TRUju2111

Ignoring the trenches in the draft was our downfall

133 posts in this topic

Ridley was a flashy pick, Oliver seemed like a steal. But to blatantly ignore the trenches in the first 2 rounds when that's what we needed most was and will continue to be our downfall for the next couple years.

Once again TD went for the flash and totally ignored the beef!

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Not true. Who knew Levitre was going to get hurt again? Wes filled in well for him when he went down, so worst case was Wes stepping in for Andy. Who knew Fusco was going to get hurt and be out for the season? Garland filled in well when he stepped in last year. Who knew Schraeder was going to fall off a cliff this year? Raise your hand high and show proof.So "ignoring" the OL is not a factual statement. We had a starting unit that was very good in 2017, bolstered with Fusco who just had to be average.

Let's look at the DL. We had Takk and Vic on the edges. At this point, we didn't know Vic was a bum. We thought Vic had a down year because of the move to LB and thought a move back to where he dominated in 2016 was smart. At DT you had Grady still, with Crawford and McClain to provide depth. Largely, we all assumed Takk taking a step forward with more snaps, Vic going back to full time DE and regaining his 2016 form, and Grady continuing to be Grady, we would have a solid DL. In the first two rounds, there were exactly two DTs the Falcons passed on:

Taven Bryan
PJ Hall (which would have been a massive overdraft at #26, which is the only chance we had to take him in the first two rounds). 

Yes, taking Ridley was a luxury. But overall, the team was seen as one of the most complete rosters that could do it. Deadrin Senat has outperformed both DTs we could have taken in the first two rounds. What pass rusher did they pass on that would have done anything here? There is none that anybody wanted that has done anything as a rookie that trumps what Ridley and Oliver have done. 

Since DQ has been here (2015), we have added Levitre, Mack, Poe, Vic, and Takk to the lines. That's more significant investments in the line in four years than we've seen in a while in Atlanta. His lone top ten pick was a pass rusher. When he had cap space, he added Mack and Poe. We've got another top ten pick AND cap space this offseason. Where do you think it's going to go? The trenches. But let's not act like taking Ridley and Oliver were some misuse of capital and the hindsight you have today was wide knowledge you had in March. 

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11 minutes ago, vel said:

Not true. Who knew Levitre was going to get hurt again? Wes filled in well for him when he went down, so worst case was Wes stepping in for Andy. Who knew Fusco was going to get hurt and be out for the season? Garland filled in well when he stepped in last year. Who knew Schraeder was going to fall off a cliff this year? Raise your hand high and show proof.So "ignoring" the OL is not a factual statement. We had a starting unit that was very good in 2017, bolstered with Fusco who just had to be average.

Let's look at the DL. We had Takk and Vic on the edges. At this point, we didn't know Vic was a bum. We thought Vic had a down year because of the move to LB and thought a move back to where he dominated in 2016 was smart. At DT you had Grady still, with Crawford and McClain to provide depth. Largely, we all assumed Takk taking a step forward with more snaps, Vic going back to full time DE and regaining his 2016 form, and Grady continuing to be Grady, we would have a solid DL. In the first two rounds, there were exactly two DTs the Falcons passed on:

Taven Bryan
PJ Hall (which would have been a massive overdraft at #26, which is the only chance we had to take him in the first two rounds). 

Yes, taking Ridley was a luxury. But overall, the team was seen as one of the most complete rosters that could do it. Deadrin Senat has outperformed both DTs we could have taken in the first two rounds. What pass rusher did they pass on that would have done anything here? There is none that anybody wanted that has done anything as a rookie that trumps what Ridley and Oliver have done. 

Since DQ has been here (2015), we have added Levitre, Mack, Poe, Vic, and Takk to the lines. That's more significant investments in the line in four years than we've seen in a while in Atlanta. His lone top ten pick was a pass rusher. When he had cap space, he added Mack and Poe. We've got another top ten pick AND cap space this offseason. Where do you think it's going to go? The trenches. But let's not act like taking Ridley and Oliver were some misuse of capital and the hindsight you have today was wide knowledge you had in March. 

Yes. We didn't ignore the trenches. Our plan just failed completely. You can blame the result but not the lack of intent. Hindsight is 20-20 looking back after everything goes wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, Doctor Kildare said:

Levitre is an aging player coming off a major injury. It was wishful thinking and irresponsible gambling to not make a major investment in getting overdue young talent there.

