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ssj5gal

Hold off on Ryan’s extension

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1 minute ago, Statick said:

Garafolo just got 137M for the smallest sample size ever for a QB and we should hold off on Matt's extension?

DUMBEST THREAD EVER.

Well I guess this is just a matter of how many times you run over a dead carcass(IH) on the highway.

At this stage the flattened road pizza is beginning to smell worse & worse.

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9 minutes ago, Statick said:

Garafolo just got 137M for the smallest sample size ever for a QB and we should hold off on Matt's extension?

DUMBEST THREAD EVER.

Let's keep waiting until his baseline price is even higher. :lol:

BTW: Brady career minus 2000 and 2008 (not a starter and injured) season; 30.5TDs per season. Ryan? 26 TDs per season. Good lord Ryan is not elite clearly!

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3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Didn’t see it, sorry.

Last 5 season’s average Total QBR:

Matt Ryan = 68.34

Little Ben = 64.78

russell = 64.18

phillip Rivers = 62.72

 

Past two seasons Russell has experienced what matt did in 2013-14 in having a horrific OL...otherwise he might be higher. But so would matt.

enlightened yet?

 

 

Russell also played in primarily in a running offense. This year when he has an inferior O line and with no running game, he excelled. So the Seagulls were forced to pass more because the running game was so inept and Wilson managed to do even better than he has done before.

When has Ryan done this once? Ryan for his career has had a running game, and when the Falcons did run more, Ryan's stats were low 20s with TDs and his yards around 3500. As he progressed, and the team became more passing oriented, Ryan's yards and TDs went up. Ryan is a classic pocket QB. This is not to undermine him. Not many QBs are as athletic as Wilson. It is not a negation against Ryan as it is a plus for Wilson.

I am not saying that Ryan is bad, but Wilson played out of his mind, especially this season. Wilson is Matt Ryan but with speed. 

Here is a double standard. Ryan is considered elite though he this was a down year and fans are going by what he did years ago. Some of the other QBs I named did better than Ryan this past year, but yet considered worse than him. So here is the thing. Are you calling Ryan elite based on his career or what he has done lately?

I think I am being more consistent since I did considered Brees elite, even his career he has done better overall compared to Ryan, but Brees had a down year. People don't say Brees is still elite because they don't care what he did in the past, but what he did most recently. People see his play deteriorating. It seems using the inferences of people arguing against me, that Brees should be still considered elite based on what he did in previous years, not what he has done recently.

I have acknowledge that Ryan had an elite year in 2016. Ryan probably has a good chance of going to the HOF because he has done well consistently throughout his career, but would you guys use the same standard you use for Ryan for QBs of other teams?

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2016 years ago and 2017 a down year.:lol:

:munch:

PS: BTW why are you comparing QBs of differing molds? Falcons haven't always had a great ground game. In fact, our best years we still struggled with pass protection and hadn't fielded an amazing D. Yes, Turner ate a lot of Matt's early career TD opportunities. Rodgers and Wilson are given more chances to use their legs and arm outside the pocket. Arguing over a ground game for them is ridiculous. It's part of their entire package as a player! It's actually something they should be able to influence more than Matt. Where is he going to threaten someone on the ground?

Compare Ryan to elite QBs of his mold. Ya know, Brady/Brees. Not the mobile gunslingers.

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1 minute ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Russell also played in primarily in a running offense. This year when he has an inferior O line and with no running game, he excelled. So the Seagulls were forced to pass more because the running game was so inept and Wilson managed to do even better than he has done before.

When has Ryan done this once? Ryan for his career has had a running game, and when the Falcons did run more, Ryan's stats were low 20s with TDs and his yards around 3500. As he progressed, and the team became more passing oriented, Ryan's yards and TDs went up. Ryan is a classic pocket QB. This is not to undermine him. Not many QBs are as athletic as Wilson. It is not a negation against Ryan as it is a plus for Wilson.

I am not saying that Ryan is bad, but Wilson played out of his mind, especially this season. Wilson is Matt Ryan but with speed. 

Here is a double standard. Ryan is considered elite though he this was a down year and fans are going by what he did years ago. Some of the other QBs I named did better than Ryan this past year, but yet considered worse than him. So here is the thing. Are you calling Ryan elite based on his career or what he has done lately?

I think I am being more consistent since I did considered Brees elite, even his career he has done better overall compared to Ryan, but Brees had a down year. People don't say Brees is still elite because they don't care what he did in the past, but what he did most recently. People see his play deteriorating. It seems using the inferences of people arguing against me, that Brees should be still considered elite based on what he did in previous years, not what he has done recently.

