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Trae’s shot chart...lol               

Trae Young’s magical bag of passing tricks The Atlanta Hawks’ rookie is already one of the NBA’s best passers. Here are all the ways he slices up defenses. By Nekias Duncan  on March 27

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Man... F this MF’n clown.  What a BS article.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28822418/the-problems-trae-young-signature-plays

Yeah let’s ignore the fact that Collins was suspended for 25 games and then every other supporting cast starter is a freaking rookie or 2nd year player.  On top of that our vet contracts were either all injured, or the one guy healthy is 101 years old and bricks 80% of his shots now.

This team missed a ton of “gel” time with Collins out, the rookies were still thrown into the fire with 25-30 mins a game of 20% shooting, Len and Jones sucked, and Huerter and Trae were pressing as if only they could score or it was hopeless.

Start an evaluation of this team beginning in February and it’s an entire different examination and set of conclusions, with well above league average offensive efficiency, and only just below league average defensive efficiency.

Seriously, there’s 6 guys under the age of 23, and all of them have started and average around 30 mins a game or more.  Actually, there’s 5 that are 21-22, and 1 that’s 23.

And this jackwagon is laying droves of ignorant contentious criticism on Trae and the team as a whole.

I hate it when clowns like this who clearly don’t watch our games just look at the stat lines and see Sports Center clips and decide they know WTF is really going on and can armchair GM with such certainty.

Screw em. Just wait until all the pieces come together and gel. Going to make their constant Luka fellatio to Trae hate ratio look stupid.

 

Man this burned me up.

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2 hours ago, Beef said:

Man... F this MF’n clown.  What a BS article.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28822418/the-problems-trae-young-signature-plays

Yeah let’s ignore the fact that Collins was suspended for 25 games and then every other supporting cast starter is a freaking rookie or 2nd year player.  On top of that our vet contracts were either all injured, or the one guy healthy is 101 years old and bricks 80% of his shots now.

This team missed a ton of “gel” time with Collins out, the rookies were still thrown into the fire with 25-30 mins a game of 20% shooting, Len and Jones sucked, and Huerter and Trae were pressing as if only they could score or it was hopeless.

Start an evaluation of this team beginning in February and it’s an entire different examination and set of conclusions, with well above league average offensive efficiency, and only just below league average defensive efficiency.

Seriously, there’s 6 guys under the age of 23, and all of them have started and average around 30 mins a game or more.  Actually, there’s 5 that are 21-22, and 1 that’s 23.

And this jackwagon is laying droves of ignorant contentious criticism on Trae and the team as a whole.

I hate it when clowns like this who clearly don’t watch our games just look at the stat lines and see Sports Center clips and decide they know WTF is really going on and can armchair GM with such certainty.

Screw em. Just wait until all the pieces come together and gel. Going to make their constant Luka fellatio to Trae hate ratio look stupid.

 

Man this burned me up.

This dude seems to write a lot of BS about Trae.  I saw some other stuff on his Twitter feed.  Dude is obviously a hater!!

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4 hours ago, Beef said:

Man... F this MF’n clown.  What a BS article.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28822418/the-problems-trae-young-signature-plays

Yeah let’s ignore the fact that Collins was suspended for 25 games and then every other supporting cast starter is a freaking rookie or 2nd year player.  On top of that our vet contracts were either all injured, or the one guy healthy is 101 years old and bricks 80% of his shots now.

This team missed a ton of “gel” time with Collins out, the rookies were still thrown into the fire with 25-30 mins a game of 20% shooting, Len and Jones sucked, and Huerter and Trae were pressing as if only they could score or it was hopeless.

Start an evaluation of this team beginning in February and it’s an entire different examination and set of conclusions, with well above league average offensive efficiency, and only just below league average defensive efficiency.

Seriously, there’s 6 guys under the age of 23, and all of them have started and average around 30 mins a game or more.  Actually, there’s 5 that are 21-22, and 1 that’s 23.

And this jackwagon is laying droves of ignorant contentious criticism on Trae and the team as a whole.

I hate it when clowns like this who clearly don’t watch our games just look at the stat lines and see Sports Center clips and decide they know WTF is really going on and can armchair GM with such certainty.

Screw em. Just wait until all the pieces come together and gel. Going to make their constant Luka fellatio to Trae hate ratio look stupid.

 

Man this burned me up.

Honestly I thought it was a fair assessment, and to be fair, the author did acknowledge that our roster is one of the least experienced in the league. This is one of those cases where the numbers pretty much do line up with the reality. We're average on offense with Trae on the floor, and horrendous at defense. Somehow the opposite happens with Trae off the floor--the offense gets terribad, but the defense improves a lot.

