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How would a new contract for Julio affect paying for other players next year?

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19 hours ago, Yo_Lover said:

You can't act like Foles is your typical backup.

Sure I can. I suppose he's on the better side of the "backup QB" continuum but he's still just a backup-level player. 

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19 hours ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Foles was 15-9 in his first three years in PHI as a starter with a Pro Bowl under his belt. He also has a ring and a 113.2 playoff passer rating. He definitely aint a Trent Dilfer.

If he is, how TF did PHI win a championship with him and a TE as the leading receiver with 824 yards and 8 TDs last year? Splain dat bro.

Watch. The games. 

 

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20 hours ago, Peyton said:

Well apparently there was a mistake and pro football reference splits and Julio does have one touchdown in the last 4 minutes. About the examples of him making plays in the late moments of games aren't as copious as you think they'd be for a guy who's supposed to be the best of all time.

lol who said Julio Jones was "the best of all time" 

Man, theres so much strawmanning going on with this Julio thing. 

Just stand on the notion that you're disappointed/upset with his current position relative to his contract. It doesnt need to be anything other than that. It certainly doesnt need to be "how can I create tiny sample data in a way to attack an elite player"

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6 hours ago, Vandy said:

Some great ideas. I especially like the Teco moving into an Eric Metcalf-type role.

But Imagine us doing more of that with Julio commanding double-teams?

Tevin Coleman doesnt have anywhere near the lateral quickness/agility to be used in an Eric Metcalf role. Good player with a lot of talent and useful skills. But he's way too north-south to be the sort of "swiss army knife" weapon Metcalf was. 

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16 hours ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Give Ridley half of Julio's ten targets. That's probably 50-60 yards a game and 3-4 TDs right there. Hand three more targets to Free and Teco. They need to be worked into the passing game more anyway. Use Teco as an Eric Metcalf type RB/WR. There's 20 yards and a couple TDs. The other two targets can be split between Sanu, Hoop, Hardy and Hall on an alternating game basis to keep defenses honest. Together I think they could match or eclipse Julio's 6 TDs and get close to his 1500 yards. I honestly believe we'd be harder to defend. Everybody comes in trying to stop Julio. We could hit em five ways like this. Our best offensive season was in 2016 when we spread the ball to 15 different receivers, 8 with 20+ receptions and an NFL setting record 13 with a TD. Defenses couldn't handle it.

Somehow, the bold is true but Julio is a TD disappointment and not productive enough. And also somehow all those pieces without Julio on the field is likely to be more effective than all those pieces with Julio. 

Embarrassing. 

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14 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Watch. The games. 

Comparing Foles and Dilfer is just wrong.  As good as you are with statistics and what they mean, I am a bit surprised you would go with that.

Foles had to score on his last 5 possessions in the Super Bowl to win.  C'mon man, Dilfer isn't doing that in any game in his career.  Certainly not the Super Bowl.

edit - nevermind, I see it wasn't you who used Dilfer in the equation.  Foles is better than you are giving him credit for though.

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16 hours ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Honestly believe this. Probably be harder to defend and maybe a better team if the defense and STs rise.

Julio is a valuable asset, no question about it. But with our quantity and quality of offensive weapons, he's not indispensable.

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13 hours ago, kiwifalcon said:

Yes we do but how many of those guys command double and triple coverage that allows the other talent to succeed.We only got one guy like that.Julio Jones is the Falcons version of LBJ or Kevin Durant you take the mentioned out of those teams they'd struggle to win to just like we would.

Julio is not the equivalent to Lebron or Durant. He is the best in the game, but the analogy doesn't work because basketball and football are different sports. In basketball, 3 star players can carry a handful of role players to a championship. In football, 3 star players don't gurantee anything. It's much more of a complete team dependent sport.

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1 hour ago, Peyton said:

Comparing Foles and Dilfer is just wrong.  As good as you are with statistics and what they mean, I am a bit surprised you would go with that.

Foles had to score on his last 5 possessions in the Super Bowl to win.  C'mon man, Dilfer isn't doing that in any game in his career.  Certainly not the Super Bowl.

edit - nevermind, I see it wasn't you who used Dilfer in the equation.  Foles is better than you are giving him credit for though.