Again, Wes had been groomed to take over at LG and showed well in the playoffs at LG. 

And the funny thing is, even with all of the chaos on the OL this year, the offense still wasn't the biggest issue until recently. 

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5 minutes ago, Doctor Kildare said:

Levitre is an aging player coming off a major injury. It was wishful thinking and irresponsible gambling to not make a major investment in getting overdue young talent there.

This.

 

2 minutes ago, vel said:

Again, Wes had been groomed to take over at LG and showed well in the playoffs at LG. 

And the funny thing is, even with all of the chaos on the OL this year, the offense still wasn't the biggest issue until recently. 

 Wes showed well in the playoffs? That is no where near true

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Just now, Dr Long Shot said:

Yes. We didn't ignore the trenches. Our plan just failed completely. You can blame the result but not the lack of intent. Hindsight is 20-20 looking back after everything goes wrong. 

Thank you. This. I hate the hindsight arguments. It's baseless and not even productive. Most people here were torn between Ridley and Bryan once the pick happened. Taven Bryan has done jack shlt in Jacksonville. He's been worst than Sent, who we got two rounds later. Some talked about OG in the second, but all of the OGs worth taking were gone before our second pick came around (Corbett, Hernandez, Smith, Daniels). At that points, there isn't an OL that was drafted that has done a single thing this year to even point to as a "missed opportunity". So basically the argument is:

"Our OL and DL suck this year and the draft happened and there for sure had to have been somebody we could have taken instead of the shiny hood ornaments we took!"

But even if you did a hindsight re-draft, there isn't anybody you would replace Ridley and Oliver with unless you just massively overdraft somebody a round early. 

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Just now, Jerz #DukeSZN said:

This.

 

 Wes showed well in the playoffs? That is no where near true

Wes faced Aaron Donald and Fletcher Cox, two of the best DTs in the NFC. He was going to get abused. They abuse the best OL in the NFL. But he showed he could hang in there and fight and not be the reason the offense tanks. It's no coincidence he's not been tinkered with. 

Again, I'm not saying he's a flawless player. PFF has him as an average LG. But bringing back Levitre was fine because you at least knew his back up was one you can win with. 

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12 minutes ago, Dr Long Shot said:

Yes. We didn't ignore the trenches. Our plan just failed completely. You can blame the result but not the lack of intent. Hindsight is 20-20 looking back after everything goes wrong. 

It's not hindsight if people were calling for line help on both sides on draft day.  Many here were.  Most felt very strongly that we needed an OG, and a DT in last year's draft.

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7 minutes ago, vel said:

Wes faced Aaron Donald and Fletcher Cox, two of the best DTs in the NFC. He was going to get abused. They abuse the best OL in the NFL. But he showed he could hang in there and fight and not be the reason the offense tanks. It's no coincidence he's not been tinkered with. 

Again, I'm not saying he's a flawless player. PFF has him as an average LG. But bringing back Levitre was fine because you at least knew his back up was one you can win with. 

Yes he faced the best of the best in back to back weeks but he was getting beat almost every play. The “adjustments” they had to make severely compromised the offense after already being compromised by Wes and Garland. I do remember me looking at the bright side of Wes having faced those lines which was him gaining valuable experience which I think helped in the long run.

Still wasnt enough to feel comfortable going forward with Levitre coming off major injury and a FA signing though. But apart of that is hindsight I do admit. Schraeders decline has a lot to do with the OL playing poorly to.

I like Wes though he has spunk and comraderie and he seems eager to improve his game. I wouldnt be surprised to see him starting in this league for a few years.

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36 minutes ago, Doctor Kildare said:

Levitre is an aging player coming off a major injury. It was wishful thinking and irresponsible gambling to not make a major investment in getting overdue young talent there.

No it wasn’t. Both Wes and Garland were there as insurance policies. Nobody expected BOTH guards to go down and Shredder to suck. And rightfully so. That’s just awful luck. It WOULD be irresponsible heading into next season, though. 

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In order to win in the NFL you have to have a balanced team and you have to be able to get production out of at least one unit while investing minimal resources. One may say the Falcons should have invested in more linemen and fewer players on the perimeters, but if you're relying on the likes of Justin Hardy and Brian Poole to be your lead players, you're just going to be a bad team with a different problem. You could be the Tennessee Titans with a great offensive line and no firepower. 

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19 minutes ago, Boise Falcon Fan said:

It's not hindsight if people were calling for line help on both sides on draft day.  Many here were.  Most felt very strongly that we needed an OG, and a DT in last year's draft.

