SkerFalcon8710

Mass shooting in Vegas

2,260 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Optimus_Cr1m35 said:

I don't even know how you strung together these words.

 

You said, FBI Stats showed 2.5 million. I'm asking you to show me the FBI Stats. Show me the stats, or admit that you actually have no clue what you're talking about.

You can believe what you want, and the FBI stated Klecks findings, and Kleck's finding was a detailed investigation. But you can have your own opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Guns and Crime Prevention

Myth: Private ownership of guns is not effective in preventing crime

GUNS AND CRIME PREVENTION - Defensive Gun Use (DGU) vs Firearm Violent CrimeFact: Every year, people in the United States use guns to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds. 1  Of these instances, 15.7% of the people using firearms defensively stated that they “almost certainly” saved their lives by doing so.

Fact: Even the government’s estimate, which has a major methodology problem, 2 estimates people defend themselves 235,700 times each year with guns. 3

Fact: The number of times per year an American uses a firearm to deter a home invasion alone is 498,000. 4

Fact: In 83.5% (2,087,500) of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first, proving that guns are very well suited for self-defense.

Fact: The rate of defensive gun use (DGU) is six times that of criminal gun use. 5

Fact:  Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. 6

Fact:  In most of the remaining 8% of defensive gun uses, a citizen never wounds his or her attacker (they fire warning shots), and in less than one in a thousand instances is the attacker killed. 7

Fact: In one local review of firearm homicide, more than 12% were civilian legal defensive homicides. 8

Fact: For every accidental death (802), suicide (16,869) or homicide (11,348) 9 with a firearm (29,019), 13 lives (390,000) 10 are preserved through defensive use.

Fact: When using guns in self-defense, 91.1% of the time, not a single shot is fired. 11

Fact: After the implementation of Canada’s 1977 gun controls prohibiting handgun possession for protection, the “breaking and entering” crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the American rate. 12

Myth: Only police should have guns

Fact: “Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.” 13

Fact: For kids in schools, police end such attacks only 27% of the time. 14

Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person — about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. 15

Fact: Police have trouble keeping their own guns.  Hundreds of firearms are missing from the FBI and 449 of them have been involved in crimes. 16

Fact: People who saw the helplessness of the L.A. Police Department during the 1992 King Riots or the looting and violence in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina know that citizens need guns to defend themselves.

Fact: “In actual shootings, citizens do far better than law enforcement on hit potential. They hit their targets and they don’t hit other people. I wish I could say the same for cops. We train more, they do better.” 17

 

GUNS AND CRIME PREVENTION - Injury Rates by Self Protection MethodMyth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense

Fact: You are far more likely to survive violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. 18

Myth: Guns are not effective in preventing crime against women

Fact: Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% (192,500) are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.

Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks were completed, compared to 32% when the woman was unarmed. 19

Reported Rape Rates 1995–2003 (per 100,000 pop.)
  1995 2003 % Change
Australia 72.5 91.7 +26.5
United Kingdom 43.3 69.2 +59.8
United States 37.1 32.1 -13.5

Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with guns. Men also benefit from using guns, but the benefits are smaller: Men are 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury. 20

Fact: 28.5% of women have one or more guns in the house. 21

Fact: 41.7% of women either own or have convenient access to guns. 22

Fact: In 1966, the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms training classes to women. Rapes dropped by nearly 90% the following year.

GUNS AND CRIME PREVENTION - Rape Rate in England and Wales before and after major gun control actsFact: Firearm availability appears to be particularly useful in avoiding rape. The United Kingdom virtually banned handgun ownership. During the same period handgun ownership in the United States steadily rose. Yet the rate of rape decreased in the United States and skyrocketed in the other countries, as shown in the table.

Fact: More Americans believe having a gun in the home makes them safer. This belief grows every year the survey is taken. 23

Fact: Arthur Kellerman, a researcher whose work is often cited by gun control groups, said “If you’ve got to resist, your chances of being hurt are less the more lethal your weapon. If that were my wife, would I want her to have a .38 Special in her hand? Yeah.” 24


 

Notes:

  1. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Kleck and Gertz, Fall 1995 This ongoing victimization survey involved people from the government personally interviewing victims in person. Some criminologists believe this induces self-reporting biases (e.g., people don’t like to tell the government they own a gun). Thus, this low number from the National Crime Victimization Survey is considered to be an outlier and not reliable. Firearm Violence, 1993-2011, Bureau of Justice Statistics, May 2013 
  2. Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994. Robin M. Ikeda, Violence and Victims, Winter 1997 
  3. Crime statistics: Bureau of Justice Statistics – National Crime Victimization Survey (2005).  DGU statistics: Targeting Guns, Kleck (average of 15 major surveys where DGUs were reported) 
  4. Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997, from the National Self-Defense Survey 
  5. Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997, from the National Self-Defense Survey 
  6. Death by Gun: One Year Later, Time Magazine, May 14, 1990 
  7. Unintentional Firearm Deaths, 2001, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control 
  8. Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997 
  9. National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000 
  10. Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States, Canada and England and Wales, Pat Mayhew, National Institute of Justice., Wash., D.C., 1987 
  11. Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, Wright and Rossi, 1986 
  12. Implications for the Prevention of School Attacks, United States Secret Service and United States Department of Education, 2002 
  13. Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws, Clayton Cramer, David Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994 
  14. ABC News, July 17, 2001 
  15. Sheriff Greg White, Cole County, Missouri, Guns to be allowed on campus?, KRCG News, July 31, 2009 
  16. The Value of Civilian Handgun Possession as a Deterrent to Crime or a Defense Against Crime, Don B. Kates, 1991 American Journal of Criminal Law 
  17. Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, U.S. Department of Justice, 1979 
  18. National Crime Victimization Survey, Department of Justice 
  19. 2001 National Gun Policy Survey of the National Opinion Research Center: Research Findings, Smith, T, National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago, December 2001. 
  20. 2001 National Gun Policy Survey of the National Opinion Research Center: Research Findings, Smith, T, National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago, December 2001. 
  21. Americans by Slight Margin Say Gun in the Home Makes It Safer, Gallup Poll, October 20, 2006 
  22. Gun Crazy, S.F. Examiner, April 3, 1994 

Show me the stats from the FBI. Not gunfactsinfo.com, not Gary Kleck. Show me the FBI Stats, or admit that you don't know what you're talking about...

 

Here's more info on Kleck... 

Quote

Kleck’s data would require, impossibly, that gun owners use their gun in self-defense in more than 100 percent of burglaries. Kleck’s data also suggests that every year hundreds of thousands of criminals are shot by law-abiding citizens. But where are the hospital records to validate this claim?  Kleck insists, with no medical knowledge and without citing a single study, that the vast majority of these criminals never seek hospital treatment, a claim scoffed at by medical professionals.

 

Leon Troutsky likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

You can believe what you want, and the FBI stated Klecks findings, and Kleck's finding was a detailed investigation. But you can have your own opinion.

Show me where the FBI Stats confirm Kleck's findings.

 

Otherwise, you're just full of sh*t.

Leon Troutsky likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives

A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. [1] This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. [2]

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.[4]

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.[5]

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."[7]

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year. [8] Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."

B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home. [9] * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.[11]

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."[12]

* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state. [13] FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. [14]

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport. [15]

C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole. [16]

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed. [17]

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%. [18] Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation. [19]

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful. [20] Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun." [21]

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."[22] * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." [23]


[1] Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164. Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology. Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator.... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.

Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls -- one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times -- that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).

As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.

[2] According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.

[3] Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.

[4]Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185.

[5]Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief (May 1997); available at http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt on the internet. The finding of 1.5 million yearly self-defense cases did not sit well with the anti-gun bias of the study's authors, who attempted to explain why there could not possibly be one and a half million cases of self-defense every year. Nevertheless, the 1.5 million figure is consistent with a mountain of independent surveys showing similar figures. The sponsors of these studies -- nearly a dozen -- are quite varied, and include anti-gun organizations, news media organizations, governments and commercial polling firms. See also Kleck and Gertz, supra note 1, pp. 182-183.

[6]Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.

[7]George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93.

[8]Id. at 164, 185.

[9]Dr. Gary Kleck, interview with J. Neil Schulman, "Q and A: Guns, crime and self-defense," The Orange County Register (19 September 1993). In the interview with Schulman, Dr. Kleck reports on findings from a national survey which he and Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993 -- a survey which findings were reported in Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime."

[10]One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on the study's findings in John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," The Wall Street Journal (28 August 1996). See also John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns," University of Chicago (15 August 1996); and Lott, More Guns, Less Crime (1998, 2000).

[11]Lott and Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns."

[12]Kathleen O'Leary Morgan, Scott Morgan and Neal Quitno, "Rankings of States in Most Dangerous/Safest State Awards 1994 to 2003," Morgan Quitno Press (2004) at http://www.statestats.com/dang9403.htm. Morgan Quitno Press is an independent private research and publishing company which was founded in 1989. The company specializes in reference books and monthly reports that compare states and cities in several different subject areas. In the first 10 years in which they published their Safest State Award, Vermont has consistently remained one of the top five safest states.

