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Cole World

Deadrin Senat rookie season in comparison to Grady Jarrett rookie year

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6 minutes ago, gazoo said:

The question, for most fans here,  about keeping Poe had to do with whether we could afford $9 million a year for him far more than if he was a good DT.

 

Thanks for keeping the context. Poe was here for renting. Never was gonna stay around at that price with our cap situation for base D. He isn't good enough outside of base to warrant keeping.

And Vic simply does not make enough tackles or play the run well enough to be the base DE; out of Nickel maybe but the thing is he hasn't been a game changer for us consistently. That's why his stats and grades match his tape. Now, he did improve after Irvin got here. He won't be back at $13M. Pay Irvin and McCoy a little more for both. if he doesn't take a much lower figure for 2019 with options for us to walk or him to earn more.

Again...FOR THE COST he is a decent rotational rusher in packages and situations. Poe already priced himself out of town. Let's see if Vic does or not.

Grady is the only one of those 3 that are definite cornerstone players. Poe was always a rental. Defense was still a fraud in 2017 compared to what people think of them.

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14 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

The question was, did the Falcons gave replacement on the Roster for Poe? It clearly wasn’t the case. I got crucified for not buying in to Fusco signing. Clearly DQ accepts now that they half assed their way in to season with out good replacements.

While our run defense sucked this year, it was far more other areas than it was simply the replacing of Poe with Senat.  

Senat actually did a pretty admirable job all things considered. Naturally he didn’t play like a $10 million per year verteran would, but he still played well.

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4 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

The question was, did the Falcons have replacement on the Roster for Poe? It clearly wasn’t the case. I got crucified for not buying in to Fusco signing. Clearly DQ accepts now that they half assed their way in to season with out good replacements. 

A replacement for a 1 year rental. They had a strategy...Poe was not the difference in this years defense. He wasn't part of the future here either; just stopping by and didn't put our D over the top. We got better but still didn't get off the field AND YES had run defense trouble. That's why Rubin got picked up. Poe and Jarrett weren't able to carry the rest of the team run D.

Big stretch.

And Fusco barely played before getting hurt. He was ONLY a move because Wes was such a liability in 2017.

Fusco's contract is not the same as Poe's either.

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3 minutes ago, gazoo said:

While our run defense sucked this year, it was far more other areas than it was simply the replacing of Poe with Senat.  

Senat actually did a pretty admiral job all things considered. Naturally he didn’t play like a $10 million per year verteran would, but he still played well.

And 2018 D lacked tacklers because our best were on IR. Even Poole had a rough stretch; including when he was beat by Brees in the open field. Unit wide problems without cornerstone players.

Our D wasn't nearly as good in 2017 as some seem to believe. One of those reasons is the lack of pass rush; something we let Poe leave over due to his price point AND projecting for our cap space needs this year.

Poe's cap hit for Panthers in 2018 is irrelevant because its not a one year deal. It made him a $9M+ guy next year as a result. We'd be sitting $9M less in cap space today with DT needs still; Senat wouldn't be here and we're back to square one in 2017 when Poe/Jarrett were still part of a D that was getting gashed in the run. Enter Rubin that year.

Part of the issue is Duke both years. Issue is not only did you lose Poe but you lost the aforementioned reliable tacklers to injury this season.

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3 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Thanks for keeping the context. Poe was here for renting. Never was gonna stay around at that price with our cap situation for base D. He isn't good enough outside of base to warrant keeping.

And Vic simply does not make enough tackles or play the run well enough to be the base DE; out of Nickel maybe but the thing is he hasn't been a game changer for us consistently. That's why his stats and grades match his tape. Now, he did improve after Irvin got here. He won't be back at $13M. Pay Irvin and McCoy a little more for both. if he doesn't take a much lower figure for 2019 with options for us to walk or him to earn more.

Again...FOR THE COST he is a decent rotational rusher in packages and situations. Poe already priced himself out of town. Let's see if Vic does or not.

Grady is the only one of those 3 that are definite cornerstone players. Poe was always a rental. Defense was still a fraud in 2017 compared to what people think of them.

Agree the one dimension run stuffer didn’t warrant $9 million per year in our defense.

Many forget, we also get an extra 4th rounder for Poe this year. 

Let’s see how we’ve been doing with our 4th round picks:

We got starting LB Devondre Campbell, pro bowl RB Devonte Freeman, Ito Smith last year who looks awesome, even long time  starter Levine Toilolo. 

That extra 4th rounder allows us to bring in another possible starter for a few years for chump change. We desperately need this part of the cap equation to keep the Super Bowl window open and possible.

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2 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

A replacement for a 1 year rental. They had a strategy...Poe was not the difference in this years defense. He wasn't part of the future here either; just stopping by and didn't put our D over the top. We got better but still didn't get off the field AND YES had run defense trouble. That's why Rubin got picked up. Poe and Jarrett weren't able to carry the rest of the team run D.

Big stretch.

And Fusco barely played before getting hurt. He was ONLY a move because Wes was such a liability in 2017.

