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ssj5gal

Hold off on Ryan’s extension

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7 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

That isn't saying much since the rule changes between the time Johnny Unitas played or even Joe Montana. I mean when Johnny U was playing throwing 20 TD was extremely rare. When Montana was playing, it was 30. Now with the rule changes QBs are hitting near 40 with 2 going near 50 or over. The passing yards for an average QB inflated also, along with TD/INT ratio as well completion percentage.

Ryan needs to be ranked with his peers playing around the same time with the same rules that effect the passing game. Do you think Ryan would be passing for 4000 yards and 25 TDs if he was playing in the 60s? GTO with that BS.

So we are moving the goal posts from he can’t get into the end zone consistently to the NFL has changed?

So, let’s rank him among his peers then. Active QBs currently ahead are Brady, Brees, Rivers, Manning, Roethlisburger, Rogers, and a Palmer.  That puts Ryan at #8.  Notice anything in common with all of those? They’ve all been playing several years longer.  Compare year by year and Ryan moves up to top 3-4 after 10 years.  He also achieved 40,000 career yards faster than any of those seven.  Go ahead and keep hating Ryan and hoping for more Harrington and Leftwich and Hebert years.

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2 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I never claimed top 5 is elite. There is no set number for elite. For the most part Brady, Brees and Rodgers were considered the only 3 elite QBs because their level of play was so much better than the QBs below them even if you were the 4th or 5th best QB in the league.

Rogers has three more wins in three extra seasons than Ryan.

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Just now, coastiemike said:

So we are moving the goal posts from he can’t get into the end zone consistently to the NFL has changed?

So, let’s rank him among his peers then. Active QBs currently ahead are Brady, Brees, Rivers, Manning, Roethlisburger, Rogers, and a Palmer.  That puts Ryan at #8.  Notice anything in common with all of those? They’ve all been playing several years longer.  Compare year by year and Ryan moves up to top 3-4 after 10 years.

I didn't move the goal posts. This is obvious. Even in an interview Joe Montana pointed this out, not just with QBs but with any player. Rules effect what players can do. The stats don't show what is or isn't allowed and how it can effect how a player's stats are effected. A simple fact that in the 60s DBs could hold players and basically push and pull them no matter where they were on the field. Today they aren't allowed to grab, and their shoving matches aren't allowed beyond 5 yards from the line of scrimmage. You don't think that is not going to effect the passing and receiving? If this is news to yor, then you are oblivious as a NFL fan.

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26 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

You seem to agree with me in other threads. In this one you disagree and now I am full of crap. Weird. 

WTF? So if we disagree on Ryan status as a qb, we can’t agree on other football matters? Are you being serious?

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19 minutes ago, coastiemike said:

#18 in NFL History in TDs thrown and will move to #15 all time, just behind Unitas if he stays healthy this year.  He will pass Montana this year btw. Yet, has a hard time ;-/

SB or bust that's what it'll come down too the guy your presenting facts to will end up there just thought I'd give you the heads up lol.

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15 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I never claimed top 5 is elite. There is no set number for elite. For the most part Brady, Brees and Rodgers were considered the only 3 elite QBs because their level of play was so much better than the QBs below them even if you were the 4th or 5th best QB in the league.

LOL...asked and never answered. Because we both know the answer was none. 

And you knew the next question coming, right? To your bullish!t earlier comment of Ryan being borderline 10-12th best QB over past 10 years? 

You stepped ALL in it, intellectually dishonest. 

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1 minute ago, Vandy said:

WTF? So if we disagree on Ryan status as a qb, we can’t agree on other football matters? Are you being serious?

I didn't say we couldn't disagree. I said that you seem fine with me when we agree but when we don't suddenly I am a BS artist to you or however you phrased it. You are just getting emotional at this point. You want me to respect you and answer your question but when I make my points you respond in a condescending fashion without dealing with what I point out.