I have acknowledge that Ryan had an elite year in 2016. Ryan probably has a good chance of going to the HOF because he has done well consistently throughout his career, but would you guys use the same standard you use for Ryan for QBs of other teams?

If Ryan’s going to HOF, isn’t that by definition ‘elite’?

russell is a different weapon, but not a more consistently good QB than matt is, which was my point. And russell’s OL has been bad and his receivers are meh, but not as bad or as meh as ryan’s were in 2013-14. 

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1 hour ago, coastiemike said:

Rogers has three more wins in three extra seasons than Ryan.

Wins are a team stat not a QB stat. People use team wins informally since QBs see the ball the most compared to any other player. Using wins as a standard, Terry Bradshaw would be one of the greatest QBs of all time, even though he was mediocre as a QB. You are only making my point. There is no consistency in the standard you are using.

I will give you my standard for "elite", regardless of the QB and what team they play on and is contingent on the rules they are playing with:

Their TDs and TD/Int ratio needs to be exceptionally high compared to other QBs they are compared with. For me scoring is the most important stat for anyone on offense. To me this is the most important stat for a QB. This includes rushing TDs.

Next is yards per completion. Some completion % can be inflated because of the offense being conservative with a lot of dinking and dunking. I want to see accuracy downfield.

Next would be completion %

Then after that yards. For me yards don't tell the whole story because it depends on the offense. Also QBs can pad their stats in garbage time if the team is losing and opposing Ds are in a soft zone.

I would also include rushing yards since QBs are not limited to passing.

I don't concern myself with rings and wins since for me, that is really a team accomplishment. Also you can have mediocre QBs on good teams, with great defenses, and they are credited with wins. You can have great QBs with horrible defenses but lose because the defense is giving up way too many points.

I also consider the stats with the environment in which the QB is producing these stats. Is he surrounded by great talent or is he still producing with mediocre talent? Obviously if you are playing well with your starters being hurt, or if your starters being nothing special, then having 30 TDs and lets say 4000 yards with worse surrounding talent is greater than having the same stats but with a cast of pro bowl talent surrounding him.

What  is your criteria for "elite"?

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1 hour ago, Intellectually Honest said:

You are imagining things. Neither link "reasoned" anything. There were no arguments from either link. I simply used those links to make MY argument.

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought you were referencing PFF QB grades:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/final-nfl-qb-rankings-by-pff-player-grades-2017

vs ya know the raw stats...

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23 minutes ago, Vandy said:

If Ryan’s going to HOF, isn’t that by definition ‘elite’?

russell is a different weapon, but not a more consistently good QB than matt is, which was my point. And russell’s OL has been bad and his receivers are meh, but not as bad or as meh as ryan’s were in 2013-14. 

No. If you look under the post I am responding to, I give you my criteria for elite. I am curious about what yours is. Like I said, we don't agree on what "elite" means. We are talking about apples and oranges. We don't have an agreed upon standard. I should have pointed this out earlier since without common ground, we are talking past each other.

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25 minutes ago, Vandy said:

If Ryan’s going to HOF, isn’t that by definition ‘elite’?

russell is a different weapon, but not a more consistently good QB than matt is, which was my point. And russell’s OL has been bad and his receivers are meh, but not as bad or as meh as ryan’s were in 2013-14. 

Its like suggesting Brady would have an elite year behind that OL and running game. In Seattle. Nope...why? Different strengths/weaknesses as a player. Yep, the "GOAT" has those, too!

Saying those guys lacked an OL or running game holds more weight. Rodgers and Wilson have more resources physically than Brady or Ryan. Pocket/traditional QB types vs mobile/gunslinger types. Strengths/weaknesses.

I'll give you some TDs from a stronger throwing arm or ability to extend plays outside the pocket helping those numbers. That doesn't invalidate Matt Ryan as elite or not. The fact he sniffs Brady's numbers in that stable ecosystem is a credit to Matt. They had far better defenses than Atlanta; ever. I think 2017 is the first year we had a defense develop into the stronger aspect of the team clearly by season's end since Ryan has been here; not one of comparing 2 bad units and saying the better one is a strength.

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11 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

No. If you look under the post I am responding to, I give you my criteria for elite. I am curious about what yours is. Like I said, we don't agree on what "elite" means. We are talking about apples and oranges. We don't have an agreed up standard. I should have pointed this out earlier since without common ground, we are talking past each other.

