Cole World

Deadrin Senat rookie season in comparison to Grady Jarrett rookie year

131 posts in this topic

Just now, Vandy said:

Like I said, I hear what you’re saying on the salary....

But it would have mattered....New Orleans beat us in OT at home running the ball down our throat, as did Dallas....we win those two games plus cincy we finish 10-6.

it mattered a lot.

I think you fail to appreciate who makes the tackle (key we didnt have tacklers on the field in those games)

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2 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

I don't know what McCoy's number would be but you clearly only read enough to rebuttal and not getting the big picture.

You don't even get what our 1T needs to do. We aren't a 2 gap system. McCoy can still get after the QB. Far better to spend $9M on the cap like Poe will get this next year than Poe 'not doing enough' for our run D in 2017 (we still weren't elite because our system relies on team speed tackling and not just a freed player for a 2 gap forcing double teams. Poe would've needed more consistent 1 on 1 tackles vs the run and even then it's overpriced for our scheme which values a DTs ability to rush the passer)

Again, you miss the point. Who is a better scheme fit for us for Poe's 2019 cap hit? McCoy next to Grady or Poe?

Not enough cap for either Poe or McCoy.

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1 hour ago, Ergo Proxy said:

I think you fail to appreciate who makes the tackle (key we didnt have tacklers on the field in those games)

Sure I do, we had “tackling shortcomings” last year too. But when you have gaping holes for opposing RBs to run through it highlights the tackling shortcomings.

Folks don’t realize how well Poe plugged up those holes. He didn’t have the glossy stats, but he also took on double-teams freeing Grady up as well. 

He was greatly missed, mainly because we failed to find a suitable replacement.

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Just now, Vandy said:

Not enough cap for either Poe or McCoy.

On a rental? McCoy. Poe would've been a 3 year commit and didn't do enough for us.

And yes there is cap, when you rescind Vic's $13M because McCoy would be a difference maker vs the pass (start Senat and play McCoy less snaps than TB had him on)...Beasley can leave or be back for cheap. It's about season specific roster configuration.

McCoy for part of what letting Vic go for would yield? Yes. Now imagine we were stuck with Poe right now. Wasn't enough to make our D elite last year. He wasn't good enough as a pass rusher. Run D relies on team tackling. We lacked those things this year.

Pass rush. Tackling.

Deadrin playing 1T will be more than enough with the returning members and adding a better value in the example given.

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Sure I do. But when you have gaping holes for opposing RBs to run through it highlights the tackling shortcomings.

Folks don’t realize how well Poe plugged up those holes. He didn’t have the glossy stats, but he also took on double-teams freeing Grady up as well. 

He was greatly missed, mainly because we failed to find a suitable replacement.

He impacted the run D but wasn't a game changing player. He was a poor scheme fit and a waste of the total snaps compared to Grady. We get better value elsewhere.

I think we missed Debo, Allen, Neal, and others just as much.

McClain being as bad AS WELL was part of the problem.

My point is tunneling on Poe when not recognizing our 1T purpose. We need another Jarrett that can shed blocks and play better laterally. Poe as a 2 gap function; which you just described, wasn't gonna carry the scrubs we had this year and still wasn't enough in 2017 because of his LIMITED scheme fit. Good but not worth it. Deadrin no question moving forward as long as he improves just like Grady had to.

Poe wasn't taking another 1 year rental and he won't get another big contract most likely the rest of his career. So...again we would get more value with McCoy for his cap hit than Poe's.

And if you say we can't afford Poe's then you just admitted we couldn't keep him which part of the overall point of why he wasn't sought after by us.

Edited by Ergo Proxy

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42 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Bro. You me and a few others said letting Poe walk was a mistake and got crucified. Still gettin crucified. A big 6'3" 346 pound fire hydrant with athletic skills. He was only 27 years old man. I woulda locked him up for three. We coulda found the cap space. We wasted $7.4M on McClain, Garland and Fusco. Poe's cap hit this year was $5.3M with the Panties. Jeez man. Now we're still searching for a NT and will either have to pay a similar free agent or reach for a draft pick and suffer through his orientation.