I will even try to give you an olive branch. Ryan is consistent, and for most of his career via PFF he is top 10. He has more years being top 5 according to them than I thought. The main thing keep Ryan from being "elite" is the TDs. You can't get around that. He had 2 years exceeding 30 TDs. Now you compare that with Brees, Brady and Rodgers and you will see my point and why most don't consider Ryan to be elite. The only people that think Ryan is elite is a portion of Falcons fans. Why is that?

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Wow! Intellectually Honest is just getting abused!  Holy smokes!

Maybe he should just give up.  You have to cut your losses at some point I would think if your being intellectually honest with yourself.  

If you keep up the nonsense maybe it would be wise to drop the fake name.

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4 minutes ago, Vandy said:

LOL...asked and never answered. Because we both know the answer was none. 

And you knew the next question coming, right? To your bullish!t earlier comment of Ryan being borderline 10-12th best QB over past 10 years? 

You stepped ALL in it, intellectually dishonest. 

I did answer. Scroll up. I said Rivers, Wilson and Roethlisberger. You are so worried about insulting me you don't bother reading my posts. Why are you making this personal?

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Literally, the only thing measurable related to Matt has been eye popping TD totals per year on average. Brady for his career minus 2008 injured year is at 30.5 TDs per year:

Brady pre-Randy Moss/McDaniels 2nd year as OC; So from 01-06:

24.5 TDs per season

2007 50 TDs (Randy Moss elite take a shot on you deep from anywhere on the field; a bigger deep threat than Julio as in faster and taller no question) 

Post 2008 injury I'm leaving this out as well as 2007 (otherwise it's viewed as 25 TDs across):

32 TDs rounded down from 2009 onward.

That's legitimately the major argument outside of a SB ring for elite banter. Still, I wager you Matt hasn't had a consistent red zone target since Tony G left.

Matt reaching 30+ TDs is a reasonable expectation of his game and is a sound estimation to say his current status; despite the 20 TD down scoring year which exonerates him when measuring his play using advanced metrics, so if you are going to argue elite on that basis alone it's basically like Brady's early career: Those numbers hindered present day production averages. And we're talking about arguably greatest/clutchest QB of all time vs Ryan. Ryan can't be elite if he's not equal to Brady? That's just dogmatic.

Elite is a label. Definitions vary greatly. Smack talk is SBs. A step above that is raw stats. For deeper individuals that want to be objective without blindly reading one representation of measurement; the advanced metrics and Ryan's overall play (the eye test) suggests he is elite.

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Just now, Intellectually Honest said:

I didn't say we couldn't disagree. I said that you seem fine with me when we agree but when we don't suddenly I am a BS artist to you or however you phrased it. You are just getting emotional at this point. You want me to respect you and answer your question but when I make my points you respond in a condescending fashion without dealing with what I point out.

I will even try to give you an olive branch. Ryan is consistent, and for most of his career via PFF he is top 10. He has more years being top 5 according to them than I thought. The main thing keep Ryan from being "elite" is the TDs. You can't get around that. He had 2 years exceeding 30 TDs. Now you compare that with Brees, Brady and Rodgers and you will see my point and why most don't consider Ryan to be elite. The only people that think Ryan is elite is a portion of Falcons fans. Why is that?

You are confused...respecting me is not a high priority, because you don’t really know me, not I you. We’re just two posters disagreeing on where matt Ryan stands in qb status. 

Where i’m calling you out as BS is in making factually incorrect comments. 

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33 minutes ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

Blather.  Nothing you say anymore that I can take seriously bro.  Seek counseling for your MR hatred. He lives inside your head and tortures you by his very existence.  Epic fail.

When did I ever say I hate Matt Ryan. So I don't think he is elite but acknowledge that he is a very good consistent QB and that to you is hate? Dude, you are delusional.

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1 minute ago, Vandy said:

You are confused...respecting me is not a high priority, because you don’t really know me, not I you. We’re just two posters disagreeing on where matt Ryan stands in qb status. 

