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28 minutes ago, Drunken Minotaur Zebra said:

I'd argue our secondary is #1 as well. Trufant > Hargreaves and Alford > Grimes, our safeties are better too

No doubt they probably just wanted to mix it up so they wouldn't sound like a broken record putting the Falcons at 1 in every category.

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6 minutes ago, SamMills51 said:

Lol. Did they seriously put the Falcons above the Panthers' front seven?

I get that you guys now have a decent front seven, but they're nowhere near our defensive line and linebackers in terms of depth and skill all around.

 

I was surprised they put our front seven ahead of yours. I think it's just because of our youth. All of our front seven starters are 26 or under, while you guys have several over 30.

They should have had you guys first for front seven, and us first for secondary.

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6 minutes ago, Drew4719 said:

I was surprised they put our front seven ahead of yours. I think it's just because of our youth. All of our front seven starters are 26 or under, while you guys have several over 30.

They should have had you guys first for front seven, and us first for secondary.

There are only two defensive ends above 30 on our team (Peppers, Johnson). The rest (Addison, Hall, Horton) are all under 30.

All our defensive tackles are 30 years or younger (Kawann Short, Star Lotulelei, Vernon Butler, Kyle Love). Most are in their prime.

Thomas Davis is by far our oldest linebacker (34), but everyone else is young and hitting their prime/nearing it (Luke Kuechly, Shaq Thompson, David Mayo (who'd also start for another team for sure), Jared Norris (who'd also start for another team), and Jeremy Cash). Even with that, TD will split time with Shaq, so that should only better our unit overall.

The narrative that our defense is old is pretty bad. In fact, 2015 had an older overall defense than 2017 does, and everyone knows that defense was one of the top tier in the NFL. 

Edited by SamMills51
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8 minutes ago, SamMills51 said:

Lol. Did they seriously put the Falcons above the Panthers' front seven?

I get that you guys now have a decent front seven, but they're nowhere near our defensive line and linebackers in terms of depth and skill all around.

 

Or, you know, you completely overvalue panther players.

Johnson hasn't been healthy, or good , for 3 years, Addison has had one big year out of 7, lets see him do twice in a row. Davis is 34 years old with 3 knee surgeries, Thompson has one sack and one INT in two years, Peppers is 37 years old. Short had a monster year in 15, not so much in 16,  Short and Kuechley are solid, Lots more question marks than you care to acknowledge.

 

Please try to answer without 6 pages of gifs.

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24 minutes ago, falconidae said:

Or, you know, you completely overvalue panther players.

Johnson hasn't been healthy, or good , for 3 years, Addison has had one big year out of 7, lets see him do twice in a row. Davis is 34 years old with 3 knee surgeries, Thompson has one sack and one INT in two years, Peppers is 37 years old. Short had a monster year in 15, not so much in 16,  Short and Kuechley are solid, Lots more question marks than you care to acknowledge.

 

Please try to answer without 6 pages of gifs.

Without GIFs. Alright.

Since you enjoy PFF, I'll quote plenty of their resources. I'm sure you'll find that more credible than me "picking out GIFs" as you say.

Kawann Short:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-kawann-short-contract-extension-with-carolina-is-well-deserved

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-top-10-interior-defenders-set-to-hit-free-agency

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KAWANN SHORT, CAROLINA PANTHERS (87.7 OVERALL 2016 GRADE)

Short's production the past four seasons has been impressive and his ability to defend the run and disrupt the pocket rushing the passer is at a near-elite level — 21 sacks and 24 hits over the past two seasons while racking up 77 defensive stops are all top 10 marks among all interior defenders. Short has potential to break into the elite level and into the top 20 of PFF’s top 101 players.

  • Short’s run-defense grade of 85.4 ranked second among interior defenders last season.
  • His pass-rush productivity has ranked in the top 10 each of the past two seasons, with a PRP of 7.7 last year.
  • Short’s pass-rush grade of 81.2 was also in the top 10 at his position in 2016.

kawann short

Yeah. You're only kidding yourself if you honestly want to try and knock him down.

