Francis York Morgan

For those worried about the Koetter "hire"

98 posts in this topic

The official Falcons Twitter retweeted Kelsey Conway's article about how the Falcons have no front runner but are interested in certain coaches still in the playoffs. This page is run by social media representatives in the Falcons org who can only post legitimate news.

D-Led's scoop came just a few hours later and has not been mentioned a bit on that page. It has no reputable backing.

Keep in mind this is the same guy who reported we were signing Rex Ryan at head coach, that we had agreed to terms with Brent Grimes, that we were losing multiple high picks due to Noisegate, that we were trying to trade up for Todd Gurley, etc. The dude probably writes his articles with a crayon. He just wants to be the first on something - anything - so he makes stuff up before anyone else and hopes he's right. 

If Koetter is hired, I'll change my profile pic to a pic of D-Led. Dude is a tool. He doesn't have a clue. You'll see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see Koetter as plan B. I think Gase is still plan A. I don't think there is a single playoff team with a potential OC that wouldn't be riskier than those two. 

Although I'm not high on the Koetter hire, it makes the most sense. We lost two seasons with Matt "adjusting" to Kyle and Sark in year one. Hiring Gase may be the "upside" in my hypothetical scenario, but the potential of losing a year to adjustment would be risky. Koetter would come right in and speak Matt's language out the gate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not worried about Koetter (or anyone else at all).  I want results and don't care who is there to take the credit or blame.  I won't prejudge outcomes and I am putting it all on DQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, vel said:

I can see Koetter as plan B. I think Gase is still plan A. I don't think there is a single playoff team with a potential OC that wouldn't be riskier than those two. 

Although I'm not high on the Koetter hire, it makes the most sense. We lost two seasons with Matt "adjusting" to Kyle and Sark in year one. Hiring Gase may be the "upside" in my hypothetical scenario, but the potential of losing a year to adjustment would be risky. Koetter would come right in and speak Matt's language out the gate. 

I'm not sure Gase would be that much of a drop-off honestly, and it could be like 2012 where everyone catches fire again.  I think the biggest problem is he's being considered for HC jobs.

Gase's system is not really unlike Koetter's (it's very similar to what Peyton was running in Indy, which is basically a vertical offense using Coryell concepts), and it incorporates a lot of WCO concepts in the passing game.  I have no idea about his running concepts, but I know they seem to work well.  Gase would be a good choice.  I just don't think he'll be available.  And if Koetter thinks he's being played second fiddle, he might choose to go elsewhere and we'd miss out on both.  Which honestly, is fine by me -- I'm still one of the few that think Bevell would be a solid choice, and there are still assistants for the Chiefs, Rams and Eagles we could pilfer too.  But if the team wants something like a Gase/Koetter style passing game with outside zone concepts and some WCO plays mixed in, then those two guys are basically your top choices for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I'm not sure Gase would be that much of a drop-off honestly, and it could be like 2012 where everyone catches fire again.  I think the biggest problem is he's being considered for HC jobs.

Gase's system is not really unlike Koetter's (it's very similar to what Peyton was running in Indy, which is basically a vertical offense using Coryell concepts), and it incorporates a lot of WCO concepts in the passing game.  I have no idea about his running concepts, but I know they seem to work well.  Gase would be a good choice.  I just don't think he'll be available.  And if Koetter thinks he's being played second fiddle, he might choose to go elsewhere and we'd miss out on both.  Which honestly, is fine by me -- I'm still one of the few that think Bevell would be a solid choice, and there are still assistants for the Chiefs, Rams and Eagles we could pilfer too.  But if the team wants something like a Gase/Koetter style passing game with outside zone concepts and some WCO plays mixed in, then those two guys are basically your top choices for that.

Not drop off, but adjustment. Matt doesn't know Gase. Just like he didn't know Kyle or Sark. We can't downplay that. Koetter was the only OC he took to immediately. His system is well suited for this roster because it's diverse and multiple. Koetter has not ran anything but his four verts scheme at every stop. That would take adjusting to for him, but he's got Knapp and Matt and a proven passing attack. 

Bevell isn't good. Should have kept Sark if we're going to go with Bevell. And who on the Chiefs, Rams, or Eagles wouldn't be significantly riskier than Koetter/Gase/Bevell? That's my point. It's easy to just say we can find one, but with DQ's seat nice and warm right now, no way he's putting himself on a limb for an unknown like Zac Taylor, for example. 