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That's encouraging, especially considering Young leads the NBA in turnovers and his supporting cast is among the least experienced in the league.

If you know the offense is gonna struggle, you gotta play defense. At the very least, give yourself a fighting chance by making your opponent earn every bucket they get. That has to be both an individual and team effort, and frankly, it's still a glaring weakness in Trae's game. There were a couple games in which Trae didn't play where the defense looked MILES better, and that's not an exaggeration. We might not have scored as many points, but who really cares as long as you're winning?

I love Trae. He's a dynamic playmaker, But we're not going to win often if we're constantly trying to just out shoot our opponents, plain and simple. So if he's one of the de facto leaders of the team, he also has to set the tone on defense. I don't just mean making the occasional highlight block, but consistently not letting ballhandlers blow by him with little to no resistance.

I get the chemistry thing, but defense doesn't require a whole lot of it. Most of it is just want to. Players got to take it upon themselves to do it, and do it well, every possession. Take Cam Reddish for example. He's a shining example of not just skill, but want to. Age has nothing to do with it. This kid's a rookie and he plays better defense than most guys on the team, if not all of them. Brandon Goodwin is smaller than Trae, but plays better defense. Dennis Shroder is smaller than Trae, but plays better defense.

I know there's a lot of Trae hate going on. But if you think about it, how ridiculous is it that we have a guy averaging darn near 30/10 on the season and another averaging 20/10 and we're headed for the lottery, again?

Trae talks about winning as being the ultimate goal rather than setting a bunch of individual records. That's cool, but he better start playing better defense. Same goes for the whole team.

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16 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

Honestly I thought it was a fair assessment

No, it wasn't.  It was dripping in backdoor snide insults.  ie. "For as talented as Trae is, this team really sucks because of him.  It's great to watch those 30+ footers, but the team isn't any better for it.  It's great he can score so much, but his defense makes this team awful.  It's great he can facilitate and get so many assists, but his turnovers make the team awful.  His nutmeg's are fun, but the league doesn't need that stuff, he's just a showboat.  I know he's surrounded by inexperience, but this team is bad because of Trae Young and all these other things...."

What a load of absolute crap.  These weren't the exact words, but this is certainly what he meant and was doing.

 

And EVERYONE lets guys blow by them occasionally.  Trae doesn't just stand there all the time and let it happen.  That's a ridiculous exaggeration and not true.

Trae is 10th in the league in VOR and 12th in PER.  He's 10th in OWS with 5.2, and 0.5 in DWS (defensive win share - which isn't even in the bottom 3rd), which puts him tied at 275 with 28 other players, out of 512 total players.

You can't just leave that on the bench and be better.  That's asinine and absurd.  We weren't ever better with Trae on the bench.  We never won because he wasn't playing.

 

You know who is within 0.2 or worse DWS than Trae?

Cam Reddish at 0.7 DWS.  Which ties him at 226th in the league.

Plus all these guys, who are 25-30+ minute per game players.  Most of them are starters or 6th men on their respective teams.

Blake Griffin, Zion Williamson, Aron Baynes, Terrance Ferguson, Taj Gibson, Jeff Green, Cam Johnson, Damion Lee, Thon Maker, Cody Martin, Frank Ntilikina, Omari Spellman, Kenrick Williams, Ryan Arcidiacono, Jalen Brunson, Ky Bowman, Langston Galloway, Damian Lillard, CJ McCollum, Malik Monk, JJ Redick, Eric Pashall, Patty Mills, Bradley Beal, Cedi Osman, Ish Smith, Tony Snell, Rui Hachimura, Collin Sexton, Anfernee Simmons, Matthew Dellavedova, Darius Garland, Isaiah Thomas, Marco Bellineli, Gary Trent, Luke Kennard, Byrn Forbes, Damyean Dotson, Reggie Bullock, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Lonnie Walker, Jordan Poole, Thomas Bryant, Izaac Bonga, Davis Bertans, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, E'Twaun Moore, Justin Jackson, Eric Gordon.

 

There's 150 starters in this league, and I just named about 40 of them with nearly the same or worse defensive win share as Trae.

You know who's missing off that list?

DeAndre Bembry at 0.7, Jabari Parker at 0.7, Damian Jones at 0.6, Alex Len at 0.6, Kevin Huerter at 0.6, De'Andre Hunter at 0.5, Jeff Teague at 0.6, Vince Carter at 0.5, Bruno Fernando at 0.4, Brandon Goodwin at 0.2, Dewayne Dedmon at 0.2, and Evan Turner at 0.1.