Mario Addison

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-panthers-de-addisons-big-year-should-lead-to-snap-increase

Quote
  • Addison’s career year graded out as the 16th-best edge defender in the NFL (83.6).
  • Addison was an assassin on third down, as he held the highest pass-rush productivity (which measures pressure on a per-snap basis with weighting toward sacks) of any player on third down (18.9).
  • He also held his own on other downs — his 14.1 pass-rush productivity overall was tied for the best with Cameron Wake and 7.4 run-stop percentage was 15th-best in the NFL among 4-3 defensive ends.

Mario Addison

Your argument is that "Oh but Addison only had one good year." I could argue the same thing about Vic Beasley. He's only had one good year.

In fact, here's what PFF has to say about Addison in comparison to the rest of the NFC South:

Mario Addison also had a field day against Cam Robinson on this play and this play. He's nasty as a pass rusher and shows no signs of slowing down.

Let's see if Vic Beasley and Mario Addison can build upon their one year breakout seasons. I'll agree there.

Thomas Davis

Sure, he may no longer be as young as he used to be, but he's still one of the better linebackers in the NFL. He's splitting time with Shaq Thompson (more on him later) and that should only keep both of them fresh and better.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-thomas-davis-signs-extension-through-2018

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Thomas Davis (72.7 overall grade)

Davis, 34, is entering the last year of his contract and is coming off a season where he led the Panthers in tackles, with 80. He accumulated 36 total stops, ranking third among his teammates and eighth among the league’s 4-3 outside linebacker

  • Thomas Davis ranked in the top 11 at his position five of the last eight years, with 2014 being his most outstanding season to date (90.3).
  • Davis’ coverage skills have been incredibly impressive, keeping him on the field for all three downs. This past season even at 34 years old he was one of just six linebackers to play over 1000 snaps in the NFL.
  • Screenshot-671.png

Shaq Thompson

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-best-player-under-25-years-old-at-every-defensive-position

Quote

Shaq Thompson, Carolina Panthers (85.6)

With C.J. Mosley and Jordan Hicks both turning 25 just before training camps open this summer, the pool for quality young linebackers to make this team takes something of a hit. Despite playing limited snaps through his first two seasons, no linebacker under the age of 25 has graded better on a per-snap basis than Shaq Thompson in Carolina. Thompson notched 30 defensive stops in 2016 on just 533 total snaps, and wasn’t beat for a pass longer than 22 yards all season. With an aging Thomas Davis and mild-injury concerns around Luke Kuechly, Thompson’s role should be expanding quickly.

Shaq Thompson has improved dramatically. Scoring an 85.6 grade notched him above Jones and other young linebackers and easily put him on PFF's "best players under 25."

In terms of his coverage grade specifically, it's high as well:

You're only kidding yourself if you think he's not good.

Julius Peppers

This guy has notched 7+ sacks in every NFL season. He also did really well last year.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-10-veteran-free-agents-worth-a-one-year-contract

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-julius-peppers-predicted-to-crack-carolinas-starting-lineup

Quote

Peppers notched 45 total pressures including the playoffs, and was a major part of the Packers success against the Giants in the wild card round of the playoffs, with a sack, hit, two hurries and two passes batted down at the line. Peppers can still be a very productive player in that situational role.

Peppers’ snap counts have gone down as he’s aged, but he’s still a very productive pass rusher ranking 29th among 3-4 OLB’s in Pass Rush Productivity last season (7.9).


He also ranked 23rd among all edge defenders in pass rushing grade (78.8).

In case you're wondering, here's how many sacks Julius Peppers expects himself to achieve.

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/2017/08/15/carolina-panthers-julius-peppers-2/

Quote

With the talent around him, [Julius Peppers] expects himself to gain 10 sacks and surpass Doleman on the all-time sack list. 

