since68andcounting

Gesecki

154 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, since68andcounting said:

C'mon man. There were a lot of people on this board who said Donald wasn't worth #6. "Maybe if he falls to our 2nd" was a common reply.

 Of course I knew we desperately needed a LT, but really wanted to find a way to get Donald. It turns out we got a consistent, solid left tackle, when we could've had a perennial pro-bowl DT.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are not entitled to your own personal facts.

Your first sentence above was true - in JANUARY........in January before that draft, everyone wanted Aaron Donald in the early 2nd round.  By the time the Senior Bowl ended (where Donald blew it up), when NFL combine ended (when Donald blew it up) and when tape study was done - the range where Aaron Donald could go started w/ the Falcons at #7 and went into the mid teens.   While I won't claim that a majority of Falcon fans wanted Aaron Donald at #7 - a good portion did - maybe as high as 35-40%.   I wasn't one of them - but they were out there.  @Psychic Gibbon  was banging the drum for Aaron Donald very early on - and when all were hoping 3 months before the draft for Aaron Donald in 2nd round, he always maintained that he was a 1st rounder.

Aaron Donald went #13 overall to the Rams - he was not a secret - not by a long, long, long stretch - and, in the same manner, if Gesicki is deemed "the real deal" by NFL GMs, Scouts and HCs - he will go in 1st round as well - Gesicki is well known and not overlooked.

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8 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

Do you understand the 3-4 defense?

Image result for alabama defensive alignment

I post that and your response is about my knowledge of football 101?  Get out of here.  The dude can't handle double teams, and hasn't shown the ability to produce in college, and will have his *** handed to him in the NFL.  I don't want him in a Falcons jersey.

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9 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are not entitled to your own personal facts.

Your first sentence above was true - in JANUARY........in January before that draft, everyone wanted Aaron Donald in the early 2nd round.  By the time the Senior Bowl ended (where Donald blew it up), when NFL combine ended (when Donald blew it up) and when tape study was done - the range where Aaron Donald could go started w/ the Falcons at #7 and went into the mid teens.   While I won't claim that a majority of Falcon fans wanted Aaron Donald at #7 - a good portion did - maybe as high as 35-40%.   I wasn't one of them - but they were out there.  @Psychic Gibbon  was banging the drum for Aaron Donald very early on - and when all were hoping 3 months before the draft for Aaron Donald in 2nd round, he always maintained that he was a 1st rounder.

Aaron Donald went #13 overall to the Rams - he was not a secret - not by a long, long, long stretch.

It was not a secret, no. He was a late riser. I know he went at #13 but I thought we drafted #6. Regardless, as defensive ROY, double digit sacks as a DT, and multi year pro bowls, he wouldn't have been over-drafted even at #1 overall.

That's what I'm trying to say about Gisecki. I can be wrong. Everyone can be. And you can come point it out to me in two years if I am. But my gut tells me that Gisecki is highly undervalued even at #26, when most big boards I see have him around #50. I think he will prove to be worth a top 10-15 pick.

 

Edited by since68andcounting
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1 minute ago, since68andcounting said:

It was not a secret, no. He was a late riser. I know he went at #13 but I thought we drafted #6. Regardless, as defensive ROY, double digit sacks as a DT, and multi year pro bowls, he wouldn't have been over-drafted even at #1 overall.

That's what I'm trying to say about Gisecki. I can be wrong. Everyone can be. And you can come point it out to me in two years if I am. But my gut tells me that Gisecki is highly undervalued even at #26, when most big boards I see have him around #50. I think he will prove to be worth a top 10-15 pick.

 

The only difference to those big boards and yours is the ones making those boards get paid to do it. A good majority of the analysts only look at combine numbers and highlights.

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5 minutes ago, Hingle McCringleberry said:

The only difference to those big boards and yours is the ones making those boards get paid to do it. A good majority of the analysts only look at combine numbers and highlights.

Well, we'll see I guess. He could get snapped up in the teens and the whole debate is irrelevant.