And you know who's leading this team in DWS?  John Collins with a 1.0.

Just to give you some perspective, Giannis leads the league in DWS with 4.7.

So our best defender is John Collins, who's tied for 176th in the league in defense.

 

THAT is our problem.  It isn't freaking Trae Young's defense, who is actually tied for 8th on the team with Hunter.  It is the fact that we don't play defense as a team.  NOBODY does.

And if you've ever actually played competitive team basketball before, you'd know that defense is an exponential thing.  When 1-2 players excel on defense, but 3-4 don't, they drag the 1-2 down.  But when you get over the hump, and 3 play good defense, they lift the other 2 up.

We need to get to that point and all of a sudden we'll look like superstar defenders everywhere, including Trae.  But we don't have that.  We have 7-9 guys who get significant minutes, and every freaking one of them is average or below.

Capela + the growth of Collins + the growth of Cam + the growth of Hunter, could easily break that threshold and fix this problem.  Collins could look like a defensive monster this time next year.  And Trae's "lack of defense" is going to be an afterthought non-factor.

 

And just to give you some more perspective, Steph Curry came into the league a 1.6 DWS, and fell to a 0.4 in year 3.  Then rose to a 4.1 by year 6.

Giannis came in at 1.1, was 2.9 in year 3, and rose to a 5.5 by year 6.

So guess what... players can and do get better at defense all the time.

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1 hour ago, Beef said:

No, it wasn't.  It was dripping in backdoor snide insults.  ie. "For as talented as Trae is, this team really sucks because of him.  It's great to watch those 30+ footers, but the team isn't any better for it.  It's great he can score so much, but his defense makes this team awful.  It's great he can facilitate and get so many assists, but his turnovers make the team awful.  His nutmeg's are fun, but the league doesn't need that stuff, he's just a showboat.  I know he's surrounded by inexperience, but this team is bad because of Trae Young and all these other things...."

What a load of absolute crap.  These weren't the exact words, but this is certainly what he meant and was doing.

 

And EVERYONE lets guys blow by them occasionally.  Trae doesn't just stand there all the time and let it happen.  That's a ridiculous exaggeration and not true.

Trae is 10th in the league in VOR and 12th in PER.  He's 10th in OWS with 5.2, and 0.5 in DWS (defensive win share - which isn't even in the bottom 3rd), which puts him tied at 275 with 28 other players, out of 512 total players.

You can't just leave that on the bench and be better.  That's asinine and absurd.  We weren't ever better with Trae on the bench.  We never won because he wasn't playing.

 

You know who is within 0.2 or worse DWS than Trae?

Cam Reddish at 0.7 DWS.  Which ties him at 226th in the league.

Plus all these guys, who are 25-30+ minute per game players.  Most of them are starters or 6th men on their respective teams.

Blake Griffin, Zion Williamson, Aron Baynes, Terrance Ferguson, Taj Gibson, Jeff Green, Cam Johnson, Damion Lee, Thon Maker, Cody Martin, Frank Ntilikina, Omari Spellman, Kenrick Williams, Ryan Arcidiacono, Jalen Brunson, Ky Bowman, Langston Galloway, Damian Lillard, CJ McCollum, Malik Monk, JJ Redick, Eric Pashall, Patty Mills, Bradley Beal, Cedi Osman, Ish Smith, Tony Snell, Rui Hachimura, Collin Sexton, Anfernee Simmons, Matthew Dellavedova, Darius Garland, Isaiah Thomas, Marco Bellineli, Gary Trent, Luke Kennard, Byrn Forbes, Damyean Dotson, Reggie Bullock, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Lonnie Walker, Jordan Poole, Thomas Bryant, Izaac Bonga, Davis Bertans, Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, E'Twaun Moore, Justin Jackson, Eric Gordon.

 

There's 150 starters in this league, and I just named about 40 of them with nearly the same or worse defensive win share as Trae.

You know who's missing off that list?

DeAndre Bembry at 0.7, Jabari Parker at 0.7, Damian Jones at 0.6, Alex Len at 0.6, Kevin Huerter at 0.6, De'Andre Hunter at 0.5, Jeff Teague at 0.6, Vince Carter at 0.5, Bruno Fernando at 0.4, Brandon Goodwin at 0.2, Dewayne Dedmon at 0.2, and Evan Turner at 0.1.