Yes, we did get crucified FF70, but we saw Poe do all the dirty grunt work in ‘17 most folks don’t see nor appreciate. 

We’re paying Matt Schaub what, $4-$5M to hold a clipboard?

Tried to tell folks too that Fusco was no better than Wes....pretty sure Ergo was in that crowd who got upset on that as well, but it was true.

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9 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

I don't know what McCoy's number would be but you clearly only read enough to rebuttal and not getting the big picture.

You don't even get what our 1T needs to do. We aren't a 2 gap system. McCoy can still get after the QB. Far better to spend $9M on the cap like Poe will get this next year than Poe 'not doing enough' for our run D in 2017 (we still weren't elite because our system relies on team speed tackling and not just a freed player for a 2 gap forcing double teams. Poe would've needed more consistent 1 on 1 tackles vs the run and even then it's overpriced for our scheme which values a DTs ability to rush the passer)

Again, you miss the point. Who is a better scheme fit for us for Poe's 2019 cap hit? McCoy next to Grady or Poe?

And you and 23,946 TATFers don't realize this scheme only worked once against the run and could be in its final season. OK go ahead and give $10M to McCoy who's a 3T. Or trade up and draft one of them 290 pound 3Ts and hope they turn into Aaron Donald without getting road graded. Quinn said he wants to stop the run. If I were his GM I'm finding him a big nasty 350 water plug to keep blockers off his backers.

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6 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Yes, we did get crucified FF70, but we saw him do all the dirty grunt work most folks don’t see nor appreciate. 

We’re paying Matt Schaub what, $4-$5M to hold a clipboard?

Tried to tell folks too that Fusco was no better than Wes....pretty sure Ergo was in that crowd too who got upset on that, but it was true.

Almost like depth and roster configuration matter.

You guys keep telling yourself Poe would've been another 1 year rental. lol

Fusco? Glad he came in. Apparently got Wes butt in gear because Wes put in work. Still got beat in preseason.

Nice dodge tho. It's almost like Fusco doesn't make what Poe does. Not a bad contract if we have to get out of; you know the purpose and context of this discussion.

All I hear is pitting players vs players and failing to see season roster configurations.

Poe isn't coming back and our D wasn't championship caliber in 2017 with him anyway. Next?

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2 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

And you and 23,946 TATFers don't realize this scheme only worked once against the run and could be in its final season. OK go ahead and give $10M to McCoy who's a 3T. Or trade up and draft one of them 290 pound 3Ts and hope they turn into Aaron Donald without getting road graded. Quinn said he wants to stop the run. If I were his GM I'm finding him a big nasty 350 water plug to keep blockers off his backers.

:lol:

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43 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Bro. You me and a few others said letting Poe walk was a mistake and got crucified. Still gettin crucified. A big 6'3" 346 pound fire hydrant with athletic skills. He was only 27 years old man. I woulda locked him up for three. We coulda found the cap space. We wasted $7.4M on McClain, Garland and Fusco. Poe's cap hit this year was $5.3M with the Panties. Jeez man. Now we're still searching for a NT and will either have to pay a similar free agent or reach for a draft pick and suffer through his orientation.

If we draft a RT in Rd 1, Clemson’s D Lawrence fits that bill later in draft. Might have to move up to late in Rd 1 for him, but he’s that run plugger we need.

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12 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Almost like depth and roster configuration matter.

You guys keep telling yourself Poe would've been another 1 year rental. lol

Fusco? Glad he came in. Apparently got Wes butt in gear because Wes put in work. Still got beat in preseason.

Nice dodge tho. It's almost like Fusco doesn't make what Poe does. Not a bad contract if we have to get out of; you know the purpose and context of this discussion.

All I hear is pitting players vs players and failing to see season roster configurations.

Poe isn't coming back and our D wasn't championship caliber in 2017 with him anyway. Next?

