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Tougher Gun Laws - Yea or Nea

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As America grapples with the fallout of yet another mass shooting the long and bitter debate over gun control in America will inevitably be reopened. After Sandy Hook, Will Oremus highlighted the lessons of Australia’s strict gun laws and the resulting success in preventing subsequent mass shootings there. The original post is reprinted below.

On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.

Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

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Here's the problem, Australia and the US aren't really comparable.  Not just population-wise but culture-wise, number of firearms in circulation, etc.  It's just not a feasible plan of action in the US.

We need kid control more than gun control.  Most, if not all, of these school shootings are done by other kids.  People don't want to hear it but the way kids are raised today is vastly different than it was 20 years ago.  Historically, it's a relatively new thing.  Sure, you had the occasional incident here and there but ever since Columbine it's gone off the charts. The guns have been there long before the upward trend in violence and if anything, it's gotten harder to get a gun than it was back then.  So is it the amount of psychotropic drugs given to kids?  The way parents are supposed to discipline their kids?  The way kids are treated and raised overall?  That's what I'm thinking just based on observations...

 

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Just now, capologist said:

Here's the problem, Australia and the US aren't really comparable.  Not just population-wise but culture-wise, number of firearms in circulation, etc.  It's just not a feasible plan of action in the US.

 

Oh, now that that's settled....

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5 minutes ago, capologist said:

Here's the problem, Australia and the US aren't really comparable.  Not just population-wise but culture-wise, number of firearms in circulation, etc.  It's just not a feasible plan of action in the US.

We need kid control more than gun control.  Most, if not all, of these school shootings are done by other kids.  People don't want to hear it but the way kids are raised today is vastly different than it was 20 years ago.  Historically, it's a relatively new thing.  Sure, you had the occasional incident here and there but ever since Columbine it's gone off the charts. The guns have been there long before the upward trend in violence and if anything, it's gotten harder to get a gun than it was back then.  So is it the amount of psychotropic drugs given to kids?  The way parents are supposed to discipline their kids?  The way kids are treated and raised overall?  That's what I'm thinking just based on observations...

 

Yep, 600,000 guns?  That's about 100 collectors in our country.  

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7 minutes ago, capologist said:

Here's the problem, Australia and the US aren't really comparable.  Not just population-wise but culture-wise, number of firearms in circulation, etc.  It's just not a feasible plan of action in the US.

We need kid control more than gun control.  Most, if not all, of these school shootings are done by other kids.  People don't want to hear it but the way kids are raised today is vastly different than it was 20 years ago.  Historically, it's a relatively new thing.  Sure, you had the occasional incident here and there but ever since Columbine it's gone off the charts. The guns have been there long before the upward trend in violence and if anything, it's gotten harder to get a gun than it was back then.  So is it the amount of psychotropic drugs given to kids?  The way parents are supposed to discipline their kids?  The way kids are treated and raised overall?  That's what I'm thinking just based on observations...

 

 

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Yep, we just can't do anything about it.  So what if your kids are getting shot in the face at school.  Let's just give up.  There's nothing we can do.

 

 

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Just now, WhenFalconsWin said:

Yep, 600,000 guns?  That's about 100 collectors in our country.  

There's over 7.5 million in AR-15's alone which is 150% of what that article claimed was the entire gun population of Australia. 

What gets me is how the term semi-automatic is used by the kids speaking out and others like it's some special thing when it's not.  Every time I read it, you can tell they have no idea what they are talking about which screams of indoctrination...

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1 minute ago, Boner said:

Yep, we just can't do anything about it.  So what if your kids are getting shot in the face at school.  Let's just give up.  There's nothing we can do.

 

 

There's plenty we can do but it starts at home and I don't know how you fix that.  In the meantime, secure the schools like we do banks and every other government building.  Seems to work well there.

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It's also worth pointing out that school shootings have steadily increased since the 40s, going from single digits to around 60 per decade from then to 2010. It's only been in this decade that there has been an absurd amount, 150+ and counting, and that just so happens to coincide with SCOTUS rulings that gutted local, state, and federal gun control laws between 2008-10.