And you know who's leading this team in DWS?  John Collins with a 1.0.

Just to give you some perspective, Giannis leads the league in DWS with 4.7.

So our best defender is John Collins, who's tied for 176th in the league in defense.

 

THAT is our problem.  It isn't freaking Trae Young's defense, who is actually tied for 8th on the team with Hunter.  It is the fact that we don't play defense as a team.  NOBODY does.

And if you've ever actually played competitive team basketball before, you'd know that defense is an exponential thing.  When 1-2 players excel on defense, but 3-4 don't, they drag the 1-2 down.  But when you get over the hump, and 3 play good defense, they lift the other 2 up.

We need to get to that point and all of a sudden we'll look like superstar defenders everywhere, including Trae.  But we don't have that.  We have 7-9 guys who get significant minutes, and every freaking one of them is average or below.

Capela + the growth of Collins + the growth of Cam + the growth of Hunter, could easily break that threshold and fix this problem.  Collins could look like a defensive monster this time next year.  And Trae's "lack of defense" is going to be an afterthought non-factor.

 

And just to give you some more perspective, Steph Curry came into the league a 1.6 DWS, and fell to a 0.4 in year 3.  Then rose to a 4.1 by year 6.

Giannis came in at 1.1, was 2.9 in year 3, and rose to a 5.5 by year 6.

So guess what... players can and do get better at defense all the time.

If you thought that there was an agenda at work in that article, well, that's your prerogative. I personally don't see it, which is saying something considering the source, and I've already publicly stated that I don't care for ESPN. You're clearly upset by something or another. I'm trying to look at this objectively.

Trae Young's defense IS a problem, and apparently your excuse is that is because the team as a whole sucks at defense. Are you seriously trying to convince me that Trae's defense looking bad is somehow the result of someone else not doing their job?

Quote

"And if you've ever actually played competitive team basketball before, you'd know that defense is an exponential thing.  When 1-2 players excel on defense, but 3-4 don't, they drag the 1-2 down.  But when you get over the hump, and 3 play good defense, they lift the other 2 up."

Like really, what's the point of telling me that?

 

1 hour ago, Beef said:

We weren't ever better with Trae on the bench.  We never won because he wasn't playing.

We were better on defense. That is a verifiable fact. We HAVE won (surprisingly so) when he wasn't playing--two times actually. Brandon Goodwin was a revelation in both those games. There's only THREE games this season that we've held a team under 100 points. We WON ALL THREE. Trae DIDN'T play in TWO of them. The only one he played in was against Golden State.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/1/22/21077670/atlanta-hawks-los-angeles-clippers-recap-video-brandon-goodwin-final-score-highlights-john-collins

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/12/31/21044130/brandon-goodwin-atlanta-hawks-losing-streak-orlando-magic-recap-video-analysis-breakdown-alex-len

I bet you're next going to accuse me of thinking Brandon Goodwin is better than Trae. That's not the point, but let me save you the effort anyway. Goodwin is better than Trae, at defense.

1 hour ago, Beef said:

So guess what... players can and do get better at defense all the time.

Who said Trae, or anyone else for that matter, can't?

 

As I said before, ESPN as a whole seems to have an (largely irrational) agenda against Trae. I personally didn't see it in this article. You can try to put a positive spin on how this season has gone, but quite frankly there's a very limited number of positive things to say about a team that's currently 19-43. The reality is this team is bad at a lot of things, namely defense and turnovers, and Trae is a part of the problem, whether you like it or not. That to me I thought was the point of the article.

Again, Trae has to be better defensively, and he has to limit the turnovers. Obviously the team does as a whole, but he's the face of the franchise and he's usually the first line of defense. He has to set the tone. I'm not saying Trae has to be an all world defender, but at least good enough to make it harder on teams to get into sets and score.

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3 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

We were better on defense. That is a verifiable fact. We HAVE won (surprisingly so) when he wasn't playing--two times actually. Brandon Goodwin was a revelation in both those games. There's only THREE games this season that we've held a team under 100 points. We WON ALL THREE. Trae DIDN'T play in TWO of them. The only one he played in was against Golden State.

What a crock.

We had 52 rebounds (3rd most we've had all season) to 40 rebounds in the Orlando game and 63 freaking rebounds (by far the most all season) to 45 rebounds in the Clippers game.

PLUS, we only caused 9 turnovers vs. Orlando, and 14 vs. the Clippers, and our average on the season is 17.

Not to mention 8 steals and 4 blocks in the Orlando game, and 8 steals and 3 blocks in the Clippers game, which is right at, or just below, our average on the season for both.