Nice dodge? WTF are you thinking i’m trying to dodge, bro? SMH

And yes we were championship caliber in ‘17, and came within a whisker of doing it. 

 

 

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Just now, Vandy said:

Nice dodge? WTF are you thinking i’m trying to dodge, bro? 

 

 

You guys been dodging context during this entire exchange and then changed the subject into Wes 2017 version vs Fusco signing and emo projecting.

I'm talking our scheme and why Poe wasn't a long-term fit, but keep resisting McCoy being the better option if y'all were so dead set on Poe being the savior of this D; which was still poor in 2017 btw.

And wouldn't have mattered this season either due to the issue being bigger than 1 player on this D.

Let's talk Wes vs Fusco again; who neither are even guaranteed a spot on 2019 roster...the objective of projecting Senat forward and talking roster configuration moving forward.

Poe had to go.

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11 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Yes, we did get crucified FF70, but we saw Poe do all the dirty grunt work in ‘17 most folks don’t see nor appreciate

We’re paying Matt Schaub what, $4-$5M to hold a clipboard?

Tried to tell folks too that Fusco was no better than Wes....pretty sure Ergo was in that crowd who got upset on that as well, but it was true.

Dude. You know me. I've seen pretty much every Falcon game at least three times since Beta Max and VCR started. Got a full rack back to the 70s. Still watch em. These days you can watch a decade of tape online, in coach's mode. In HD!!! That's where you can really analyze the line play. These boys aint watchin on that level. If they were they'd realize we should have locked up Poe. A mistake we have to fix, after trying to band aid it with freakin McClain and Senat. One thing's for sure Dimi and Quinn's sense of urgency should be on 100 this year so maybe they'll address that issue properly.

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

And you and 23,946 TATFers don't realize this scheme only worked once against the run and could be in its final season. OK go ahead and give $10M to McCoy who's a 3T. Or trade up and draft one of them 290 pound 3Ts and hope they turn into Aaron Donald without getting road graded. Quinn said he wants to stop the run. If I were his GM I'm finding him a big nasty 350 water plug to keep blockers off his backers.

70, we had Paul Soliai a 350 NT on our squad in 2015. We ask him to take a pay cut and he didn’t. At the time he was making around 8M a year. Paul didn’t budge and we cut him. As a result we...

https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/quinn-jarrett-moving-to-new-bigger-role-17109241

Yes, we signed Poe to a one year 9M deal but if you recall what Quinn said he said Poe playing the 3T as much as he plays the 1T. That money was justified.

Now for the NTs you want us to sign, all of them comes off the field on passing downs. Paying them anything over 3M is ridiculous when we have Senat who only sees the field in base which is only 30% of the time. 

If we are paying 5M plus I’m getting Muhammad Wilkerson (29) on a 1 yr prove it deal and let him play 5T in base and move to DT in Nickel.

Most of our issues in the run game is setting the edge. A reason I want Shelby and Reed gone.

Edited by Cole World
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Posted (edited)

Anyway, I've said my piece. I'm tired and had a long month, still trying to do too much in this thread so just seems contribution is wasted in the end.

I want a discussion about the reasons behind the decisions instead of this idea of paying Poe who was not a long-term fit for his asking price.

Not apples to apples comparing Poe to Senat; contracts matter. 1 year rental on McCoy would be a far better value for us in terms of roster needs at DT. Unless we don't believe in developing players suddenly.

McClain is the real problem to the 1T plan falling short this year, but it's the price of Poe outranging us for a team that actually uses 2gap. And if Wes had been a good player we'd never have even taken a flier on Fusco. It was a chance at improvement but became a wash when he got hurt early; despite beating out Wes to begin with.

Poe can do that dirty work in the CAR D system I guesss. We need better value and dynamics for this D out of the overall DL arsenal. Poe at $5 sure but it's the price of per season roster configuration and we weren't going to risk the $9M hit coming due. The only reason McCoy is compared to that is a 1 year rental this year is only possible if a move is made on VB. Before this year, VB had a real shot at a rebound year.

