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PriMeTiiMe

Best QB Season for a team under .500?

114 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

Let's not confuse win and lose records with the performance of a QB. QB is only one member of a team. The game can be lost on special teams, defense, bad coaching etc. I've never like QBs having wins and loses. It's just for entertainment.

When you can take a undrafted free agent and make him a household name, repeatedly, then you look at the QB. Michael Colston and now Thomas. Those type of guys go to other teams and fall flat. Why? Different QB, different system.

Ryan has always been surrounded by great talent. Brees, Rodgers and Brady have not and yet.......... they can bring out the best in the players around them. That makes Elite.

 

Like when Ryan turned Harry Douglas into a 1000 yard receiver. 

The problem is a problem of drafting, not a problem of Ryan.  Ryan doesn't need shiny hood ornaments, he needs an offensive line and a defense.  If Ryan got the kind of protection that Brady gets, or that Brees has gotten this year, then Ryan would be lighting the world on fire.  (so would Aaron Rodgers)

Using first round picks on WR's when you have a QB like Brady, Brees, Ryan, or Rodgers is a waste of a draft pick.  Spend the draft picks on OL and defense, and you'll reap the rewards of having an elite QB.

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1 minute ago, Peyton said:

Matt Ryan will be just another HOF QB that wasn't quite as good as Drew Brees.

My point that was I trying to make, maybe not very well, was that a Lombardi would put Ryan in a different discussion. Julio needs a Lombardi less than Ryan because of his talent level.

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21 minutes ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

Ryan has always been surrounded by great talent. Brees, Rodgers and Brady have not and yet.......... they can bring out the best in the players around them. That makes Elite.

 

This is where I disagree. If you want to say his offensive talent was good sure. However football is more than just offense. Ryan's defenses his entire career have been mediocre - bad. If Ryan didn't have such bad defenses the blown NFC Champ game in 2012 or the SB51 2nd half never happens. Ryan had outstanding games in both and sadly he somehow gets blame for both.

Last year (2017) was the only time it was 'good' and sadly it was one of Ryan's worst years with the OC Swap to Sark.

Give Ryan last year's defense this year and this team is 12-4 or better. 

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15 minutes ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

My bad, but it doesn't take away from the point that those QBs make the receivers look good.

 

Matt made Harry Douglas a 1000 yd receiver. 

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One more point when comparing these, "Elite QB's," against Ryan.  What would those QB's be without their coach/system?  In this debate, I can actually provide you with info.  Look at Drew Brees in San Diego, then look at him in New Orleans with Sean Payton.  Completely different player.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm

Imagine if Matt Ryan had been paired up with an offensive minded head coach who was willing to let Ryan attack...  Let Ryan run the no huddle frequently...  (almost gone with Dan Quinn)  Not try to protect the defense by making the offense hold the ball for 10 minutes.  (Smith and Quinn)  Not be afraid to throw the ball downfield.  (Mike Smith was completely against letting him throw the ball deep)

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1 minute ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

And what was the team record that year? What's your point?

Dude you keep flip flopping. What is Rodgers record this year while "making the talent around him better"? Brees had 5 seasons of 7-9 with the Saints how come he did not "make them better" and win?

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1 minute ago, robertap said:

Let Ryan run the no huddle frequently...  (almost gone with Dan Quinn) 

So Ryan has no input? Give a guy $30 mil a year to be game manager?

 

3 minutes ago, robertap said:

Not try to protect the defense by making the offense hold the ball for 10 minutes.  (Smith and Quinn) 

You want a Chip Kelly type offense?

 

5 minutes ago, robertap said:

Not be afraid to throw the ball downfield.  (Mike Smith was completely against letting him throw the ball deep)

This is a false statement.

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26 minutes ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

My point that was I trying to make, maybe not very well, was that a Lombardi would put Ryan in a different discussion. Julio needs a Lombardi less than Ryan because of his talent level.

Julio is considered top 3 of all time already. People don’t talk about Matt that way, but Ryan is a first ballot hall of famer regardless. He will be top 10 statistically and more reliable than even guys like Favre or Big Ben. 

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4 minutes ago, PriMeTiiMe said:

Dude you keep flip flopping. What is Rodgers record this year while "making the talent around him better"? Brees had 5 seasons of 7-9 with the Saints how come he did not "make them better" and win?