So in what world does grossly out-rebounding the other team have to do with Trae not being there?

And in what world is causing below our average turnovers considered better defense?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, Orlando shooting only 41% from the field and 58% from free throw, and Clippers 42% from the field and 64% from free throw, while being massively out-rebounded and having fewer possessions is why neither team scored 100.

But yeah, Trae wasn't there.  Had to be him.

SMH

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48 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

Trae Young's defense IS a problem, and apparently your excuse is that is because the team as a whole sucks at defense. Are you seriously trying to convince me that Trae's defense looking bad is somehow the result of someone else not doing their job?

Again, Trae has the SAME defensive win share as De'Andre Hunter, and only 0.1 less than Huerter and Teague, and only 0.2 less than Reddish.  And as good or better than like 40 other starters in the league.

The guy has blocked 2 shots in the past week, for Christ sake.  One was on a guy who's 7'1. And he's averaging a steal a game.

No, he is not good on defense.  But he is not THE problem.  It is BS to lay more on him for defensive woes than all the other guys.  And it's just ridiculous to even infer that the team played better defense simply because Goodwin was in his place.  A guy with a Box Plus/Minus of -2.7, and a DBPM of -1.3.

Just crazytalk.

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1 hour ago, Beef said:

And in what world is causing below our average turnovers considered better defense?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, Orlando shooting only 41% from the field and 58% from free throw, and Clippers 42% from the field and 64% from free throw, while being massively out-rebounded and having fewer possessions is why neither team scored 100.

But yeah, Trae wasn't there.  Had to be him.

SMH

In what world is causing how ever many turnovers the Hawks do on average while giving up something like 116 points per 100 possessions considered better defense?

The Clippers shot 39, 39, free throws and made 25 of them. To shoot that many and still be held under 100 means even if they are getting all the foul calls, they're pretty much otherwise getting stifled. The Magic made 14/24 free throws and had 89 FG attempts. Fewer possessions my ars.

You said the Hawks don't win when Trae doesn't play, and I showed you they did, twice, and they did it with defense. Now, if you can explain why the team looked better defensively with Trae out despite all those other metrics you posted, go right ahead. Maybe it's a mindset. Maybe they felt like without Trae's 30 PPG and 9 APG, they were gonna have to step up on defense to give themselves a chance to win.

Whatever the reasons are doesn't change what I've been saying, and I'm not gonna say it again.

The team's defense has to get better. The team has to stop turning the ball over as much as it does. Even if Trae isn't THE problem on defense, he is one of the weakest links, and he's played in over 100 games now. He's a leader on the team. The reason an article gets written about him, for better or for worse, is because he's the face of the franchise. He's got to help set the tone, which he seems to be doing more of lately, and that's a good sign.

 

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9 hours ago, Mr.11 said:

The Clippers shot 39, 39, free throws and made 25 of them. To shoot that many and still be held under 100 means even if they are getting all the foul calls, they're pretty much otherwise getting stifled. The Magic made 14/24 free throws and had 89 FG attempts. Fewer possessions my ars.

Correlation is not causation.

Number of foul shots doesn't mean a freaking thing with whatever silly point you're trying to make.

Just 2 days earlier, on Jan. 20th, when Trae played, we committed 34 PF's and sent Toronto to the line for 43 shots, and they made 33 of them.  On top of that, they shot 92 field goal attempts to the Hawks 83. Toronto also shot 31% from 3pt and made 13 of 42 attempts.  The Raptors scored 122 points.

The Clippers, 2 days later, shot 78 field goal attempts with 39 free throws.  But the rebounding was 63 Hawks to only 45 Clippers.  And the Hawks made 102 field goal attempts.  The Clippers also only made 4 of 21 3pt attempts, a whopping 19%.

78 and 92 (opponent fga’s) vs. 102 and 83 (Hawks fga’s).  Plus bad shooting to not bad shooting.

The team with the most possessions and better shooting won each time.  Go figure.

We had much more possessions against the Clippers (+24), and much fewer possessions against Toronto (-9).

And how does that disparity in possessions happen?  Those things called rebounds, turnovers, and non-shooting fouls, (and the rare jump ball and technical).

And since turnovers were LOW compared to our average, the bulk of the difference had to come from rebounds.  Which Trae doesn't have a freaking thing to do with.

Goodman had a whole 3 of 63 rebounds, so it wasn't him.  And, by the way, Lou Williams still scored 18 points on Brandon while only shooting 31% (0/7 from 3pt).