11=team and Vandy like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, vel said:

Not drop off, but adjustment. Matt doesn't know Gase. Just like he didn't know Kyle or Sark. We can't downplay that. Koetter was the only OC he took to immediately. His system is well suited for this roster because it's diverse and multiple. Koetter has not ran anything but his four verts scheme at every stop. That would take adjusting to for him, but he's got Knapp and Matt and a proven passing attack. 

Bevell isn't good. Should have kept Sark if we're going to go with Bevell. And who on the Chiefs, Rams, or Eagles wouldn't be significantly riskier than Koetter/Gase/Bevell? That's my point. It's easy to just say we can find one, but with DQ's seat nice and warm right now, no way he's putting himself on a limb for an unknown like Zac Taylor, for example. 

Sark also had Matt and (this year) Knapp.  I tend to not like having a coach run a system that isn't his. I haven't seen it work.

Even with Mike Shanahan, in Denver he was running Reeves' system.  He went to San Francisco and learned that system hands on for a few years and then brought it back to Denver with him.  You can't just take someone else's playbook and read your way into running a new system.  That's my concern.

Now, if as @falcons007 suggested, we're going to basically marry Koetter's passing system to the outside zone run game, that is a recipe for success to me.  Because Matt knows Koetter's passing system, we can revert to the terminology he used (which was basically Mularkey's), and probably not miss a beat.  But if he's honestly being asked to run a WCO passing system, I guess I don't see the point.

ShadyRef and falcons007 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The idea of bringing someone who Ryan likes and has a good working relationship has a lot of weight. That will cut down on the adjustment process and Koetter has adjusted before when he came in 2012, he changed some of the terminology to keep the previous OC. I understand there are some reservations about him and the running game and what happened in 2013 and 2014 but a lot of that was outside his control especially the OL disaster. I think that Koetter HC experience will bring also another ingredient that could be helpful for the whole staff. Not of these picks are going to be a homerun on paper, but we only have a small window left of the best of Matt Ryan and Julio Jones as a combo so lets make sure they have input and are comfortable with the direction the offense is going and Koetter may be just that. 

FalconBlood23 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

Sark also had Matt and (this year) Knapp.  I tend to not like having a coach run a system that isn't his. I haven't seen it work.

Even with Mike Shanahan, in Denver he was running Reeves' system.  He went to San Francisco and learned that system hands on for a few years and then brought it back to Denver with him.  You can't just take someone else's playbook and read your way into running a new system.  That's my concern.

Now, if as @falcons007 suggested, we're going to basically marry Koetter's passing system to the outside zone run game, that is a recipe for success to me.  Because Matt knows Koetter's passing system, we can revert to the terminology he used (which was basically Mularkey's), and probably not miss a beat.  But if he's honestly being asked to run a WCO passing system, I guess I don't see the point.

I don’t want to see lot of 5-7 step drops. May be they can condense the routes in verticals to 10-12 yards. I don’t traits Dled report now though. We will see. Dirk Koetter Coreyell system and WCo are both timing based and have some similarities. But then again Koetter can adapt and modify it may work.

JDaveG likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, falcons007 said:

I don’t want to see lot of 5-7 step drops. May be they can condense the routes in verticals to 10-12 yards. I don’t traits Dled report now though. We will see.

Oh, one thing they could pick up from the WCO conceptually without having to run the actual system (terminology, philosophy, etc.) is hitting slants (which Koetter is decent at) and doing go routes off of 3-step drops (which the WCO doesn't do exclusively, but does in fact do).

I think Koetter can run a quick strike offense, and honestly, if he took another WCO philosophy and ran a vertical and horizontal stretch and only throwing the go routes when the leverage is correct, it would still be explosive as all get out.

falcon22, 11=team and falcons007 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

Sark also had Matt and (this year) Knapp.  I tend to not like having a coach run a system that isn't his. I haven't seen it work.

Even with Mike Shanahan, in Denver he was running Reeves' system.  He went to San Francisco and learned that system hands on for a few years and then brought it back to Denver with him.  You can't just take someone else's playbook and read your way into running a new system.  That's my concern.

Now, if as @falcons007 suggested, we're going to basically marry Koetter's passing system to the outside zone run game, that is a recipe for success to me.  Because Matt knows Koetter's passing system, we can revert to the terminology he used (which was basically Mularkey's), and probably not miss a beat.  But if he's honestly being asked to run a WCO passing system, I guess I don't see the point.