Now that didn't happen, so his $13M option or big contract isn't part of the picture moving forward.

THOSE THINGS ARE WHY POE HAD TO WALK ON TOP OF SCHEME FIT. Vic may very well be leaving now because he isn't producing. He would have a use as a rotational pass rusher only. Poe isn't the kind of pass rusher needed and you can get reasonable 1T player instead.

Duke, Richards, Kazee and others still out there whiffing on run tackles because when the play is there they aren't the same as Debo, Neal, and Allen at tackling.

Edited by Ergo Proxy

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7 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Dude. You know me. I've seen pretty much every Falcon game at least three times since Beta Max and VCR started. Got a full rack back to the 70s. Still watch em. These days you can watch a decade of tape online, in coach's mode. In HD!!! That's where you can really analyze the line play. These boys aint watchin on that level. If they were they'd realize we should have locked up Poe. A mistake we have to fix, after trying to band aid it with freakin McClain and Senat. One thing's for sure Dimi and Quinn's sense of urgency should be on 100 this year so maybe they'll address that issue properly.

I thought you didn't like Poe at the end of last season? Could've sworn you actually had posts about him robbing us. Could be confusing you, but I'd love to see your posts asking us to re-sign him. If not that's cool too

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Cole World said:

70, we had Paul Soliai a 350 NT on our squad in 2015. We ask him to take a pay cut and he didn’t. At the time he was making around 8M a year. Paul didn’t budge and we cut him. As a result we...

https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/quinn-jarrett-moving-to-new-bigger-role-17109241

Yes, we signed Poe to a one year 9M deal but if you recall what Quinn said he said Poe playing the 3T as much as he plays the 1T. That money was justified.

Now for the NTs you want us to sign, all of them comes off the field on passing downs. Paying them anything over 3M is ridiculous when we have Senat who only sees the field in base which is only 30% of the time. 

If we are paying 5M plus I’m getting Muhammad Wilkerson (29) on a 1 yr prove it deal and let him play 5T in base and move to DT in Nickel.

Most of our issues in the run game is setting the edge. A reason I want Shelby and Reed gone.

Exactly. This system is about each player doing their job. Who cares what our 1T is doing when 2 or 3 players on the field are whiffing on integrity of their own assignment?

Reed was playing literally because Shelby was hurt; strong run game defender for us actually, and Vic can't play base run D at DE. How does the NT fix teams attacking us there too? Reed made no plays. That's millions wasted. Vic is literally the FOURTH HIGHEST player projected for roster next year.

Bigger issues than 1T in base D when many other players are either injured or not performing.

and in the end, Poe was asking for a committal. His last 'pay day' as a pro likely without CAR cutting him.

The money Poe is now scheduled to make would far better be suited on guys that can make the play in our system.

I'm looking forward to Deadrin making strides next year and who we get to replace McClain. One of the weaknesses on 2018 roster indeed. Thankfully, we only had eyes for a 1 year rental knowing where the roster construction dynamics would be for where we are today.

Edited by Ergo Proxy
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6 hours ago, Atlantafan21 said:

I just wanna how a 90 and 86.7 turned into a 91. 

Quantum mechanics is involved I think. 

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DTs coming into the NFL typically can take through 3 seasons to realize their peak potential.

Grady Jarrets stats show this trend perfectly, where he doubled his tackles and quadrupled his sacks from rookie season to 3rd season.

That said, I do not believe Senat has the same ceiling as Grady had

I anticipate Senat to improve next year and again his 3rd season, but he is more likely a rotational piece rather than started material.  He can be explosive and dominant at times, but if an OL gets his hands on him he can get pushed around. His short arms aren’t helpful here, but he’ll  get better though.

And Senat played well for a rookie and actually had more tackles than Grady had his rookie year. Senat is a good player and was a solid pick that we’ve not seen the best of yet.