Elite to me is consistently being one of the best, year in and year out.

Matt’s not THE best, he doesn’t have ARod’s arm or Brady’s obsession to be great or Brees pinpoint precision passes....but  he is just so freaking consistently good, which is what I want to build my team around because I can count on him to be there and perform. And he’s a tough mudder who hangs in and takes the hits, then gets back up and fights to the end. He’s the consummate professional QB....no drama queen or scandals ala Brady/Roeth/Farve

if that’s not elite/great, I don’t know what is. All he needs is a ring to convince the masses who take his greatness for granted.

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8 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Its like suggesting Brady would have an elite year behind that OL and running game. In Seattle. Nope...why? Different strengths/weaknesses as a player. Yep, the "GOAT" has those, too!

Saying those guys lacked an OL or running game holds more weight. Rodgers and Wilson have more resources physically than Brady or Ryan. Pocket/traditional QB types vs mobile/gunslinger types. Strengths/weaknesses.

I'll give you some TDs from a stronger throwing arm or ability to extend plays outside the pocket helping those numbers. That doesn't invalidate Matt Ryan as elite or not. The fact he sniffs Brady's numbers in that stable ecosystem is a credit to Matt. They had far better defenses than Atlanta; ever. I think 2017 is the first year we had a defense develop into the stronger aspect of the team clearly by season's end since Ryan has been here; not one of comparing 2 bad units and saying the better one is a strength.

Great post. You said it a lot better than I did, Ergo.

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ESPN's Total QBR ranks for Matt Ryan in his career.

  • 2008 - 70.9 (3rd)
  • 2009 - 70.5 (11th)
  • 2010 - 73.5 (4th)
  • 2011 - 72.4 (5th)
  • 2012 - 71.7 (6th)
  • 2013 - 70.2 (8th)
  • 2014 - 70.3 (9th)
  • 2015 - 67.2 (9th)
  • 2016 - 83.3 (1st)
  • 2017 - 64.9 (5th)

Matt Ryan has been extremely consistent throughout his career ranking in the top 10 in Total QBR every year but one and ranking in the top 5 in Total QBR 5 times. Matt Ryan's rate stats over the last 6 years have been some of the best in the NFL.

  • Completions - 2398 (2nd)
  • Completion Percentage - 67.15% (2nd)
  • Yards - 27,558 (2nd)
  • Attempts - 3571 (3rd)
  • Passing Yards Per Game - 287.1 (3rd)
  • Touchdowns - 165 (5th)
  • Yards Per Attempt - 7.72 (5th)
  • QB Rating - 96.3 (6th)
  • Adjusted Yards Per Pass Attempt 7.63 (7th)
  • Interception Percentage - 2.24 (8th)
  • Wins - 52 (8th)
  • Touchdown Percentage - 4.6 (12th)

So, is Matt Ryan elite or not? Numbers say yes!!

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26 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Elite to me is consistently being one of the best.

Matt’s not THE best, he doesn’t have ARod’s arm or Brady’s obsession to be great or Brees pinpoint precision passes....but  he is just so freaking consistently good, which is what I want to build my team around because I can count on him to be there and perform. And he’s a tough mudder who hangs in and takes the hits, then gets back up and fights to the end. He’s the consummate professional QB....no drama queen or scandals ala Brady/Roeth/Farve

if that’s not elite/great, I don’t know what is. All he needs is a ring to convince the masses who take his greatness for granted.

He should have one already.

If you factor playing under a first time HC compared to a 2nd run at HC'ing situation for Belichick then compare franchises at the points Brady went to NE and Ryan to Atlanta it helps Matt's case. Similar could be said of Drew Brees. Took NO from nothing with a brilliant OFFENSIVE minded coach. So far Matt has had 2 defensive minded coaches and has been a stepping stone for mediocre resume OC's to get shots at HC gigs (Mularkey, Koetter, Kyle). Matt is an enabler to good enough coaches and players; IMO.

Compared to Rodgers who got to sit and watch/learn with Z E R O pressure observing Favre and getting a blueprint for reading the mind of a future HOF QB who had a similar mold of his own.

It'd be like Matt sitting and watching Peyton Manning after many years in the league for A FEW SEASONS off the bench before being asked to start. Matt was put here on the foundation of the Vick scandal with Turner as a ground game blanket and we all for the most part saw how limited MM was in the end at developing the team's passing game with his offense. The similar factor that just got him ran out of Tennessee and got him ran out of Jacksonville prior. Almost as if Matt helped him get another HC gig to begin with after the failed Buffalo years?