He's fine. Def better than Dilfer. But thats because Dilfer was genuinely bad. Foles is a "good backup." If he's your fulltime starter, you're likely going to be in trouble. 

He definitely deserves credit for playing well against the Pats (which, TBF, was one of the worst defenses in the league) and even more so for playing well against the Vikings. Although the Vikings game will always be one of the biggest headscratcher performances I've ever seen, thats not his problem. But a good performance here or there doesnt erase the bulk of the record. 

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The problem is that if we give in with three years left of his contract then every player will know that they can do the same. 

We will have to stick to how we work. No extentions before one year left with our key guys.

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1 minute ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

He's fine. Def better than Dilfer. But thats because Dilfer was genuinely bad. Foles is a "good backup." If he's your fulltime starter, you're likely going to be in trouble. 

He definitely deserves credit for playing well against the Pats (which, TBF, was one of the worst defenses in the league) and even more so for playing well against the Vikings. Although the Vikings game will always be one of the biggest headscratcher performances I've ever seen, thats not his problem. But a good performance here or there doesnt erase the bulk of the record. 

Foles just got hot right at the right time. It happens sometimes, see Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick in 2012.

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1 minute ago, Vandy said:

Foles just got hot right at the right time. It happens sometimes, see Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick in 2012.

I dont even know if it was a "got hot" thing so much as a "perfect situation" thing. And lucky for him, it yielded a ring! Thats awesome!

But it clearly isnt sustainable or a reliable process for securing a ring. Just as "the SB winner's leading WR was a TE w 850 yards" doesnt become the model just because it worked for one team who won on the back of their defense more than anything. 

The folks who value vacuum results over effective process are the folks who get worked in casinos. 

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1 hour ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Tevin Coleman doesnt have anywhere near the lateral quickness/agility to be used in an Eric Metcalf role. Good player with a lot of talent and useful skills. But he's way too north-south to be the sort of "swiss army knife" weapon Metcalf was. 

But he does have that same track speed metcalf had. We wouldn't be asking him to be a kick/punt returner, but instead spread him out in the slot in the passing game. 

I've kinda come off from that since we drafted Ridley to upgrade Gabriel, but still would like to see Sark utilize our RBs more in passing game. 

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11 minutes ago, FalconOdense said:

The problem is that if we give in with three years left of his contract then every player will know that they can do the same. 

We will have to stick to how we work. No extentions before one year left with our key guys.

I dont think this is necessarily true. We have a bevy of young talented players but none of them have the cachet of Julio Jones. Theres a certain power derived from his status as one of the true elites in the game. That doesnt necessarily mean we should be throwing our typical process out the window for him. But I dont think working with him here tells other players on the team that this strategy will work. 

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Just now, Vandy said:

But he does have that same track speed metcalf had. We wouldn't be asking him to be a kick/punt returner, but instead spread him out in the slot in the passing game. 

I've kinda come off from that since we drafted Ridley to upgrade Gabriel, but still would like to see Sark utilize our RBs more in passing game. 

I most definitely want the backs more involved in the passing game, and in more a featured role rather than a "dump off" opportunity.

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2 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

I dont even know if it was a "got hot" thing so much as a "perfect situation" thing. And lucky for him, it yielded a ring! Thats awesome!

But it clearly isnt sustainable or a reliable process for securing a ring. Just as "the SB winner's leading WR was a TE w 850 yards" doesnt become the model just because it worked for one team who won on the back of their defense more than anything. 

The folks who value vacuum results over effective process are the folks who get worked in casinos. 

I definitely believe it was a "got hot" thing. Still amazes me Philly won a ring with all the injuries they sustained. Might be something to that momentum "thingy".....:)

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Just now, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

I most definitely want the backs more involved in the passing game, and in more a featured role rather than a "dump off" opportunity.

Gonna be an interesting year with all these weapons but just one football. 

Just gotta stay healthy. 

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1 hour ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

lol who said Julio Jones was "the best of all time" 

Man, theres so much strawmanning going on with this Julio thing. 