And I could do a similar breakdown of the Orlando game yet again too.

 

So again, the Clippers scoring less than 100 had ZERO to do with Trae not being there.

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17 hours ago, Beef said:

Correlation is not causation.

Number of foul shots doesn't mean a freaking thing with whatever silly point you're trying to make.

Just 2 days earlier, on Jan. 20th, when Trae played, we committed 34 PF's and sent Toronto to the line for 43 shots, and they made 33 of them.  On top of that, they shot 92 field goal attempts to the Hawks 83. Toronto also shot 31% from 3pt and made 13 of 42 attempts.  The Raptors scored 122 points.

The Clippers, 2 days later, shot 78 field goal attempts with 39 free throws.  But the rebounding was 63 Hawks to only 45 Clippers.  And the Hawks made 102 field goal attempts.  The Clippers also only made 4 of 21 3pt attempts, a whopping 19%.

78 and 92 (opponent fga’s) vs. 102 and 83 (Hawks fga’s).  Plus bad shooting to not bad shooting.

The team with the most possessions and better shooting won each time.  Go figure.

We had much more possessions against the Clippers (+24), and much fewer possessions against Toronto (-9).

And how does that disparity in possessions happen?  Those things called rebounds, turnovers, and non-shooting fouls, (and the rare jump ball and technical).

And since turnovers were LOW compared to our average, the bulk of the difference had to come from rebounds.  Which Trae doesn't have a freaking thing to do with.

Goodman had a whole 3 of 63 rebounds, so it wasn't him.  And, by the way, Lou Williams still scored 18 points on Brandon while only shooting 31% (0/7 from 3pt).

And I could do a similar breakdown of the Orlando game yet again too.

 

So again, the Clippers scoring less than 100 had ZERO to do with Trae not being there.

Hawks shot 81 FG and 17 FT. Magic shot 89 FG and 24 FT. Looks like the Magic had more possessions.

Against the Clippers, the Hawks shot 102 FG to the Clippers 78, and 23 FT to the Clippers 39. The Hawks shot 35.3% overall to the Clippers 42.3%.

17 hours ago, Beef said:

The team with the most possessions and better shooting won each time.  Go figure.

Apparently not.

17 hours ago, Beef said:

And since turnovers were LOW compared to our average, the bulk of the difference had to come from rebounds.  Which Trae doesn't have a freaking thing to do with.

And you know this how? Because Brandon Goodwin hardly grabbed any? Come on man.

17 hours ago, Beef said:

And, by the way, Lou Williams still scored 18 points on Brandon while only shooting 31% (0/7 from 3pt).

While shooting only 31%, and no buckets from 3. Sounds like good defense to me.

Not to mention, the turnover disparity in those two games was pretty ridiculous, too. The Hawks turned the ball over 35 times in those games to the combined 23 between the Magic and Clippers. So they had to play solid defense to win.

17 hours ago, Beef said:

Number of foul shots doesn't mean a freaking thing with whatever silly point you're trying to make.

And what point are you trying to make? That Trae has nothing to do with the fact that the Hawks won both games and played great defense in the games he sat out? Ya don't say. Who was it that said that the Hawks have never won when Trae was out?

Or are you trying to somehow prove that the author of the article you posted is full of **** because he called out that Trae's defense does, in fact, suck? Is that the main reason why the team is losing? No, but it is a significant one, especially when taking into consideration the kind of shots Trae likes to take and how often he turns the ball over.

You still haven't answered my question. All those metrics you posted only tell people what happened in those two games. They don't explain why it happened, and twice. But sure, do your breakdowns until fingers get sore. Without context, they don't mean all that much.

 

Anyway, I'm done arguing. You're putting words in people's mouths and making up stuff to try and prove whatever it is you're trying to prove, and I'm not gonna keep going down that rabbit hole. We're both saying the defense of the team, including Trae, needs to improve and can improve, but you wanna keep arguing. Like I said, I'm done.

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18 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

Hawks shot 81 FG and 17 FT. Magic shot 89 FG and 24 FT. Looks like the Magic had more possessions.

Against the Clippers, the Hawks shot 102 FG to the Clippers 78, and 23 FT to the Clippers 39. The Hawks shot 35.3% overall to the Clippers 42.3%

LOL, this is so stupid.

Why the he!! are you adding FG attempts and free throw attempts to try and come up with number of possessions???

The vast majority of fouls come on what?

FG attempts.  DUH

Not to mention there's an obvious disparity in number of foul shots between fouls on 2pt and 3pt attempts, as well as 1-and-1's where the FG was made.