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Just now, AlabamaFalconFan said:

I post that and your response is about my knowledge of football 101?  Get out of here.  The dude can't handle double teams, and hasn't shown the ability to produce in college, and will have his *** handed to him in the NFL.  I don't want him in a Falcons jersey.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2018/profiles/da'ron-payne?id=2560068

Debilitating initial punch jars offensive linemen off their gameplan. Two-gaps with arm extension and his eyes in the backfield. Offenses simply shouldn't run at him. Eats blocks and keeps linebackers clean. Has to be schemed against. Hands and feet are full synced. Gifted athlete who showed marked improvement as rusher. Increased pressures from 15 to 27 this year. Fluid mover with above-average range to chase. Utilizes slap/arm-over to work around blocker's edge. Can walk interior linemen back into pocket with bullrush. Considered one of the most respected leaders during Saban era.

FURTHER.....in Atlanta, in our scheme, Payne will not have to take on as many double-teams as he did in Bama's defense.

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12 minutes ago, since68andcounting said:

It was not a secret, no. He was a late riser. I know he went at #13 but I thought we drafted #6. Regardless, as defensive ROY, double digit sacks as a DT, and multi year pro bowls, he wouldn't have been over-drafted even at #1 overall.

That's what I'm trying to say about Gisecki. I can be wrong. Everyone can be. And you can come point it out to me in two years if I am. But my gut tells me that Gisecki is highly undervalued even at #26, when most big boards I see have him around #50. I think he will prove to be worth a top 10-15 pick.

 

well let it play out before starting a thread saying that you know some secret about a player.   The NFL does not really rule on a potential of a player until the NFL draft has occurred.   You cannot say in January, February, March or Early April that a player is undervalued.

If you want to wait until after the draft and say Gesicki is undervalued because he was taken at "X" when he should have been taken at "Y" - then sobeit.

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3 hours ago, DMT11 said:

We really have Saubert for this role, guy really cant block at all - consensus among scouts and analyst I pay attention too seemed to make clear this was a very deep DT draft but that TE was pretty thin.  I think other than Hurst these guys arent going to kill it in the NFL because of inflexibility scheme wise when they are on the field.  On the boards I have seen ppl say how strong this TE class is and how weak the DT class is, ppl just saying whatever to fill the the narrative they want.  I even heard Mayock say its one of the best DT classes in last 10 years.  

Saubert is no where near Geseki in terms of skill or athleticism.

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2 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

well let it play out before starting a thread saying that you know some secret about a player.   The NFL does not really rule on a potential of a player until the NFL draft has occurred.   You cannot say in January, February, March or Early April that a player is undervalued.

If you want to wait until after the draft and say Gesicki is undervalued because he was taken at "X" when he should have been taken at "Y" - then sobeit.

Play out? It'll take 3 years for any draft to "play out". And I never mentioned the word "secret". And wtf made you thread police??? I've been a fan for this team for 50 freaking years and if I wanna post a thread, I will. It's just discussion, man, chill a little.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying he will be drafted higher than his projection. Though he might be. I'm saying his long term value could prove to be better than both his projection and his draft position. And it's never too soon to say that. After the draft, it can't help us much, now, can it?

Come call me an idiot in 2 years when he's out of the league. Or not. But don't try to tell me that as a fan I can't give an opinion prior to my team making a decision. That's exactly what this board is for.

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1 minute ago, since68andcounting said:

Play out? It'll take 3 years for any draft to "play out". And I never mentioned the word "secret". And wtf made you thread police??? I've been a fan for this team for 50 freaking years and if I wanna post a thread, I will. It's just discussion, man, chill a little.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying he will be drafted higher than his projection. Though he might be. I'm saying his long term value could prove to be better than both his projection and his draft position. And it's never too soon to say that. After the draft, it can't help us much, now, can it?

Come call me an idiot in 2 years when he's out of the league. Or not. But don't try to tell me that as a fan I can't give an opinion prior to my team making a decision. That's exactly what this board is for.

Yeah it is too soon to say it.  You started the thread to say Gesicki is grossly under valued and basically saying the draft projections are wrong.

Well, no one cares what Walter, who lives in his mom’s basement, thinks and the NFL won’t render a projection on Gesicki until he’s drafted and we see where he goes.

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2 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

Yeah it is too soon to say it.  You started the thread to say Gesicki is grossly under valued and basically saying the draft projections are wrong.

Well, no one cares what Walter, who lives in his mom’s basement, thinks and the NFL won’t render a projection on Gesicki until he’s drafted and we see where he goes.

 

So you're saying that if I want to make a case that he would be worth considering for the Falcons' 1st round pick, I should wait until after the draft??? 

 

Man, I'm not into draft projections for the fun of it. I don't do mocks. I never even played fantasy league until recently. I just wanna see this team win.