Just stand on the notion that you're disappointed/upset with his current position relative to his contract. It doesnt need to be anything other than that. It certainly doesnt need to be "how can I create tiny sample data in a way to attack an elite player"

Yeah, why can't people stand on being put off by Julio's negotiation tactics...which I don't blame anyone for that..... instead of downplaying his play (lack of touchdowns for example) and importance to team? Just makes them look silly.....

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55 minutes ago, maxatlanta said:

Julio is not the equivalent to Lebron or Durant. He is the best in the game, but the analogy doesn't work because basketball and football are different sports. In basketball, 3 star players can carry a handful of role players to a championship. In football, 3 star players don't gurantee anything. It's much more of a complete team dependent sport.

I'm not comparing the sport I'm comparing the effect taking someone that key out of a line up.Its very clear if you took Julio out of this offense the team would be hugely affected there's no debating that much like if you took Durant or LBJ out off there teams you get the same above mentioned.

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28 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Foles just got hot right at the right time. It happens sometimes, see Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick in 2012.

But Foles is also a guy with a 27 TD and 2 INT season on his record.  I don't think the book is written on Nick Foles.  There are a hellluva lot of great QBs in NFL history who didn't have the numbers that Foles has after 39 starts, even if you include his bad stretches.

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42 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Yeah, why can't people stand on being put off by Julio's negotiation tactics...which I don't blame anyone for that..... instead of downplaying his play (lack of touchdowns for example) and importance to team? Just makes them look silly.....

1

Is this the same Vandy I was having a conversation with in a different thread?

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52 minutes ago, Peyton said:

But Foles is also a guy with a 27 TD and 2 INT season on his record.  I don't think the book is written on Nick Foles.  There are a hellluva lot of great QBs in NFL history who didn't have the numbers that Foles has after 39 starts, even if you include his bad stretches.

He did have that one great year in 2013, so I definitely agreed with your take with Larry that 's not fair comparing him to Dilfer in 2000. But though all the ebs and flows in his career he's a meh QB overall......even last year, until he got hot in playoffs he was a < 80 QB rating. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

He did have that one great year in 2013, so I definitely agreed with your take with Larry that 's not fair comparing him to Dilfer in 2000. But though all the ebs and flows in his career he's a meh QB overall......even last year, until he got hot in playoffs he was a < 80 QB rating. 

 

Sure I get that, but I think people were a little harsh on that because he was playing in some brutal conditions.

He had a great game in his first game with 4 TDs and zero INTs.

In the Oakland game it was under 30 degrees with a 15 mile an hour wind.  Carr only threw for 140 yards.

Against the Cowboys it was 19 degrees with a 17 MPH wind. He only played 3 series and the game was a 6-0 game.

Think people judged a little to harshly on those.  Obviously he got the last laugh in the end last year.

 

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2 hours ago, kiwifalcon said:

I'm not comparing the sport I'm comparing the effect taking someone that key out of a line up.Its very clear if you took Julio out of this offense the team would be hugely affected there's no debating that much like if you took Durant or LBJ out off there teams you get the same above mentioned.

If you think taking Julio off the Falcons is like taking LeBron off the Cavs then we'll just disagree. Julio doesn't play special teams. Julio doesn't play defense. On offense Julio is one of 11 guys, and he is only in on 75% of the snaps.  It's not comparable to basketball, or the individual importance of star basketball players to their teams. Cavs would be nothing without LeBron, we would still be a good team without Julio.

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4 minutes ago, maxatlanta said:

If you think taking Julio off the Falcons is like taking LeBron off the Cavs then we'll just disagree. Julio doesn't play special teams. Julio doesn't play defense. On offense Julio is one of 11 guys, and he is only in on 75% of the snaps.  It's not comparable to basketball, or the individual importance of star basketball players to their teams. Cavs would be nothing without LeBron, we would still be a good team without Julio.

I hear your point, and agree conceptually especially on LeBron. One could argue a healthy Warriors team would be a championship team even without Durant. 

But bigger point is I don't want to be a good team, I want us to have a great team. Won't be great without Julio. 

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