This has turned into a futile wasted argument at this point.  You don't even understand how to calculate possessions and yet you're telling us I'm wrong about something.

Stop wasting my time.  You're wrong.  Deal with it.  Or don't.  I don't care at this point.

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27 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

And what point are you trying to make? That Trae has nothing to do with the fact that the Hawks won both games and played great defense in the games he sat out? Ya don't say. Who was it that said that the Hawks have never won when Trae was out?

And more proof you're off the rails.

I didn't say they never won WHEN Trae was out, I said they never lost/won BECAUSE Trae was out.

So GTFO, bro.  On top of not even understanding how to calculate possessions, you can't even be honest.

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32 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

You still haven't answered my question. All those metrics you posted only tell people what happened in those two games. They don't explain why it happened, and twice. But sure, do your breakdowns until fingers get sore. Without context, they don't mean all that much.

I did too.  FREAKING REBOUNDS AND CRAP SHOOTING PERCENTAGE BY ORLANDO AND LAC.

Two things Trae has NOTHING to do with.

Okay, done.  This is stupid.

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18 minutes ago, Beef said:

And more proof you're off the rails.

I didn't say they never won WHEN Trae was out, I said they never lost/won BECAUSE Trae was out.

So GTFO, bro.  On top of not even understanding how to calculate possessions, you can't even be honest.

Possessions = FGA + (0.44 x FTA) + TO – OReb

Hawks vs Magic.

Hawks: 81 + (0.44 x 17) + 9 - 11 = 86.48 ~86

Magic: 89 +  (0.44 x 24) + 20 - 11 = 108.56 ~109

Hawks vs Clippers

Clippers: 78 + (0.44 x 39) + 15 - 23 = 87.16 ~87

Hawks: 102 + (0.44 x 23) + 14 - 8 = 118.12 ~118

Here you go smart***. Still count more possessions for the Magic and better shooting for the Clippers, which again, makes your point moot.

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16 hours ago, Mr.11 said:

Possessions = FGA + (0.44 x FTA) + TO – OReb

Hawks vs Magic.

Hawks: 81 + (0.44 x 17) + 9 - 11 = 86.48 ~86

Magic: 89 +  (0.44 x 24) + 20 - 11 = 108.56 ~109

Hawks vs Clippers

Clippers: 78 + (0.44 x 39) + 15 - 23 = 87.16 ~87

Hawks: 102 + (0.44 x 23) + 14 - 8 = 118.12 ~118

Here you go smart***. Still count more possessions for the Magic and better shooting for the Clippers, which again, makes your point moot.

This is incorrect.

Think for a minute, man.  There's 48 minutes in a game, and 2880 seconds.  Divide that by 24 (shot clock).  That's 120, 24 second shot clocks if every possession went the distance.

You just listed a game with 195 possessions and 205 possessions.  That's an average of 15 seconds a possession (2880/195), and 14 seconds a possession (2880/205).

That's RIDICULOUS.  They were not averaging 15 and 14 seconds between every shot for 48 minutes.  Teams do not, and cannot possibly, keep up that pace.

 

You're welcome to plug the numbers into this actual basketball possession calculator:  https://captaincalculator.com/sports/basketball/team-possessions-calculator/

Hawks: 72.78 possessions

Magic: 63.01 possessions

136 total, or a pace of 21 average seconds per possession.

and

Hawks: 77.48 possessions

Clippers: 68.07 possessions

145 total, or a pace of 20 average seconds per possession.

 

That said, the (0.44 x FT's) is an arbitrary load of crap.  The "44%" number is pulled out of thin air.  Way more than 56% of FT's come from a FGA, and way less than 44% come from an off-ball foul in bonus time or technical.  Not to mention, many FT's are 1's as the result of a made FGA.  There is no freaking way there is only 56% of possession overlap.  It's easily... EASILY, 90%+.  Free Throws should be left completely out of the equation and you'd have 1000% more accurate number.

Anyway, as I said, Hawks had nearly double digit +possessions in both games.  AND, the obvious deciding factor was rebounds.  We were +12 and +18.  Which AGAIN, means Trae being there or not being there made no difference in why the Magic and Clippers scored under 100.

 

And for the last time, the official scoring for Trae, which is the same metrics used to gauge defensive prowess of every other player, says that Trae is a 0.6 defensive win share, and Goodwin is a 0.2 defensive win share.