G-dawg, you're a great contributor on this board and I love a lot of your posts, but please don't try to tell me what threads I can start as long as they are within the posting guidelines.

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49 minutes ago, Summerhill said:

Yes, Nkemdiche was a headcase off the field and as far as I know Payne is not. 

By football IQ, I mean once you blow up your blocker like Payne is good at, what happens next? Do you sack the QB or tackle to RB for a loss like Suh would do, or does the QB step up in front of you or does the RB make a cut and continue the play like what often happened with Nkemdiche? 

His responsibility at Bama was to absorb blockers to allow the LBs to make the play. Of course that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t take a gimme sack or TFL but his primary responsibility in that defense was absorb blockers and protect 2 gaps. Pairing him with Grady could very well mean fireworks for our DL. He would give us a really nice chess piece. Debo needs to be kept clean and here’s your guy  

As far as blowing up his guy but not making the play, I’d like to see an example of what you mean. 

I’ll let Quinn and co figure out his “CT” score but I don’t feel that’s really a concern. 

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52 minutes ago, since68andcounting said:

 

So you're saying that if I want to make a case that he would be worth considering for the Falcons' 1st round pick, I should wait until after the draft??? 

 

Man, I'm not into draft projections for the fun of it. I don't do mocks. I never even played fantasy league until recently. I just wanna see this team win.

G-dawg, you're a great contributor on this board and I love a lot of your posts, but please don't try to tell me what threads I can start as long as they are within the posting guidelines.

No, not trying to tell you that you cannot start a thread talking about your love for Gesicki- totally cool with that and your opinion on why you think he will be great or even why you think Gesicki should be taken in 1st round.   I have ZERO problem with any part of your opinions on any of it.

Just don’t care for the “undervalued or unrecognized” aspects of your comments because there is NO WAY for any of us to know who is undervalued at this point.   On  Draft weekend, at that point, you will know if Gesicki is undervalued by the NFL in comparison to the value you place on him - so make that argument at the point that it might actually be relevant - right now you are jumping the shark w/ those comments..

 

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9 hours ago, athell said:

You don't take TEs in the 1st.  No.

Just like 3 NFL teams did last year?  And all the other NFL teams that have done so in the past?  You  mean, you don't take TEs like they did in the 1st?

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32 minutes ago, dawgsjw said:

Just like 3 NFL teams did last year?  And all the other NFL teams that have done so in the past?  You  mean, you don't take TEs like they did in the 1st?

I meant what I said.  Unless you are getting some generational talent, TEs are not worthy of first round picks.  I'm aware it happens.  It happens every year.  That is not my point.  They don't produce enough to warrant that high of a pick.  They can be ok players sure, but imo no team should ever pick a TE in round 1.  There is no value or roi.

The last great rookie te was Shockey.  That's how long its been and noone has been close to that since.

Edited by athell

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8 hours ago, AlabamaFalconFan said:

 Only three sacks and five TFLs during his three year career at Alabama (two as a starter). Can't handle a double team.  Checks out vs crappy competition.   

Some on these boards say that a player has "dog" in them... aka they fight non stop.  Payne waited until the sugar bowl and national championships to do anything.  I don't want a first round pick wasted on a dude that doesn't work every play.  Go watch Jarrett ... His motor is non stop, that's what I want.

3 years... 5 tfl and 3 sacks... in college. 

Dude is going to be beat like a drum in the NFL, his ears will be down, and his tail between his legs, cause dude is no dog.

Im with yo , I'd be very dissapointed if he were I pick at 26

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20 hours ago, g-dawg said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are not entitled to your own personal facts.

Your first sentence above was true - in JANUARY........in January before that draft, everyone wanted Aaron Donald in the early 2nd round.  By the time the Senior Bowl ended (where Donald blew it up), when NFL combine ended (when Donald blew it up) and when tape study was done - the range where Aaron Donald could go started w/ the Falcons at #7 and went into the mid teens.   While I won't claim that a majority of Falcon fans wanted Aaron Donald at #7 - a good portion did - maybe as high as 35-40%.   I wasn't one of them - but they were out there.  @Psychic Gibbon  was banging the drum for Aaron Donald very early on - and when all were hoping 3 months before the draft for Aaron Donald in 2nd round, he always maintained that he was a 1st rounder.