Welp my friend get very ready for that to happen. Because between Bevell and Koetter, you either got a guy who runs something similar at a lesser level or a guy who can bring a very dynamic addition (passing attack) to the existing scheme. 

Marrying Koetter's passing attack to the outside zone is nice in theory. But what happens to the heavy play action component, which has been Matt's bread and butter since 2015? Again, revert to the terminology he used, which isn't west coast terminology, is an adjustment for the whole offense. Keep the current terminology and now Koetter is speaking a language he doesn't know. 

I think Bevell is a subpar guy. I think Koetter is a "safe" decision because he knows Matt. I think Gase is the only one who can come in day one and speak the current language of the scheme but add what we think Koetter can, but would have to build rapport with Matt. 

It's stupid. Should have kept Sark. 

Vandy likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, vel said:

Welp my friend get very ready for that to happen. Because between Bevell and Koetter, you either got a guy who runs something similar at a lesser level or a guy who can bring a very dynamic addition (passing attack) to the existing scheme. 

Marrying Koetter's passing attack to the outside zone is nice in theory. But what happens to the heavy play action component, which has been Matt's bread and butter since 2015? Again, revert to the terminology he used, which isn't west coast terminology, is an adjustment for the whole offense. Keep the current terminology and now Koetter is speaking a language he doesn't know. 

I think Bevell is a subpar guy. I think Koetter is a "safe" decision because he knows Matt. I think Gase is the only one who can come in day one and speak the current language of the scheme but add what we think Koetter can, but would have to build rapport with Matt. 

It's stupid. Should have kept Sark. 

I don't disagree with the last line honestly.  I think what did Sark in was sub-par performance against better teams, but I also think he's fundamentally a good coach.

Having said that though, Bevell almost certainly uses typical WCO terminology, so he's a shoe-in for continuity.  And I disagree that his passing game is "at a lesser level."  Lesser than Shanahan in 2016 for sure, but the guy knows offense and he has had a great deal of success, including a Super Bowl win.  

Vandy likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I don't disagree with the last line honestly.  I think what did Sark in was sub-par performance against better teams, but I also think he's fundamentally a good coach.

Having said that though, Bevell almost certainly uses typical WCO terminology, so he's a shoe-in for continuity.  And I disagree that his passing game is "at a lesser level."  Lesser than Shanahan in 2016 for sure, but the guy knows offense and he has had a great deal of success, including a Super Bowl win.  

He's lesser than even Sark. That's my point. Replacing Sark with Bevell is stupid, considering you're not improving the position and just lost familiarity with Matt. Bevell had a mobile Russell Wilson to counter the porous OL. But he had to constantly extend plays because nobody got open. Sark didn't have that with Ryan. Once he lost his OGs and #73 regressed and lost Freeman, Sark had to adjust and find a way. Matt put up MVP numbers in that situation. Do I think Bevell can do that? No. If we hire Bevell, that means nobody else was left and they hired him solely because of his familiarity of the scheme. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, vel said:

Welp my friend get very ready for that to happen. Because between Bevell and Koetter, you either got a guy who runs something similar at a lesser level or a guy who can bring a very dynamic addition (passing attack) to the existing scheme. 

Marrying Koetter's passing attack to the outside zone is nice in theory. But what happens to the heavy play action component, which has been Matt's bread and butter since 2015? Again, revert to the terminology he used, which isn't west coast terminology, is an adjustment for the whole offense. Keep the current terminology and now Koetter is speaking a language he doesn't know. 

I think Bevell is a subpar guy. I think Koetter is a "safe" decision because he knows Matt. I think Gase is the only one who can come in day one and speak the current language of the scheme but add what we think Koetter can, but would have to build rapport with Matt. 

It's stupid. Should have kept Sark. 

Traditionally Koetters offense is also based on play action passing. Matt rayan had put up one of the best numbers of his career in PA game in 2012. I am more worried about 7 step drops which got Ryan killed in 2013 and 2014.

JDaveG likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I don't disagree with the last line honestly.  I think what did Sark in was sub-par performance against better teams, but I also think he's fundamentally a good coach.