Not at all unreasonable. Defensive tackles are playing lights out this preseason, and so is Julius Peppers.

So yeah. Our defense is good. You're grasping straws here.

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@falconidae so what about me "overrating" Panther players again?

I could go ahead and talk about you overrate your defense. Poe is coming off one of his worst seasons in KC and has been on a steady decline the past four years. Jarrett has only had one year and really one game where he exploded. Vic Beasley also only has one year of top tier play. Takk is a rookie and you expecting him to be a monster off the bat is asking for a lot.

So yes, I do believe 100% our defense will be better than the Falcons, especially our front seven.

Edited by SamMills51
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16 minutes ago, SamMills51 said:

@falconidae so what about me "overrating" Panther players again?

I could go ahead and talk about you overrate your defense. Poe is coming off one of his worst seasons in KC and has been on a steady decline the past four years. Jarrett has only had one year and really one game where he exploded. Vic Beasley also only has one year of top tier play. Takk is a rookie and you expecting him to be a monster off the bat is asking for a lot.

So yes, I do believe 100% our defense will be better than the Falcons, especially our front seven.

If you add in the players we acquired from free agency and have several coming back from injury I think that would probably make it equal in terms of front 7 talent. If we add in Shelby, Jack Crawford, the development of Hageman, Adrian Clayborn, Upshaw, and like you stated let's wait and see with Takk, Vic, and Grady if they can produce this year as well. I also think our linebackers are no joke. Campbell, Jones, and potentially Duke could rival your linebackers for sure. I will give the edge with experience to the Panthers LB but on the stance of pure athleticism and talent? I'd say our group is right there with yours. I think this is gonna be a super fun and competitive year. May the better team win.  

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25 minutes ago, SamMills51 said:

@falconidae so what about me "overrating" Panther players again?

I could go ahead and talk about you overrate your defense. Poe is coming off one of his worst seasons in KC and has been on a steady decline the past four years. Jarrett has only had one year and really one game where he exploded. Vic Beasley also only has one year of top tier play. Takk is a rookie and you expecting him to be a monster off the bat is asking for a lot.

So yes, I do believe 100% our defense will be better than the Falcons, especially our front seven.

Beasley and Jarrett each had one very good season...out of two. And neither were bad as rookies either.

Poe, who knows yet. Coming off a down year, like Short. 

keuchly is one of few LBs in the NFL better than Jones as of now. I do hope he can stay concussion free, he is one of the good guys. T. Davis has been great, but for how long? I 

Both teams have very deep DLs, and our LBs have more athleticism and potential, while CARs are more proven and experienced.

i will take our DBs all day long.

on a side note, your posts are way too long. I am sure all the pics and fluff make more people skip them than actually read your arguments...just sayin.

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And just to add in the fact that PFF is usually very suspect in anything they do. Now that's my personal take, I do not really believe their ranking, systems, or evaluations. You're better off just doing an eye test. Even PFF said ATL had the best players in ever spot, I would take them with a grain of salt. That's my view at least. 

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1 hour ago, SamMills51 said:

Lol. Did they seriously put the Falcons above the Panthers' front seven?

I get that you guys now have a decent front seven, but they're nowhere near our defensive line and linebackers in terms of depth and skill all around.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that one, Sam I am.

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12 minutes ago, SamMills51 said:

@falconidae so what about me "overrating" Panther players again?

I could go ahead and talk about you overrate your defense. Poe is coming off one of his worst seasons in KC and has been on a steady decline the past four years. Jarrett has only had one year and really one game where he exploded. Vic Beasley also only has one year of top tier play. Takk is a rookie and you expecting him to be a monster off the bat is asking for a lot.

So yes, I do believe 100% our defense will be better than the Falcons, especially our front seven.