[13]Memo by Jim Smith, Secretary of State, Florida Department of State, Division of Licensing, Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report (October 1, 2002). 
14Florida's murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in 2002. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.

[15]John R. Lott, Jr., "Right to carry would disprove horror stories," Kansas City Star, (July 12, 2003).

[16]Gary Kleck, "Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force," Social Problems 35 (February 1988):15.

[17]Compare Kleck, "Crime Control," at 15, and Chief Dwaine L. Wilson, City of Kennesaw Police Department, "Month to Month Statistics: 1991." (Residential burglary rates from 1981-1991 are based on statistics for the months of March - October.)

[18]Kleck, Point Blank, at 140.

[19]Kleck, "Crime Control," at 13.

[20]U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities (1979), p. 31.

[21]U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July 1985): 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Optimus_Cr1m35 said:

Show me where the FBI Stats confirm Kleck's findings.

 

Otherwise, you're just full of sh*t.

The FBI didn't just use 1 stat from Kleck, they used dozens....https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi+quotes+gary+klecks+gun+stats&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNyYv6r9zWAhUIQCYKHde2CqYQsAQIJw&biw=1680&bih=895#imgrc=m-n3a-RBoncrtM:

So, that being said F O. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Again, since you don't understand that Kleck is full of sh*t. Posting more of Kleck's crap doesn't confirm your stance. His study has been thoroughly debunked, by numerous others, and numerous other studies.

 

Post what you claimed to have. Post FBI stats. Not a google search using "fbi quotes gary klecks gun stats" as the search (which, BTW, doesn't contain a single link to anything actually stated by the FBI)

 

 

Leon Troutsky likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Gritzblitz 2.0 said:

 Both have lived in New Orleans.

Look into it!

my mom used to hang out with Oswald

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

You don't read well. The stats STATES between 700-1 million plus crimes are THWARTED, by a civilian with a gun. That means, the victim defended themselves and didn't become a VICTIM. 

Source?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.

I’m sure others have pointed this out, but...

That’s not the FBI.  It’s a pair of criminologists.

Their study is based on a survey (ahem...that means the POLLS you hate so much).

Their statistical analysis is somewhat flawed.  And their underlying methodology has no way to verify that these defensive gun uses actually occurred.  They are relying on self-reporting.  

That doesn’t mean it’s garbage, but it means that your citing of it is far, far more definitive than their evidence allows.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Optimus_Cr1m35 said:

Except that study also doesn’t allow for non-fatal defensive gun uses.  So it’s flawed as well.

JDaveG likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The DoJ, and FBI found that during a 5 year period, self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. 67k a year.

 

 

Meanwhile, 280k+ guns are stolen each year. 33k are killed each year. And 81k are wounded by guns each year.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Optimus_Cr1m35 said:

The DoJ, and FBI found that during a 5 year period, self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. 67k a year.

 

 

Meanwhile, 280k+ guns are stolen each year. 33k are killed each year. And 81k are wounded by guns each year.

 

 

 

Does “self protective behaviors” include non-fatal instances of gun defense...a person pulls a gun on an intruder and the intruder leaves without any violence?

That’s the problem with the counter-arguments to Kleck.  Most of those counter-studies are just as flawed as his, but in different ways.

JDaveG likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Leon Troutsky said:

Except that study also doesn’t allow for non-fatal defensive gun uses.  So it’s flawed as well.

This one is the active-shooter study. Out of 160 mass shootings, only 1 was an average guy with his own weapon. This one doesn't refer to the shooter's condition "post-confrontation"

 

I'm assuming you're referring to the 259 justifiable homicides number. Which I agree that it doesn't tell the entire story, but as we all know, the story is hard to get when you aren't funded to study it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Optimus_Cr1m35 said:

This one is the active-shooter study. Out of 160 mass shootings, only 1 was an average guy with his own weapon. This one doesn't refer to the shooter's condition "post-confrontation"

 

I'm assuming you're referring to the 259 justifiable homicides number. Which I agree that it doesn't tell the entire story, but as we all know, the story is hard to get when you aren't funded to study it...

Yeah, I was referring to the justifiable homocides number.  

The problem is that defensive gun uses are rare.  So are burglaries and other similar crimes.  In the aggregate, there are tens of thousands of them.  But on a per-person probability, it’s a very rare event.

Correctly estimating very rare events, especially events made even rare by defensive gun use (what is the probability that any given American will be the victim of a burglary AND use a firearm in defense) is notoriously difficult.  

Some of the problems with these studies is overt bias.  But some of it is that it’s a very difficult thing to estimate so ANY researcher, even non-biased ones, will have a hard time coming up with an accurate number.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Leon Troutsky said:

Does “self protective behaviors” include non-fatal instances of gun defense...a person pulls a gun on an intruder and the intruder leaves without any violence?