Having said that though, Bevell almost certainly uses typical WCO terminology, so he's a shoe-in for continuity.  And I disagree that his passing game is "at a lesser level."  Lesser than Shanahan in 2016 for sure, but the guy knows offense and he has had a great deal of success, including a Super Bowl win.  

Something else to consider in terms of terminology -- the only downside I see to a WCO is precisely the terminology.  The play calls are just too **** long.  It's clunky.  The terminology Koetter used here from 2012 to 2014 was basically Mularkey's which is Ehrardt-Perkins.  It is much simpler for all players to pick up.  So instead of calling out each route (using the Coryell numbering system or the WCO habit of calling each route individually by name), you can call "Ghost" on one side and everyone knows what that means.  You end up with a play call that is more like "spread right strong 73 ghost/tosser" instead of "strong flex right nasty Y short pass 18 wanda FB bend Y heat Z ghost."  The last of those is an actual Kyle Shanahan play call, and you can see it still incorporates some E-P terminology, but it is still clunky as all get out because of the complexity of the WCO itself and the coaches' reticence to streamline concepts. Instead of "ghost" referring to a double route combination on that side, it is solely the route the Z receiver is running, which is kind of silly if you think about it.

Koetter has basically bought into the E-P terminology and runs it conceptually like a Coryell system.  It's sort of a "best of both worlds" approach.

Vandy likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Francis York Morgan said:

The official Falcons Twitter retweeted Kelsey Conway's article about how the Falcons have no front runner but are interested in certain coaches still in the playoffs. This page is run by social media representatives in the Falcons org who can only post legitimate news.

D-Led's scoop came just a few hours later and has not been mentioned a bit on that page. It has no reputable backing.

Keep in mind this is the same guy who reported we were signing Rex Ryan at head coach, that we had agreed to terms with Brent Grimes, that we were losing multiple high picks due to Noisegate, that we were trying to trade up for Todd Gurley, etc. The dude probably writes his articles with a crayon. He just wants to be the first on something - anything - so he makes stuff up before anyone else and hopes he's right. 

If Koetter is hired, I’ll change my profile pic to a pic of D-Led. Dude is a tool. He doesn't have a clue. You'll see.

Bookmarked. :ninja:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Traditionally Koetters offense is also based on play action passing. Matt rayan had put up one of the best numbers of his career in PA game in 2012. I am more worried about 7 step drops which got Ryan killed in 2013 and 2014.

Not to this degree. Play action, yes. Heavy boots and rollouts, no. I'm not usually a pessimistic person, but this just seems like forcing something to happen that I don't see happening. 

But this is also why teams are scrambling to hire OCs as HCs. Solve this issue by having a Sean Payton for 10 years vs the alternative of constantly trying to find an OC for your franchise QB. 

Vandy, JDaveG and falcons007 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, vel said:

Not to this degree. Play action, yes. Heavy boots and rollouts, no. I'm not usually a pessimistic person, but this just seems like forcing something to happen that I don't see happening. 

But this is also why teams are scrambling to hire OCs as HCs. Solve this issue by having a Sean Payton for 10 years vs the alternative of constantly trying to find an OC for your franchise QB. 

I was not a big fan of DK hire if he gets the job. I hear you but again there will be difference in PA if they implement outside zone blocking. Ryan had best TD to interceptions, highest QB rating in PA game in 2012. He had same number of TD in 2012 as in 2016. We shall see what they come up with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, vel said:

Welp my friend get very ready for that to happen. Because between Bevell and Koetter, you either got a guy who runs something similar at a lesser level or a guy who can bring a very dynamic addition (passing attack) to the existing scheme. 

Marrying Koetter's passing attack to the outside zone is nice in theory. But what happens to the heavy play action component, which has been Matt's bread and butter since 2015? Again, revert to the terminology he used, which isn't west coast terminology, is an adjustment for the whole offense. Keep the current terminology and now Koetter is speaking a language he doesn't know. 

I think Bevell is a subpar guy. I think Koetter is a "safe" decision because he knows Matt. I think Gase is the only one who can come in day one and speak the current language of the scheme but add what we think Koetter can, but would have to build rapport with Matt. 

It's stupid. Should have kept Sark. 

Yup. It was an overreaction, probably by Arthur. 

****, if it were me, I would promise half the ranch to Gase. Gase + Quinn would bring us a SB, I just know it. 

For the folks who long for Shanny, Gase is the closest thing to him out there. Maybe even better. 

putnam6 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now