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13 minutes ago, capologist said:

There's plenty we can do but it starts at home and I don't know how you fix that.  In the meantime, secure the schools like we do banks and every other government building.  Seems to work well there.

 So which level of government involvement are you comfortable with? In your home as you raise your child, or in the gunstore as you purchase a firearm? 

I'm not a huge fan of government involvement at any point, but I would very much prefer the latter over the former. 

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2 minutes ago, capologist said:

There's over 7.5 million in AR-15's alone which is 150% of what that article claimed was the entire gun population of Australia. 

What gets me is how the term semi-automatic is used by the kids speaking out and others like it's some special thing when it's not.  Every time I read it, you can tell they have no idea what they are talking about which screams of indoctrination...

I mentioned this the other day.  It's hard for most of us to listen to people like Feinstein and Pelosi (regarding assault rifles) when they think a certain type of grip makes the gun an assault rife.  They have no clue.  If they really wanted to get serious they would start talking handguns which kill far more people in the US than rifles and shotguns bombined, by over 2000%.  

True assault rifles, I would revisit, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, those gun that were made between 1934 and 1986 are the only ones a civilian can own?  

An assault rifle is a machine gun by the definitions used by ATF, and as such no new ones can be made or sold to civilians. This includes some M16 and AK rifles. 7 states have banned these guns, the other's like I said earlier had to be manufactured between 1934 and 1986 and can be legally owned in the remaining states not on the ban list.  This is something that should be looked at no doubt.  

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21 minutes ago, Boner said:

Yep, we just can't do anything about it.  So what if your kids are getting shot in the face at school.  Let's just give up.  There's nothing we can do.

 

 

so if there is something being used to cause unnecessary deaths (such as those resulting from mass shootings) we should get rid of it, right?

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27 minutes ago, capologist said:

There's plenty we can do but it starts at home and I don't know how you fix that.  In the meantime, secure the schools like we do banks and every other government building.  Seems to work well there.

I get the feeling you won't be happy with the amount of new taxes it would take to redesign every school and hire armed guards for them throughout the school year. Having four guards at every school paid below $10 per hour would cost $850,000,000 per month, for starters. Likewise, this would require a federalization of the school system and the funding of it to make it work since many counties and districts will not be able to afford all of this which, again, I think it is safe to assume you will not approve of.

Though I can see this happening since there would be plenty of money in it for contractors and we know how much our government loves those blood suckers.

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3 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

so if there is something being used to cause unnecessary deaths (such as those resulting from mass shootings) we should get rid of it, right?

I smell a false equivalence cooking...

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Just now, Boner said:

I smell a false equivalence cooking...

so explain why one unnecessary death for an action that violates existing law has precedent over another.

 

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6 minutes ago, Gritzblitz 2.0 said:

 So which level of government involvement are you comfortable with? In your home as you raise your child, or in the gunstore as you purchase a firearm? 

I'm not a huge fan of government involvement at any point, but I would very much prefer the latter over the former. 

I tried to explain this yesterday in the Trump thread talking about the danger of contextualizing this entirely as a mental health issue and didn't get anywhere. :bang:

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Just now, Dago 3.0 said:

so explain why one unnecessary death for an action that violates existing law has precedent over another.

 

Well, to begin with, I'd say the safety of children when they are in public schools is vastly more important than most of the issues we discuss here on a daily basis.  I think it's such an important issue that you can't simply wring your hands and say "sorry, nothing we can do".

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41 minutes ago, capologist said:

Here's the problem, Australia and the US aren't really comparable.  Not just population-wise but culture-wise, number of firearms in circulation, etc.  It's just not a feasible plan of action in the US.

We need kid control more than gun control.  Most, if not all, of these school shootings are done by other kids.  People don't want to hear it but the way kids are raised today is vastly different than it was 20 years ago.  Historically, it's a relatively new thing.  Sure, you had the occasional incident here and there but ever since Columbine it's gone off the charts. The guns have been there long before the upward trend in violence and if anything, it's gotten harder to get a gun than it was back then.  So is it the amount of psychotropic drugs given to kids?  The way parents are supposed to discipline their kids?  The way kids are treated and raised overall?  That's what I'm thinking just based on observations...

 

Sums up how I feel. Sorry snowflakes.

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