Where i’m calling you out as BS is in making factually incorrect comments. 

I didn't give factually incorrect comments. I gave you the stats and cited my sources. If anything we are disagreeing on what the criteria for elite is - which I think the crux of the problem. You have your idea of elite and I have mine. For you being elite is being Top 10 - top 5 QB consistently. For me it is more than that. It is not just about yards and completion % which Ryan is consistent with, which we both agree on. I keep bringing up TDs and you have yet to respond to this since this is not Ryan's strong suit.

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4 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

When did I ever say I hate Matt Ryan. So I don't think he is elite but acknowledge that he is a very good consistent QB and that to you is hate? Dude, you are delusional.

You advised he wasn’t consistently good.

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3 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I didn't give factually incorrect comments. I gave you the stats and cited my sources. If anything we are disagreeing on what the criteria for elite is - which I think the crux of the problem. You have your idea of elite and I have mine. For you being elite is being Top 10 - top 5 QB consistently. For me it is more than that. It is not just about yards and completion % which Ryan is consistent with, which we both agree on. I keep bringing up TDs and you have yet to respond to this since this is not Ryan's strong suit.

He was consistently top 10, among his peers, with the stats you posted.

2008 18th
2009 21st
2010 6th
2011 7th
2012 6th
2013 2nd
2014 2nd
2015 5th
2016 17th
2017 10th

thats 7/10 seasons he has been in the top 10.

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Just now, coastiemike said:

You advised he wasn’t consistently good.

No. You are imagining things. Quote where I said that Ryan is not good. I only said I didn't think he was elite.

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To paraphrase Clint Eastwood 'Elite's got nothing to do with it'

Matt is going to get paid what the market dictates. The market is paying QBs insane amounts of money right now, and we don't have a replacement for him on the roster. Ergo Matt is going to get paid a lot of money, and we will be the team doing it.

Liking Matt or his game doesn't matter. He is going to get PAID. Blank will smile while he signs the contract because Matt is sitting in the drivers seat.

Deal with it.

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1 minute ago, Intellectually Honest said:

When did I ever say I hate Matt Ryan. So I don't think he is elite but acknowledge that he is a very good consistent QB and that to you is hate? Dude, you are delusional.

Ok bro, you spend an awful lot of time working against Ryan for some reason.  

I think it fair to say that it’s you that might be the delusional one.  

Clearly you’ve developed an opinion that amounts to a fractional minority of the greater volume of opinions.  

The fail continues.

 

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23 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I did answer. Scroll up. I said Rivers, Wilson and Roethlisberger. You are so worried about insulting me you don't bother reading my posts. Why are you making this personal?

Didn’t see it, sorry. And it’s NOT personal, I enjoy and agree with a lot of your posts. Just don’t agree on this issue.

Last 5 season’s average Total QBR:

Matt Ryan = 68.34

Little Ben = 64.78

russell = 64.18

phillip Rivers = 62.72

 

Past two seasons Russell has experienced what matt did in 2013-14 in having a horrific OL...otherwise he might be higher. But so would matt.

enlightened yet?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Intellectually Honest said:

No. You are imagining things. Quote where I said that Ryan is not good. I only said I didn't think he was elite.

You advised borderline 10-15.  I’d say that isn’t very good, and it refutes when you posted stats showing he was top 10 7 of his 10 seasons. What exactly is your definition of very good, good, bad, and elite?

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Just now, coastiemike said:

He was consistently top 10, among his peers, with the stats you posted.

Once again, even in the post you are responding to being the problem is about what someone's criteria for being elite is. Maybe for you it is being top 10. It is not the same for me. For me, the thing that Ryan lacks to be considered on the level that Brees was, and what Brady and Rodgers still is, is TDs, and including his TD to int ratio. I think we can agree Ryan has been consistent with his yards and completion percentage being relatively high for his career. He TDs are good, not great on average. Mid 20s.