I'm flip flopping but not you? He said Ryan MADE Harry Douglas a 1000 yard receiver.  Where was Roddy? Where was Julio? How many options did he have to throw to? Was Ryan calling all the plays? Stick to the discussion.... Ryan made Douglas a 1000 yard receiver.

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5 minutes ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

I'm flip flopping but not you? He said Ryan MADE Harry Douglas a 1000 yard receiver.  Where was Roddy? Where was Julio? How many options did he have to throw to? Was Ryan calling all the plays? Stick to the discussion.... Ryan made Douglas a 1000 yard receiver.

Julio was out for the year and Roddy was on a steep decline. Also, funny how you mention a play caller for Ryan and don’t acknowledge how instrumental Payton has been for Brees. 

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2 minutes ago, Falcanuck said:

Julio was out for the year and Roddy was on a steep decline. Also, funny how you mention a play caller for Ryan and don’t acknowledge how instrumental Payton has been for Brees. 

Okay it's late here.

Ryan is the best thing since slice bread. He made an unknown guy named Douglas a 1000 yard receiver and he'll do the same with Russell Gage if wants to.

Put him on the Saints and he'll make people forget about Drew Brees.

Put him on the Packers team and he'll lead that team to a Lombardi.

Happy now? :D

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1 hour ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

And what was the team record that year? What's your point?

You claim elite QBs make sub-par WRs 'good'. 

Edited by Geneaut

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5 hours ago, PriMeTiiMe said:

The design of the plays aren't the big issue. More often than not it's WHEN he calls them. 

He calls them enough right times for Ryan to put up that yardage. There is NO way around that...

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52 minutes ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

Okay it's late here.

Ryan is the best thing since slice bread. He made an unknown guy named Douglas a 1000 yard receiver and he'll do the same with Russell Gage if wants to.

Put him on the Saints and he'll make people forget about Drew Brees.

Put him on the Packers team and he'll lead that team to a Lombardi.

Happy now? :D

Lame. 

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1 hour ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

Let's not confuse win and lose records with the performance of a QB. QB is only one member of a team. The game can be lost on special teams, defense, bad coaching etc. I've never like QBs having wins and loses. It's just for entertainment.

When you can take a undrafted free agent and make him a household name, repeatedly, then you look at the QB. Michael Colston and now Thomas. Those type of guys go to other teams and fall flat. Why? Different QB, different system.

Ryan has always been surrounded by great talent. Brees, Rodgers and Brady have not and yet.......... they can bring out the best in the players around them. That makes Elite.

 

Who has had better Olines and Defenses their entire career, continuity with offensive coaches, etc? Ryan or Brady?

You do know that having the guys in the trenches is more important than the flashy skill position players? Julio Jones type players will not win you superbowls. The guys in the trenches will.

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1 hour ago, robertap said:

Like when Ryan turned Harry Douglas into a 1000 yard receiver. 

The problem is a problem of drafting, not a problem of Ryan.  Ryan doesn't need shiny hood ornaments, he needs an offensive line and a defense.  If Ryan got the kind of protection that Brady gets, or that Brees has gotten this year, then Ryan would be lighting the world on fire.  (so would Aaron Rodgers)

Using first round picks on WR's when you have a QB like Brady, Brees, Ryan, or Rodgers is a waste of a draft pick.  Spend the draft picks on OL and defense, and you'll reap the rewards of having an elite QB.

But...but... if you have Julio Jones and no time to throw you should still win!

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17 minutes ago, jay1k2 said:

Who has had better Olines and Defenses their entire career, continuity with offensive coaches, etc? Ryan or Brady?

You do know that having the guys in the trenches is more important than the flashy skill position players? Julio Jones type players will not win you superbowls. The guys in the trenches will.

This was so evidence against the Ravens game where Ryan had no time at all to throw the ball let alone going through his progression.  What good are them receivers if you don't have time for them to run their routes and get open?

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1 hour ago, FinalScore2.0 said:

I'm flip flopping but not you? He said Ryan MADE Harry Douglas a 1000 yard receiver.  Where was Roddy? Where was Julio? How many options did he have to throw to? Was Ryan calling all the plays? Stick to the discussion.... Ryan made Douglas a 1000 yard receiver.

He also threw for 4500 yards that season, without Julio.  The point being, Matt can ball out, without having first round draft picks to throw to.

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