last night. 

Defense and running. That’s my passion in this game. Control the clock, attack the backfield. Verts just doesn’t suit me. Not a fan at all. I don’t want to argue about 2012. I don’t care about 2012. I’m jealous of you excited folks, I want to be excited too. 

I will be honest. There are three people in football I just don’t like. I won’t explain why, but I just don’t like these three people. We’re talk pros and not Petrino. He’s low hanging fruit.

Josh McDaniels, Dirk Koetter, and Jason Garrett. It’s my team and it would be d-0ushy to not share with my brothers and some of you RL friends. So, give me some info that will make me less ambivalent for the 2019-2020 season. Thanks

I can't help you get excited.   I'm not.   I will follow this thread though because I want to be.   I did like Mularkey.   I actually thought with some time, Sark would work out.    I, like you, believe in a game of strength - strong lines - great defense, strong run game - and big plays for the kill.

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4 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Fair enough. I still watched. But that’s just me. If the option to watch football is there, I’m watching. Even if I don’t like the product on the field 

I love Star Wars, huge fan. Hated the last few movies and haven’t seen this last one and won’t. Probably won’t see Ep 9z I don’t waste my time with things I don’t enjoy. That’s not how it works for me. If my entertainment isn’t entertaining why watch?

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2 minutes ago, Tandy said:

I can't help you get excited.   I'm not.   I will follow this thread though because I want to be.   I did like Mularkey.   I actually thought with some time, Sark would work out.    I, like you, believe in a game of strength - strong lines - great defense, strong run game - and big plays for the kill.

It just looks like we’re going with stats. This type offense won’t endure.

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I liked Koetter as an OC and was disappointed when Quinn didn't retain him in 2015, even though Kyle was a pleasant surprise. 

People forget that before Koetter, whenever Malarkey's punishing rushing attack was stifled, the offense as a whole fell apart. Gonzo and Roddy helped mask a lot of deficiencies in that offense with these two turning out to clutch on third downs and the red zone.

Malarkey ended his tenure in a playoff game we have all packed behind the darkest corners of our minds, the Game vs NY where the offense couldn't move the ball and couldn't score 1 point. 

Koetter changed all that when he came in. The screens backed the Lbs up when the box got crowded. Julio even had some of his best years with Koetter and he schemed guys like  Harry "two left feet" Douglas to be open for 1000+ yards. 

He had top 10 offenses every year with exactly nothing in terms of a physical offensive line. His best RBs were Turner in his last gasping yards ...... and Steven Jackson - also at the end of his career. 

I liked how Quinn spoke during his exit interview. He knows **** is real and I doubt he's gonna let anyone do it anyway but his way. I hope he delivers and gets us nasty pieces on the trenches. Then we'll see some good football in ATL. 

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Well KOG, I think from a playcalling standpoint, we are in a better situation now. Koetter knows how to attack a defense, Mularkey knows how to attack a defense, Knapp know how to attack a defense. Hopefully the 3 can combine to make us a productive powerhouse.

I'm a huge fan of defense and running the ball too. Those 2 methods are the biggest formulas to winning and dominating imo. I honestly believe we have improved coaching wise since the last 2 seasons, but none of it works right without addressing the trenches. DQ has mentioned he's not impressed with our lines, so the word is out and its obvious what this team needs.

It's a definite step in the right direction if you ask me.

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5 minutes ago, UnrealfalcoN said:

I liked Koetter as an OC and was disappointed when Quinn didn't retain him in 2015, even though Kyle was a pleasant surprise. 

People forget that before Koetter, whenever Malarkey's punishing rushing attack was stifled, the offense as a whole fell apart. Gonzo and Roddy helped mask a lot of deficiencies in that offense with these two turning out to clutch on third downs and the red zone.

Malarkey ended his tenure in a playoff game we have all packed behind the darkest corners of our minds, the Game vs NY where the offense couldn't move the ball and couldn't score 1 point. 

Koetter changed all that when he came in. The screens backed the Lbs up when the box got crowded. Julio even had some of his best years with Koetter and he schemed guys like  Harry "two left feet" Douglas to be open for 1000+ yards. 

He had top 10 offenses every year with exactly nothing in terms of a physical offensive line. His best RBs were Turner in his last gasping yards ...... and Steven Jackson - also at the end of his career. 

I liked how Quinn spoke during his exit interview. He knows **** is real and I doubt he's gonna let anyone do it anyway but his way. I hope he delivers and gets us nasty pieces on the trenches. Then we'll see some good football in ATL. 

People forget? No no. Let me help you. I personally hate Air Coryell. Verts. Bubble screens. DK. Don’t like it, can’t watch it. 

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