This system may be flawed, but it's still identically relative criteria from player to player either way, so the comparisons are obviously relative.  And the metrics used to decide where players compare to each other on defense says Trae is a 0.6, which means he's not THE problem, or even the biggest problem defensively on the team.

These are hard coded facts.  Not conjecture based on 2 games with fabricated attempted correlation pulled out of someone's ***.  But actual quantifiable facts.

So yeah, whatever.  Done.

Edited by Beef
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@Mr.11  You are correct about Young being a MAJOR problem for the Hawks on defense.

You are building a young team around a guy who dominates the ball and don't play defense.  The WORST defender in the league.   I don't agree much with Skip Bayless but I agree with him about Young.  He said that Young's points are EMPTY, that he doesn't raise the level of play of those around him.  The Hawks have TALENT but the guy running the ship doesn't run a fundamentally sound offense and zero defense.  Reddish, Hunter, etc play defense but its negated by Young.  Young also is a turnover machine.  What you have is a team that scores in bunches with Young, but gives it RIGHT BACK with Young.  You combine that with the rules changes the NBA put in to increase scoring and thats how you have a horrible Hawks team.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28822418/the-problems-trae-young-signature-plays

" Building a playoff team around Young is both an alluring and confounding architectural challenge. On one hand, you have to surround him with off-ball offensive threats that open the floor. Then you also need a fleet of defensive talent to compensate for his tremendous limitations.

 The Hawks' defense is their biggest problem, and Young is a major component of that issue.

Looking at the data, the best two offenses in the NBA are the Dallas Mavericks and whichever team is playing against Young and the Hawks. Doncic and the Mavs lead the NBA by scoring 116.1 points per 100 possessions. When Young is on the court, Hawks opponents are also pouring in 116.1 per 100. Oof.

And just as Atlanta's offensive on/off numbers reveal how important Young is on that end of the floor, the team's defensive numbers have an opposite plotline. With Young on the bench, the Hawks' defensive rating is 106.8, which would rank just below the Clippers for sixth best in the NBA.

But while those deep-space triples may be his signature play, it's unclear if they are actually helping the Hawks win games. Here's where it gets interesting: When Young misses a 3-point shot, opponents should start licking their chops. Other teams turn Young's missed 3s into points at freakishly high rates.

Young misses 64% of his 3s, and opponents grab defensive boards on about 75% of those misses. On the ensuing possessions, as those defenses turn into offenses, they rack up a wild 127 points per 100 possessions, according to Second Spectrum tracking data. Folks, the league average offensive efficiency following a missed 3 is 112.

In other words, the Hawks play historically bad defense after their best player misses his signature shot. Here's a prime example from a January game against the Raptors. Young has just missed a deep 3, only to turn around and quickly get burnt on a baseline cut on the other end.

So what exactly is going on here?

The Hawks struggle with every phase of the game, but their defensive awakening has to start with Young. Individual defense remains a difficult skill to quantify, but members of two separate teams told ESPN that their in-house models have pegged Young as one of the worst defenders in the league. Other publicly facing metrics like defensive real plus-minus concur, with Young ranking 493rd out of 495 players.

Part of this is effort. Defense requires equal parts athleticism, smarts and effort, and Young isn't bringing all three of those to the table right now. At this point it's fair to question whether he can ever play satisfactory defense in the NBA.

Young is 6-1 and 180 pounds -- one of the slightest rotation players in the league -- and it's that primitive limitation that hurts him the most on defense. He has no room for error, yet his effort doesn't reflect that reality. When he misses one of those go-to deep 3s, too often he takes it easy on the other end. Other times he's forced to act as the last line of defense because he's the last man back, and there's nothing he can do given his size. That's an issue.

He's arguably one of the worst pick-and-roll defenders in the NBA. That's not good news for a front office charged with building a playoff team around him. He's not long enough to contest shots or clog up passing lanes. He's not bulky enough to rebound. He lacks the body to contain larger NBA guards.

But there are plenty of small NBA guards who still manage to play better defense than Young. Just look at the Oklahoma City Thunder, whose three main guards are all relatively small. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Paul (6-foot-1) and Dennis Schroder (6-1) all weigh 180 pounds or less, and when that trio is on the floor, OKC outscores opponents by 29.6 points per 100 possessions. "

Critics who have a grasp of how the game is played are pin point on what the Hawks problem is.  Folks in Atlanta will not want to hear it but it is what it is.  Pierce and the Hawks coaching staff is aware of the problem but what can they do?  This is Young's team and if they ruffle his feathers, they are gone...

 

Edited by Spts1
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