Fusco's contract is not the same as Poe's either.

Fusco struggled mightily with 49ers. He isn’t a starting level guard at this point. Every one has a strategy, was it good or bad is entirely different. DQ himself admitted on failing to replace players.  Fusco barely played but he had more pressures than Garland and Beadles combined.  Regarding Poe, the replacement was sub par, if they knew he was one year rental then they should have drafted some one in 2017. 

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9 minutes ago, gazoo said:

While our run defense sucked this year, it was far more other areas than it was simply the replacing of Poe with Senat.  

Senat actually did a pretty admiral job all things considered. Naturally he didn’t play like a $10 million per year verteran would, but he still played well.

Senat played at a high level but didn’t play enough.  My point is they let go Poe with out an adequate replacement. In another head scratcher, senat was inactive because they wanted more pass rusher. Hope DQ learned from this, because next Year AB will most likely fire him after a losing season.

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3 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Fusco struggled mightily with 49ers. He isn’t a starting level guard at this point. Every one has a strategy, was it good or bad is entirely different. DQ himself admitted on failing to replace players.  Fusco barely played but he had more pressures than Garland and Beadles combined.  Regarding Poe, the replacement was sub par, if they knew he was one year rental then they should have drafted some one in 2017. 

Did you forget Hage was busted and cut literally as the season was starting?

It's not about a strategy being good or bad. That's simply hindsight. It's about what is necessary. We just gonna ignore the elephant in Wes?

Fusco had a decent year with the 49ers before coming here and it's mainly injuries that set his career back to begin with. It was a scheme fit and a move to push Wes at minimum; or we'd be stuck with Garland. Yeah, chalk Fusco's limited reps brand new to the team with garbage like Beadles and Garland.

The issue is WES didn't pan out which necessitated Fusco or a cheap vet like that. By the way, Chester was a bad pass blocker here himself. Can't discount the play of RS falling off as part of the right side decline. Thankfully Wes could hide between Mack and Matthews but even that hasn't guaranteed him a job next year. Maybe as depth and maybe we get out of some of Fusco's cap hit if his injury rehab doesn't come along.

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4 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Senat played at a high level but didn’t play enough.  My point is they let go Poe with out an adequate replacement. In another head scratcher, senat was inactive because they wanted more pass rusher. Hope DQ learned from this, because next Year AB will most likely fire him after a losing season.

I totally agree with your point we didn’t adequately replace some of the players lost or have adequate backups.  I think coaching made things look worse than they were as well. I think Shanny would have schemed around the OL problems, he really was brilliant at this. We would have still taken a hit, just not as bad.

The good news is I think this stuff can all get cleaned up this offseason. Certainly getting our players healthy we Lost is part of that.

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9 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Senat played at a high level but didn’t play enough.  My point is they let go Poe with out an adequate replacement. In another head scratcher, senat was inactive because they wanted more pass rusher. Hope DQ learned from this, because next Year AB will most likely fire him after a losing season.

Senat nursed a shoulder injury at some point this year.

Poe HAD to be let go. It wasn't an option to sign him to another 1 year deal. There was no more renting. Why are you dismissing this context?

McClain was a bust here no question, but we had far greater issues that Poe alone doesn't fix this season in our 1 gap system. Namely, pass rush (he was okay here but not a game changer in of himself) and of course the injuries behind the DL.

Poe was always a 1 year plan here. Falcons tried to replace some of the production. McClain was the biggest FA mistake we made in that sense. Doesn't explain the missed tackles and failures to play as a unit.

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22 hours ago, gazoo said:

While our run defense sucked this year, it was far more other areas than it was simply the replacing of Poe with Senat.  

Senat actually did a pretty admirable job all things considered. Naturally he didn’t play like a $10 million per year verteran would, but he still played well.

We needed to draft a Senat whether we kept Poe or not. My issue was replacing Poe with no better fit than McClain, it was obvious to me that he and a 3rd round rookie DT was not going to get the job done. And they didn’t.  

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6 hours ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Seems like a lot of TATFers are putting major trust in Senat. If I'm DQ I'm not. I'm trying to fix 1T with a solid vet free agent. There should be some out there. I saw Senat get tossed too many times this year. Hope yall are right.

Boom. 

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9 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Senat nursed a shoulder injury at some point this year.

Poe HAD to be let go. It wasn't an option to sign him to another 1 year deal. There was no more renting. Why are you dismissing this context?

McClain was a bust here no question, but we had far greater issues that Poe alone doesn't fix this season in our 1 gap system. Namely, pass rush (he was okay here but not a game changer in of himself) and of course the injuries behind the DL.

Poe was always a 1 year plan here. Falcons tried to replace some of the production. McClain was the biggest FA mistake we made in that sense. Doesn't explain the missed tackles and failures to play as a unit.

Senat was healthy scratch. DQ said they wanted more pass rushers so they benched him. That made zero sense. And the board myth about DQ giving young guys chance, why didn’t he put Steven Means earlier? Means was best Edge run defender for whole season.