Aaron Donald went #13 overall to the Rams - he was not a secret - not by a long, long, long stretch - and, in the same manner, if Gesicki is deemed "the real deal" by NFL GMs, Scouts and HCs - he will go in 1st round as well - Gesicki is well known and not overlooked.

I'm happy with Matthews, especially since finding a good LT is close to impossible these days, but still part of me thinks, "We could have had Jarrett and Donald."

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20 hours ago, g-dawg said:

whenever you cannot do the entire job of a position - it makes you less valuable.    Evan Engram is a good player and I won't trash him.  Heck, I am not trashing Gesicki, either - however, it is a fair and legit point to bring up a fact that a player is one dimensional.   There are less plays you can successfully run for an offense with a deficient blocker and it makes substitution patterns a little more obvious to a defense when guessing what's coming.

As you know I loved engram, but even I will admit that 1st Round is too early for a Joker TE, especially for a team with such a huge hole at DL. 

 

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If he is there at 26 take him..idc if the DT are on the board still I think he is going to be a good player early..I wasn' on the train but after doing reading and looking at a few videos on him I'm on the train

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23 hours ago, athell said:

I meant what I said.  Unless you are getting some generational talent, TEs are not worthy of first round picks.  I'm aware it happens.  It happens every year.  That is not my point.  They don't produce enough to warrant that high of a pick.  They can be ok players sure, but imo no team should ever pick a TE in round 1.  There is no value or roi.

The last great rookie te was Shockey.  That's how long its been and noone has been close to that since.

So what position do you think NFL teams need to draft in the 1st?  Since you stated that 1st rounders are only worth while if they produce in their 1st year, then qbs must be out for you as 1st round selections.  How many rookie qbs produce in their 1st year?  RBs have proven to be able to produce in their 1st year, so I'm guessing you like to draft those in the 1st round?  Maybe WRs can produce in their rookie year but not too many positions can, so not to many positions are left. 

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At least we know Payne played against good competition every week instead of the Montana's, Maine's, Lamar's etc. I realize there are some cases it's proven every year but overall I think the level of composition has to be taken into consideration.

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11 hours ago, dawgsjw said:

So what position do you think NFL teams need to draft in the 1st?  Since you stated that 1st rounders are only worth while if they produce in their 1st year, then qbs must be out for you as 1st round selections.  How many rookie qbs produce in their 1st year?  RBs have proven to be able to produce in their 1st year, so I'm guessing you like to draft those in the 1st round?  Maybe WRs can produce in their rookie year but not too many positions can, so not to many positions are left. 

You are taking a lot of liberties and putting a lot of words in my mouth over the original topic of tight ends in the first.  If you disagree, cool, but I've already stated my case as to why.  Don't be stupid with all this other nonsense.

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10 hours ago, athell said:

You are taking a lot of liberties and putting a lot of words in my mouth over the original topic of tight ends in the first.  If you disagree, cool, but I've already stated my case as to why.  Don't be stupid with all this other nonsense.

I'm just going by what you said. 

 

You said this first:

"Unless you are getting some generational talent, TEs are not worthy of first round picks.  "

Ok, cool, so generational TEs like Gronk, are worth the 1st round pick.  But then you said this gem, which contradicts your quoted statement:

"The last great rookie te was Shockey.  That's how long its been and noone has been close to that since."

So you are saying that only a generational TE is worth taking but TE you used in your example as being last good one is Shockey and you defend your argument by saying what he did his rookie season.  There have been plenty of TEs that have been better than Shockey since he has been in the league, yet you mention him as being the last good one. 

So yes you are being very confusing with what you are saying.  So you are saying that the 1st round selection of a TE is only viable if they are 1) generational talent, or 2) produces in their rookie year? 

Edited by dawgsjw

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On 3/26/2018 at 6:28 PM, athell said:

I meant what I said.  Unless you are getting some generational talent, TEs are not worthy of first round picks.  I'm aware it happens.  It happens every year.  That is not my point.  They don't produce enough to warrant that high of a pick.  They can be ok players sure, but imo no team should ever pick a TE in round 1.  There is no value or roi.

The last great rookie te was Shockey.  That's how long its been and noone has been close to that since.

You are correct.....but the draft is not about rookies....it is  about the future.

There are plenty of tight ends who do not light it up as rookies but by their 2nd  or third season become legit threats.

I am not saying that we should draft him...but you should not avoid a guy just because he may not be great as a rookie because of his position.

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