And if we had drafted an OG and DT we would be in exactly the same position we are now. Which plus starting caliber OG and DT did we pass on this draft?

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13 minutes ago, Summerhill said:

In order to win in the NFL you have to have a balanced team and you have to be able to get production out of at least one unit while investing minimal resources. One may say the Falcons should have invested in more linemen and fewer players on the perimeters, but if you're relying on the likes of Justin Hardy and Brian Poole to be your lead players, you're just going to be a bad team with a different problem. You could be the Tennessee Titans with a great offensive line and no firepower. 

I think the Falcons for a long time have gone beyond investing minimial resources and can be better described as active neglect and wishful thinking. They spend draft after draft perfecting and reperfecting their favored perimeter plositions and begrudge every investment in the trenches. They obviously have no interest in building a superior line as it would get in the way of their fast and finesse Falcon culture which is seemingly more important than winning.

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31 minutes ago, Boise Falcon Fan said:

It's not hindsight if people were calling for line help on both sides on draft day.  Many here were.  Most felt very strongly that we needed an OG, and a DT in last year's draft.

And....what OG and DT would you have taken last year? And tell me how they would have made today's team better...

19 minutes ago, Jerz #DukeSZN said:

Yes he faced the best of the best in back to back weeks but he was getting beat almost every play. The “adjustments” they had to make severely compromised the offense after already being compromised by Wes and Garland. I do remember me looking at the bright side of Wes having faced those lines which was him gaining valuable experience which I think helped in the long run.

Still wasnt enough to feel comfortable going forward with Levitre coming off major injury and a FA signing though. But apart of that is hindsight I do admit. Schraeders decline has a lot to do with the OL playing poorly to.

I like Wes though he has spunk and comraderie and he seems eager to improve his game. I wouldnt be surprised to see him starting in this league for a few years.

The thing with Andy is you cut him expecting him to not bounce back from injury and save $800k. That's nothing. We already didn't have money to sign a LG worth anything. Even if we went and signed Norwell, he's out for the year so he wouldn't have changed anything. So we were bringing Andy back regardless. Wes was always going to be playing because Andy bouncing back from a triceps tear in under a year was pushing it. But lack of capital to address it isn't ignoring it like the OP is posing the argument. That's why they added Fusco. Hope you get average OG play and your OTs and C anchor the OL for a year. That isn't a bad bet, considering Jake has been balling, Mack has been solid when not having scrubs next two him, and Schraeder was solid. 

Overall, saying "ignored" is tough when you can't really give viable alternatives to what they did. They were stuck in a tough position and had to cross their fingers with Andy being healthy. Fusco isn't injury prone and nobody expected Schraeder falling off. 

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1 hour ago, vel said:

Not true. Who knew Levitre was going to get hurt again? Wes filled in well for him when he went down, so worst case was Wes stepping in for Andy. Who knew Fusco was going to get hurt and be out for the season? Garland filled in well when he stepped in last year. Who knew Schraeder was going to fall off a cliff this year? Raise your hand high and show proof.So "ignoring" the OL is not a factual statement. We had a starting unit that was very good in 2017, bolstered with Fusco who just had to be average.

Let's look at the DL. We had Takk and Vic on the edges. At this point, we didn't know Vic was a bum. We thought Vic had a down year because of the move to LB and thought a move back to where he dominated in 2016 was smart. At DT you had Grady still, with Crawford and McClain to provide depth. Largely, we all assumed Takk taking a step forward with more snaps, Vic going back to full time DE and regaining his 2016 form, and Grady continuing to be Grady, we would have a solid DL. In the first two rounds, there were exactly two DTs the Falcons passed on:

Taven Bryan
PJ Hall (which would have been a massive overdraft at #26, which is the only chance we had to take him in the first two rounds). 

Yes, taking Ridley was a luxury. But overall, the team was seen as one of the most complete rosters that could do it. Deadrin Senat has outperformed both DTs we could have taken in the first two rounds. What pass rusher did they pass on that would have done anything here? There is none that anybody wanted that has done anything as a rookie that trumps what Ridley and Oliver have done. 

Since DQ has been here (2015), we have added Levitre, Mack, Poe, Vic, and Takk to the lines. That's more significant investments in the line in four years than we've seen in a while in Atlanta. His lone top ten pick was a pass rusher. When he had cap space, he added Mack and Poe. We've got another top ten pick AND cap space this offseason. Where do you think it's going to go? The trenches. But let's not act like taking Ridley and Oliver were some misuse of capital and the hindsight you have today was wide knowledge you had in March. 