That’s the problem with the counter-arguments to Kleck.  Most of those counter-studies are just as flawed as his, but in different ways.

This one did. Whether the gun was actively used or not didn't matter. The Self-Protective behaviors were listed as...

Offered No Resistance

Threatened or Attacked with a Firearm

Threatened or Attacked with Another Weapon

Threatened or Attacked with No Weapon

Nonconfrontational tactics include yelling, running, or arguing

Other Reaction

Unknown Reaction

Property Crime, Victim not Present.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Optimus_Cr1m35 said:

This one did. Whether the gun was actively used or not didn't matter. The Self-Protective behaviors were listed as...

Offered No Resistance

Threatened or Attacked with a Firearm

Threatened or Attacked with Another Weapon

Threatened or Attacked with No Weapon

Nonconfrontational tactics include yelling, running, or arguing

Other Reaction

Unknown Reaction

Property Crime, Victim not Present.

 

Really?  Thanks, and can you send a link to the study?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Leon Troutsky said:

Yeah, I was referring to the justifiable homocides number.  

The problem is that defensive gun uses are rare.  So are burglaries and other similar crimes.  In the aggregate, there are tens of thousands of them.  But on a per-person probability, it’s a very rare event.

Correctly estimating very rare events, especially events made even rare by defensive gun use (what is the probability that any given American will be the victim of a burglary AND use a firearm in defense) is notoriously difficult.  

Some of the problems with these studies is overt bias.  But some of it is that it’s a very difficult thing to estimate so ANY researcher, even non-biased ones, will have a hard time coming up with an accurate number.  

Ah, NO. Defensive gun events are NOT RARE. And Kleck isn't working for any group and actual is a member of the ACLU. His work was controversial only because it didn't align with what the anti gun crowd wanted to suggest. Kinda like my favorite GT global warming scientist who patently called MMGW not an issue. Pulling a weapon when being confronted and defending your home during a burglary are all part of the numbers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mdrake34 said:

The poll choices say a lot about how you are looking at this.  You reeeeeeaaaaaaallllllyyyy want this guy to be either an islamic terrorist or far left terrorist. 

So much so that he's citing the opinion of the NYT.

Typical.

Optimus_Cr1m35 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Ah, NO. Defensive gun events are NOT RARE. And Kleck isn't working for any group and actual is a member of the ACLU. His work was controversial only because it didn't align with what the anti gun crowd wanted to suggest. Kinda like my favorite GT global warming scientist who patently called MMGW not an issue. Pulling a weapon when being confronted and defending your home during a burglary are all part of the numbers. 

So, show me the actual number, from the FBI as you claim.

 

Not Kleck, the FBI.

Leon Troutsky likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Optimus_Cr1m35 said:

The DoJ, and FBI found that during a 5 year period, self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. 67k a year.

 

 

Meanwhile, 280k+ guns are stolen each year. 33k are killed each year. And 81k are wounded by guns each year.

 

 

 

The DOJ and FBI didn't find that.  The Violence Policy Center found that using FBI and DOJ data.

http://www.vpc.org/press/press-release-archive/guns-are-rarely-used-to-kill-criminals-or-stop-crimes-new-vpc-analysis-reveals/

Worse, the data on "self protective behaviors" is not based on FBI or DOJ data, but on a ...... wait for it ...... survey done by an outside group.

I agree with your criticism of DH using Kleck's study.  But posting a biased study of your own and glomming it off as an FBI and DOJ finding is literally doing the same thing he did, only it's cool because you agree with the VPC.

Propaganda is still propaganda.  Yours isn't better than his.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Ah, NO. Defensive gun events are NOT RARE. And Kleck isn't working for any group and actual is a member of the ACLU. His work was controversial only because it didn't align with what the anti gun crowd wanted to suggest. Kinda like my favorite GT global warming scientist who patently called MMGW not an issue. Pulling a weapon when being confronted and defending your home during a burglary are all part of the numbers. 

Even accepting Klecks average estimate of 1 million, which his evidence doesn’t support, the probability of any one person in this country being involved with a defensive gun use is below .0033.  That’s a rare event.

Go back and read my post and actually understand the point being made.  You’re treating Kleck like the God of Gun Control Studies...as you always do with sources, you exaggerate the credibility of sources that agree with you and dismiss the credibility of other sources that don’t.  

That’s your M.O.  I get it.  Just highlighting it again for other people. I’ve read Kleck’s work...been reading it for over a decade.  His methodology and statistical analysis is deeply flawed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now