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7 hours ago, Jesus said:

For example:

Teams were exposing the fact that the run D line was out there. See the last game against the Saints. Brooks Reed on the field they pass, Vic, they run. It's not about exhausting guys but the Falcons would change all the pieces on the field and smart teams took advantage. 

It doesn’t matter if the run or pass. The defense is matched by personnel. If the offense sends out 3 or more wr’s we’ll be in nickel or dime. If it’s 2 wr’s and and TE its base. And brooks can rush if it’s a pass. Beasley stops the run better than ppl give him credit for. The problem in the second game was bad game planning period. Senat didn’t play and they gashed on the run. Base defense is guys that play the run well but can rush if they pass out of a run set. Nickel is guys that can rush but can stop the run if need be. Takk and Beasley are decent against the run. And it’s not like teams don’t pass out or run sets or run out of a passing look. It’s about tendencies at the end of the day like what a team likes to do on 1st down or 3rd and based on the look they give. THATS what you study in film. Percentages of plays in situations vs what set they’re in and down and distance. 

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1 hour ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Dude. You know me. I've seen pretty much every Falcon game at least three times since Beta Max and VCR started. Got a full rack back to the 70s. Still watch em. These days you can watch a decade of tape online, in coach's mode. In HD!!! That's where you can really analyze the line play. These boys aint watchin on that level. If they were they'd realize we should have locked up Poe. A mistake we have to fix, after trying to band aid it with freakin McClain and Senat. One thing's for sure Dimi and Quinn's sense of urgency should be on 100 this year so maybe they'll address that issue properly.

My thoughts exactly. 

I believe they will, my man. We’re not as far away as this board believes it is, after a 7-9 season filled with poor use of personnel and unfortunate injuries. Need a few key pieces and better coaching from top down, and we could win it all next season. 

Very excited about this upcoming offseason. 

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43 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

It doesn’t matter if the run or pass. The defense is matched by personnel. If the offense sends out 3 or more wr’s we’ll be in nickel or dime. If it’s 2 wr’s and and TE its base. And brooks can rush if it’s a pass. Beasley stops the run better than ppl give him credit for. The problem in the second game was bad game planning period. Senat didn’t play and they gashed on the run. Base defense is guys that play the run well but can rush if they pass out of a run set. Nickel is guys that can rush but can stop the run if need be. Takk and Beasley are decent against the run. And it’s not like teams don’t pass out or run sets or run out of a passing look. It’s about tendencies at the end of the day like what a team likes to do on 1st down or 3rd and based on the look they give. THATS what you study in film. Percentages of plays in situations vs what set they’re in and down and distance. 

Great post..... welcome back bro

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1 hour ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Dude. You know me. I've seen pretty much every Falcon game at least three times since Beta Max and VCR started. Got a full rack back to the 70s. Still watch em. These days you can watch a decade of tape online, in coach's mode. In HD!!! That's where you can really analyze the line play. These boys aint watchin on that level. If they were they'd realize we should have locked up Poe. A mistake we have to fix, after trying to band aid it with freakin McClain and Senat. One thing's for sure Dimi and Quinn's sense of urgency should be on 100 this year so maybe they'll address that issue properly.

I wanted a nasty line, instead we got a cheese cake. Poe was a big loss, you get crucified here if you are not a DQ cheer leader even with genuine concerns.

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5 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

I wanted a nasty line, instead we got a cheese cake. Poe was a big loss, you get crucified here if you are not a DQ cheer leader even with genuine concerns.

The question, for most fans here,  about keeping Poe had to do with whether we could afford $9 million a year for him far more than if he was a good DT.

 

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5 minutes ago, gazoo said:

The question, for most fans here,  about keeping Poe had to do with whether we could afford $9 million a year for him far more than if he was a good DT.

 

The question was, did the Falcons have replacement on the Roster for Poe? It clearly wasn’t the case. I got crucified for not buying in to Fusco signing. Clearly DQ accepts now that they half assed their way in to season with out good replacements. 

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