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48 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I didn't move the goal posts. This is obvious. Even in an interview Joe Montana pointed this out, not just with QBs but with any player. Rules effect what players can do. The stats don't show what is or isn't allowed and how it can effect how a player's stats are effected. A simple fact that in the 60s DBs could hold players and basically push and pull them no matter where they were on the field. Today they aren't allowed to grab, and their shoving matches aren't allowed beyond 5 yards from the line of scrimmage. You don't think that is not going to effect the passing and receiving? If this is news to yor, then you are oblivious as a NFL fan.

Julio Jones would like a word with you (fair point but doesn't mean stuff doesn't happen)

Again, generally speaking stats are a barometer and one metric point. Blindly letting them turn into "hmm this one area is SLIGHTLY lacking from a singular perspective so let's invalidate Matt as elite at all or bar him from the way I form my opinions" is just petty IMO....

Ryan is close to Brady over the course of their careers sans-SB titles. Thats comparing Ryan to what many consider the GOAT. Not trying to do say Ryan is in that conversation. You can't be elite if you aren't somehow specifically sexy leader in a singular metric such as:

Brady's rings/clutch, Rodgers gunslinger Favre version 2.0, Brees insane accuracy, but let's fail to measure those guys weaknesses too? Brees has often been an INT machine; accuracy to a fault. Brady rode on the backs of dominant defenses to his early titles and has likely the best HC in NFL history for his whole career. Rodgers had a canon and is mobile yet struggles when behind in a game and asked to stay in the pocket. But no, Ryan isn't averaging another 3 or 4 TDs per season so he's out of the equation? Ryan got his amazing stat year in 2016 where every raw number was "elite" for that year. You don't go back and say "Brady still got 50 that one year so Matt's 2016 isn't that great at all so LUL aha" because it's actually illogical. Believing that would prove an agenda.

I'm biased towards Matt, but basically people are trying to put him into a box. National media and mindless locals that want to blame him for us not winning a SB yet. It's just ridiculous. Then we have the passive agressive "Well he's in the hall of very good; better than guys under him as a QB but since he isn't best arm or total TD or accuracy leader or clutch leader he can't be in the elite conversation" is ridiculous. Ryan is overall up there in all those categories (but!!!)

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15 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I didn't give factually incorrect comments. I gave you the stats and cited my sources. If anything we are disagreeing on what the criteria for elite is - which I think the crux of the problem. You have your idea of elite and I have mine. For you being elite is being Top 10 - top 5 QB consistently. For me it is more than that. It is not just about yards and completion % which Ryan is consistent with, which we both agree on. I keep bringing up TDs and you have yet to respond to this since this is not Ryan's strong suit.

This is somewhat true I guess. I consider Top 5 tier one, next 5 tier two, etc

I assume the fact Ryan has a losing (4-6) playoff record and no SB rings also enters into your equation? 

As far as TDs are concerned, too many variables go into that statistic for me to be a valid stat for eliteness. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000872162/Julio-Jones-drops-would-be-39-yard-TD-on-4th-and-7

Plus Fran Tark is somewhere near all-time in that variable stat. I think you would agree he was not a better qb than a lot of guys behind him on that list.

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5 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Once again, even in the post you are responding to being the problem is about what someone's criteria for being elite is. Maybe for you it is being top 10. It is not the same for me. For me, the thing that Ryan lacks to be considered on the level that Brees was, and what Brady and Rodgers still is, is TDs, and including his TD to int ratio. I think we can agree Ryan has been consistent with his yards and completion percentage being relatively high for his career. He TDs are good, not great on average. Mid 20s.

Ranked 8th among active QBs and every QBs above him has 4+ years on him, except Rogers who has 3 more years.  That is a far cry from mid 20s.

For QBs drafted since 2008, Ryan has 260, Stafford has 216, Flacco has 200, Dalton 167, Wilson 160, Newton 158.

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