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9 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Elite to me is consistently being one of the best, year in and year out.

Matt’s not THE best, he doesn’t have ARod’s arm or Brady’s obsession to be great or Brees pinpoint precision passes....but  he is just so freaking consistently good, which is what I want to build my team around because I can count on him to be there and perform. And he’s a tough mudder who hangs in and takes the hits, then gets back up and fights to the end. He’s the consummate professional QB....no drama queen or scandals ala Brady/Roeth/Farve

if that’s not elite/great, I don’t know what is. All he needs is a ring to convince the masses who take his greatness for granted.

Well we both agree Ryan is consistently good. I never argued against that. He is also tough. He is rarely hurt. But do you understand, depending on someone's criteria, what a person would say is or isn't elite?

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10 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Great post. You said it a lot better than I did, Ergo.

Just what I bring to the table. We all have something. I don't necessarily mind a legit opinion of very very high standard for the elite label but that's where we all can have opinions. Just feels rather restrictive of Matt who isn't as flashy as running QBs but delivers as well as almost any traditional QB type we've seen. Elite is not the same as greatest player at a position of all time arguments. To me, the definitions blur here and hurt Matt by failing to keep the two things separate. Like, how can Ryan not be elite if his play overall gets him into the HOF? Wasn't elite btw congrats on HOF?

 

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12 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

ESPN's Total QBR ranks for Matt Ryan in his career.

  • 2008 - 70.9 (3rd)
  • 2009 - 70.5 (11th)
  • 2010 - 73.5 (4th)
  • 2011 - 72.4 (5th)
  • 2012 - 71.7 (6th)
  • 2013 - 70.2 (8th)
  • 2014 - 70.3 (9th)
  • 2015 - 67.2 (9th)
  • 2016 - 83.3 (1st)
  • 2017 - 64.9 (5th)

Matt Ryan has been extremely consistent throughout his career ranking in the top 10 in Total QBR every year but one and ranking in the top 5 in Total QBR 5 times. Matt Ryan's rate stats over the last 6 years have been some of the best in the NFL.

  • Completions - 2398 (2nd)
  • Completion Percentage - 67.15% (2nd)
  • Yards - 27,558 (2nd)
  • Attempts - 3571 (3rd)
  • Passing Yards Per Game - 287.1 (3rd)
  • Touchdowns - 165 (5th)
  • Yards Per Attempt - 7.72 (5th)
  • QB Rating - 96.3 (6th)
  • Adjusted Yards Per Pass Attempt 7.63 (7th)
  • Interception Percentage - 2.24 (8th)
  • Wins - 52 (8th)
  • Touchdown Percentage - 4.6 (12th)

So, is Matt Ryan elite or not? Numbers say yes!!

As I told the other poster, it depends on your criteria, and what importance you place on different stats and the context those stats are in. Stats are helpful, but they don't tell the entire story.

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On 2/8/2018 at 3:34 PM, Intellectually Honest said:

Well we both agree Ryan is consistently good. I never argued against that. He is also tough. He is rarely hurt. But do you understand, depending on someone's criteria, what a person would say is or isn't elite?

Actually, You’re the one who questioned if he was elite after I suggested he was, IH. And it went downhill from there. 

FYI I didn’t really take exception with that  ‘elite v non-elite’ part of your posts, I agree it can be subjective....although I obviously feel strongly that he is elite, and I feel strongly he’s underappreciate by media and even his fan base. 

Where I took exception was to your post “Ryan has been borderline 10-15 QB for his career” ...that’s just utter nonsense. And you followed that up with “past 5 years he’s been near the top 10”....both were false statements, which i set out to disproved succinctly. 

 

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13 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

It would be fun to see OP and other troll gang explode after the deal is done. 

At this point it's like starting a thread saying the Falcons should play all their games at the local high school because the Benz costs too much but it isn't the best stadium in the world.

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3 minutes ago, Geneaut said:

At this point it's like starting a thread saying the Falcons should play all their games at the local high school because the Benz costs too much but it isn't the best stadium in the world.

Take us back to our OLD home TD! /'troffed :lol:

Super Bowls btw?

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1 hour ago, Geneaut said:

At this point it's like starting a thread saying the Falcons should play all their games at the local high school because the Benz costs too much but it isn't the best stadium in the world.

Exactly. Billionaires are paying Millionaires. It’s a business dictated by market value.

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