Sigh,asked you not to do that. I am not wading through that crap to answer you, it's just not worth it. There's more "ifs" on the panther front 7 than you admit. Biggest one is Kuechley staying healthy.

 

Watch this:

 

Poe is two years from back surgery, dropped 30 lbs and will be a rotational DL player here. In KC, he was a 350 lb NT taking up double teams and playing way too many snaps. He's also on a one year "prove it" deal, if he balls out, he gets PAID next year.

Jarrett came into his own last year, and unlike your 3 sack player from the 2015 super bowl, is dedicated to getting better.

There's no reason whatsoever for Beasley to have a drop off, may not get 15.5 sacks again, he'll be a disruptive force.

Takk doesn't have to be a monster, although I've noticed you've avoided the threads about him last couple of weeks. He just has to be productive, which his energy and quickness should ensure. You should watch the highlight videos- he has an an incredible first step and a relentlessness that will get him plays.

That's not to mention Crawford, Hageman, Clayborn and Upshaw that provide quality depth for the Dline, or the LBs and Neal.

This defense,barring injury, will be really good. They're big, fast quick and young. And really well coached.

Last  9 games of last year, including playoffs, average score going into the 4th quarter was 32-13 Falcons, that included games against Wilson, Brees, Brady, Newton, Palmer and Rodgers. See no reason for the defense to fall off.

 

See, countered all your arguments, didn't need 6 pages of crap to do it.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, falconidae said:

Sigh,asked you not to do that.

 

You asked me not to post GIFs. I posted facts from PFF, not GIFs. Countered your arguments. I can condense them later if you want.

Now, let's look at yours.

13 minutes ago, falconidae said:

 

Watch this:

 

Poe is two years from back surgery, dropped 30 lbs and will be a rotational DL player here. In KC, he was a 350 lb NT taking up double teams and playing way too many snaps. He's also on a one year "prove it" deal, if he balls out, he gets PAID next year.

Kony Ealy's in a contract year. I saw no improvement from him at New England, a supposed better place where he was even more motivated to ball out. Even with motivation, he still did bad. "Prove it" years mean nothing. As far as Poe, he has still been on a statistical decline for four years. Poe is definitely an "IF" whether you like it or not.

Jarrett came into his own last year, and unlike your 3 sack player from the 2015 super bowl, is dedicated to getting better.

Heard that storyline all last offseason about Ealy. What makes Jarrett any better than Ealy? Once again, that's not facts. That's an "IF."

There's no reason whatsoever for Beasley to have a drop off, may not get 15.5 sacks again, he'll be a disruptive force.

And there's no reason for Addison to drop off. He'll be a disruptive force. But once again, Vic Beasley only showed one year. We'll see.

Takk doesn't have to be a monster, although I've noticed you've avoided the threads about him last couple of weeks. He just has to be productive, which his energy and quickness should ensure. You should watch the highlight videos- he has an an incredible first step and a relentlessness that will get him plays.

I watch film. I don't watch highlights. Takk's got a lot to prove. Hall's balled out as well if that says anything.

That's not to mention Crawford, Hageman, Clayborn and Upshaw that provide quality depth for the Dline, or the LBs and Neal.

And for the Panthers, that's not to mention Kyle Love, Vernon Butler, Hall, Horton, Johnson, Cox (balling out in preseason) for the D-line, and our deep LB depth.

This defense,barring injury, will be really good. They're big, fast quick and young. And really well coached.

I agree. I just think they won't be better than the Panthers.

Last  9 games of last year, including playoffs, average score going into the 4th quarter was 32-13 Falcons, that included games against Wilson, Brees, Brady, Newton, Palmer and Rodgers. See no reason for the defense to fall off.

In games Bradberry was healthy in (12), only two WRs gained above 100 yards (Crabtree; big play off of a mismatch against MLB Klein that got him half his yards, and DeSean Jackson).

See, countered all your arguments, didn't need 6 pages of crap to do it.