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8 minutes ago, Vandy said:

We needed to draft a Senat whether we kept Poe or not. My issue was replacing Poe with a better fit than McClain, it was obvious to me that he and a 3rd round rookie DT was not going to get the job done. And they didn’t.  

Senat was a great pick up. They didn’t have a bridge this year. 

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2 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Senat was healthy scratch. DQ said they wanted more pass rushers so they benched him. That made zero sense. And the board myth about DQ giving young guys chance, why didn’t he put Steven Means earlier? Means was best Edge run defender for whole season.

Why don't you ask Quinn or MM?

Senat DID have a shoulder problem that limited his snaps in some games; I'm not even referring to the game in question he was inactive.

Speaking of board myths, our D in 2017 with Poe wasn't as good as people think. We had to get Rubin; after Hage was cut as season started, because Poe and Jarrett taking most of the DT snaps wasn't getting the run D job done.

Amazing.

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3 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Senat was a great pick up. They didn’t have a bridge this year. 

Salary cap vs UFA. MOST UFA want more than 1 year minimal deals. See: Poe.

Poe was a bridge to 2018 to begin with. Then we can just go back and couch GM what we should have done with the draft at this point. Trade up for Payne? Season still would've been lost.

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20 minutes ago, Vandy said:

We needed to draft a Senat whether we kept Poe or not. My issue was replacing Poe with a better fit than McClain, it was obvious to me that he and a 3rd round rookie DT was not going to get the job done. And they didn’t.  

Agree on McClain....he was horrible.

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23 minutes ago, Falcon Man™ said:

Boom. 

Senat just needs to learn how to keep interior lineman’s hands off him.  He’s got great hand violence but short arms. He’s got the strength, it’s just technique thing where a lineman gets leverage on him at times.

He will get far better, veteran OL in NFL typically always get the better of rookie DTs learning to play on the fly.

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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2017

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

We fell from 19th in weighted DVOA to 26th.

Had we kept the same rating for 2018 we'd have moved up to 17th.

2017: An average at best D that couldn't get off the field; allowing one of the worst plays per drive, that gets masked with PPG totals while allowing more points per drive due to shortened games. Appearances CAN be deceiving. Stats CAN lie.

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3 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Senat just needs to learn how to keep interior lineman’s hands off him.  He’s got great hand violence but short arms. He’s got the strength, it’s just technique thing. He will get far better, veteran OL in NFL typically always get the better of rookie DTs learning to play on the fly.

Quinn mentioned about how our poor OL situation caused the run D to suffer this year. When midseason hits and teams are pushing each other to start peaking we got Wes at LG, open door at RG, and Schraeder getting benched at RT.

Injuries certainly played a part. Had Levitre, Fusco, and Free been healthy all 16 we probably are playing this weekend at least. Despite the terrible D.

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2 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Quinn mentioned about how our poor OL situation caused the run D to suffer this year. When midseason hits and teams are pushing each other to start peaking we got Wes at LG, open door at RG, and Schraeder getting benched at RT.

Injuries certainly played a part. Had Levitre, Fusco, and Free been healthy all 16 we probably are playing this weekend at least. Despite the terrible D.

That’s actually a great point. I am super stoked about next season becuase I know they know what they need to do and DQ taking over the defense.

 

just a few more pieces via draft and FA and a veteran OC who can manage this wealth of talent on offense and we’ll rebound immediately 

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54 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Why don't you ask Quinn or MM?

Senat DID have a shoulder problem that limited his snaps in some games; I'm not even referring to the game in question he was inactive.

Speaking of board myths, our D in 2017 with Poe wasn't as good as people think. We had to get Rubin; after Hage was cut as season started, because Poe and Jarrett taking most of the DT snaps wasn't getting the run D job done.

Amazing.

Dude Rubin played 79 run snaps. Grady and Poe played almost 300 snaps. DQ has to bring in because Crawford got hurt and wasn’t that good. You can’t expect Grady and Poe to play 100 %. Poe had as many stops and tackles  as Crawford and McClain combined in half the run defense snaps. More importantly, the Edge rushers benefited with stout middle of the line. The production of Edge rushers this year went down as teams ran through the gut. 

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1 minute ago, falcons007 said:

Dude Rubin played 79 run snaps. Grady and Poe played almost 300 snaps. DQ has to bring in because Crawford got hurt and wasn’t that good. Poe had as many stops and tackles  as Crawford and McClain combined in half the run defense snaps. More importantly, the Edge rushers benefited with stout middle of the line. The production of Edge rushers this year went down as teams ran through the gut. 

I thought i read that the braintrust basically admitted to letting key veterans leave and hoping that new ones would step up...Poes impact was tangible

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23 minutes ago, VTCrunkler said:

I thought i read that the braintrust basically admitted to letting key veterans leave and hoping that new ones would step up...Poes impact was tangible

Yeah, I am more hopeful now that they admitted the mistake and want to get it fixed. I personally think 2019 will be a great year for Falcons if DQ and TD fix the mistakes.

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