Accurate. But no one wants to hear it, either.

I blame coaching still. Development has been subpar. And I wonder if Schraeder is playing injured...was arguably our best OL besides Mack the last two years. Young tackles don't just start to suck out of nowhere.

PS: can't send you messages. Working on an interesting draft model. If you'd like to offer input, message me.

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38 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

Accurate. But no one wants to hear it, either.

I blame coaching still. Development has been subpar. And I wonder if Schraeder is playing injured...was arguably our best OL besides Mack the last two years. Young tackles don't just start to suck out of nowhere.

PS: can't send you messages. Working on an interesting draft model. If you'd like to offer input, message me.

OL development has been terrible around the league. Hard to blame coaching. They tried to plan for it by letting Schweitzer and Harlow develop behind the starters. Even Gono has been added. Just look at the drafts since Jake was drafted. How many viable LTs do you find. Just last year, all of the viable OGs went in the first 50 picks. That's nothing!

And Schraeder isn't young. He's 30. This is about the time Clabo fell off a cliff and was cut (31). I think he's out of gas unfortunately. Steep declines happen all the time. It just bit him before anybody expected it. 

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3 hours ago, vel said:

Not true. Who knew Levitre was going to get hurt again? Wes filled in well for him when he went down, so worst case was Wes stepping in for Andy. Who knew Fusco was going to get hurt and be out for the season? Garland filled in well when he stepped in last year. Who knew Schraeder was going to fall off a cliff this year? Raise your hand high and show proof.So "ignoring" the OL is not a factual statement. We had a starting unit that was very good in 2017, bolstered with Fusco who just had to be average.

Let's look at the DL. We had Takk and Vic on the edges. At this point, we didn't know Vic was a bum. We thought Vic had a down year because of the move to LB and thought a move back to where he dominated in 2016 was smart. At DT you had Grady still, with Crawford and McClain to provide depth. Largely, we all assumed Takk taking a step forward with more snaps, Vic going back to full time DE and regaining his 2016 form, and Grady continuing to be Grady, we would have a solid DL. In the first two rounds, there were exactly two DTs the Falcons passed on:

Taven Bryan
PJ Hall (which would have been a massive overdraft at #26, which is the only chance we had to take him in the first two rounds). 

Yes, taking Ridley was a luxury. But overall, the team was seen as one of the most complete rosters that could do it. Deadrin Senat has outperformed both DTs we could have taken in the first two rounds. What pass rusher did they pass on that would have done anything here? There is none that anybody wanted that has done anything as a rookie that trumps what Ridley and Oliver have done. 

Since DQ has been here (2015), we have added Levitre, Mack, Poe, Vic, and Takk to the lines. That's more significant investments in the line in four years than we've seen in a while in Atlanta. His lone top ten pick was a pass rusher. When he had cap space, he added Mack and Poe. We've got another top ten pick AND cap space this offseason. Where do you think it's going to go? The trenches. But let's not act like taking Ridley and Oliver were some misuse of capital and the hindsight you have today was wide knowledge you had in March. 

They let Dontari Poe, Adrian Claiborne, & Courtney Upshaw walk last season.

They replaced them with a 3rd round DT.

What kind of insane production did the realistically expect from Vic, Takk, & Grady?  Crawford was a pleasant surprise but it still wasn’t ever going to be enough.

Teams that have tons more talent on the dline than the Falcons still build on that. 

The Falcons thought they could get by slumping on the DL and it bit them in the ***.

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3 hours ago, vel said:

Taven Bryan

I was thinking about him the other day.  How is he doing.  I totally forgot about him when i was watching Pitt/Jax game

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Its not popular but what Vel stated is true. TD tried and thought he had a great plan. Did he have too much confidence in that plan? Oh yeah. But who could have foresaw all the injuries? Too much belief by DQ would bring Vic back to an All Star.  Most people on this Board think you just draft an O lineman in the 1st or 2nd round and he is going to be ready to be a stud NFL O lineman and ready to face NFL Defensive lines. That is not true in most cases. Hopefully we learned our lesson. We have to add some size on both sides of the ball to go with the speed. We have to find money to go FA for both sides of the ball. Then have a great draft. Look at the Staff. We can turn this around next year. It will be up to TD and DQ to be open to change.

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