Few evidence, mostly ifs, and a bunch of homerism. What did I even expect lol.

 

 

Edited by SamMills51
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4 minutes ago, SamMills51 said:

You asked me not to post GIFs. I posted facts from PFF, not GIFs. Countered your arguments. I can condense them later if you want.

Now, let's look at yours.

 

 You posted a wall of text, which is just disruptive to conversation. You're being a ####. You're whole response is the written equivalent of  " I know you are, but what am I?" level of retort.

You give no reason that Ealy and Jarrett are comparable and will have the same results. That's an assumption on your part with no proof. You do that ish all the time. It's a false equivalence. 

Beasley is a 3rd year player, Addison is in his 9th year, with one really good year, Beasley is in his 3rd year, with one really good year, there's no comparison there. Beasley is a rising young stud, Addison is just a guy who had a good year. First 4 years of Addisons career, he had zero sacks. Same, false equivalence.

Bradberry, the guy you claimed outplayed Julio based on 4 snaps of one game? Willing to bet you have no idea how many snaps Bradberry covered a player in any given game.

You don't watch film, you find people that agree with what you've decided is true and post their gifs. And ignore all evidence to the contrary.

You may think the Panthers are better, but you don't know, because you don't know the Falcons well enough to know that.

I'm tired of you, just going to ignore you for a month.  Not going to put you on ignore, just not going to respond to you for a month.You can consider that a victory if you wish.

 

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@falconidae Huh? So many things wrong with your argument. You don't know the Panthers well enough either, and lol at still harping on the same points that have been debunked, and doing a 360 for Falcon players.

First off, this beauty:

Quote

Jarrett came into his own last year, and unlike your 3 sack player from the 2015 super bowl, is dedicated to getting better.

And then you turn around and say this:

Quote

You give no reason that Ealy and Jarrett are comparable and will have the same results. That's an assumption on your part with no proof. You do that ish all the time. It's a false equivalence. 

You just compared Ealy and Jarrett, and now you say they're a false equivalence? I didn't know you were this bad. I just went along with what you're saying lol.

Quote

Beasley is a 3rd year player, Addison is in his 9th year, with one really good year, Beasley is in his 3rd year, with one really good year, there's no comparison there. 

Yes, there's a comparison. Both had one really good year so far. It's fair for me to claim that we'll see what they do next year. Same argument you made for Addison that only had one year. 

Addison's still just 29. He's finally found a spot on the Panthers. He still has a few years of high level play, and we're only just talking about next year. Beasley's younger, so he'll likely sustain longer success, but as I said next year's the subject, not multiple years.

So, we'll see what happens. Both will most likely be good.

Quote

you find people that agree with what you've decided is true and post their gifs. And ignore all evidence to the contrary.

I turned around, followed your no GIF rule, and posted all opinions from PFF. They weren't cherry picked stats either. You can look up the same webpages and see for yourself on their objective website.

And then you ignore said evidence and dismiss it as "too long." 

You're using the same arguments I've used against you when I noticed you ignored my evidence and continued with your same old arguments that debunked yours. 

Quote

You may think the Panthers are better, but you don't know, because you don't know the Falcons well enough to know that.

And you clearly don't know the Panthers well enough. Nobody knows for sure who's better because the 2017 season hasn't started. However, based on past evidence and statistics, Panthers are more likely to field a better defense than the Falcons due to the fact they have more proven players.

You're pretty much the only poster I can't stand on here. You just regurgitate old arguments all the time I've already debunked a while ago, yet you act like they're facts. 

Then you go and do a 360 when talking about the Falcons with the same arguments you criticize me for. I can't stand hypocrites like you. I don't mind if you're a homer, but don't go and use arguments you criticize me for. 

I apologize to the rest of the board for the continued banter between me and the same user. I enjoy intelligent conversations, but I don't like hypocrites. 

Looks like he'll be ignoring me, so I'll be doing the same. 

Edited by SamMills51
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