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Zaphod

Why are some of y'all so mad at Kap?

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To be honest I didn't have strong feelings about kneeling before Trump said what he said. Just one of those things I didn't pay attention to. Now I kind of feel like the most American thing a person can do is exercise the right provided to you by the constitution that 'the government' is attacking. Believe it or not.....Trump is a pretty major representative of the government now.

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1 hour ago, mdrake34 said:

Conan the Contrarian, everyone. 

lol Just because you are so often wrong doesnt mean that I am unnecessarily contrary when I disagree.

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54 minutes ago, Flip Flop said:

I honestly cannot see how anyone thinks this is anything other than disrespect for the anthem.

Okay. :shrug: Athletes are protesting police violence by doing something different with their bodies than what is traditionally accepted as the right way to "respect the anthem." It's possible to see that as disrespecting the anthem. It's also possible to see it as nonviolent protest in a public space that shows that athletes have individual will separate from their expected (and clearly taken for granted) role participating in weekly displays of uncritical patriotism. Using that will to say that something is wrong and it means something to begin or participate in a dialogue about possible solutions is a more substantial display of patriotism - in saying that it's possible and worthwhile to attempt pushing that dialogue forward even in front of an audience that largely didn't expect this kind of event to challenge their beliefs like this - than simply going through the motions because Americans can't be expected to handle challenging subjects popping up in their escapism. In that sense, it'd matter that they'd kneel for the anthem because the only reason to do so is belief that it's worth the assumptions and accusations about their character and worth as professionals to be seen as part of the protest. To say that America can grow and improve, especially in Trump's America, is closer to the substance we want those displays to mean than participating in displays of patriotism co-opted by political and commercial brands to get us to accept that what comes after is inherently American and therefore substantial.

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1 minute ago, Flip Flop said:

lol Just because you are so often wrong doesnt mean that I am unnecessarily contrary when I disagree.

I honestly dont see how anyone can consider this disrespectful to the flag. You care to elaborate why you believe it is disrespectful ?  I am interested in a serious dialog btw. 

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3 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

I honestly dont see how anyone can consider this disrespectful to the flag. You care to elaborate why you believe it is disrespectful ?  I am interested in a serious dialog btw. 

He said disrespectful to the anthem, not the flag or military.  I don't agree but, it's more reasonable than saying they are disrespecting the military.

Edited by mfaulk57158
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3 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

I honestly dont see how anyone can consider this disrespectful to the flag. You care to elaborate why you believe it is disrespectful ?  I am interested in a serious dialog btw. 

Symbols ignite passion.  While symbols represent one thing in particular, they often represent a different spectrum of things to different people.  The American flag officially represents the USA, but is also represents the ideals an experiences we each hold dearest to our hearts.  

We are millions of people from many backgrounds.  Each of us have a variety of life experiences.  And all of those experiences tie together to make up what we each conceptualize is America.

The flag may represent the sacrifices our soldiers have made on the battlefields.  Or it may represent the sacrifices lawyers have made on behalf of civil rights.  Or it may represent the freedom to be who we really are.  Or it may represent a hypocrisy that promises to provide equality for all, but delivers something else.  It represents a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

We are diverse and it is understandable that we all attach different feelings to the American flag.  We are strong because we unite under one symbol.  We are divided when we insist on forcing everyone to address this symbol in the same manner.  

Burning a flag is disrespectful.  Stepping on a flag and ripping it apart is disrespectful.  These are acts of violence designed to incite anarchy.  I am not convinced that quietly kneeling during the singing of the anthem is disrespectful, though it is obvious that many do.  We need to talk about the grievances, but more importantly, we need to listen.  

I feel bad that our great nation is struggling to remain united, but I suppose it must endure times like these to exist as the beacon of freedom.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.      

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19 minutes ago, etherdome said:

Symbols ignite passion.  While symbols represent one thing in particular, they often represent a different spectrum of things to different people.  The American flag officially represents the USA, but is also represents the ideals an experiences we each hold dearest to our hearts.  

We are millions of people from many backgrounds.  Each of us have a variety of life experiences.  And all of those experiences tie together to make up what we each conceptualize is America.

The flag may represent the sacrifices our soldiers have made on the battlefields.  Or it may represent the sacrifices lawyers have made on behalf of civil rights.  Or it may represent the freedom to be who we really are.  Or it may represent a hypocrisy that promises to provide equality for all, but delivers something else.  It represents a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

We are diverse and it is understandable that we all attach different feelings to the American flag.  We are strong because we unite under one symbol.  We are divided when we insist on forcing everyone to address this symbol in the same manner.  

Burning a flag is disrespectful.  Stepping on a flag and ripping it apart is disrespectful.  These are acts of violence designed to incite anarchy.  I am not convinced that quietly kneeling during the singing of the anthem is disrespectful, though it is obvious that many do.  We need to talk about the grievances, but more importantly, we need to listen.  

I feel bad that our great nation is struggling to remain united, but I suppose it must endure times like these to exist as the beacon of freedom.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.      

lol

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55 minutes ago, etherdome said:

Symbols ignite passion.  While symbols represent one thing in particular, they often represent a different spectrum of things to different people.  The American flag officially represents the USA, but is also represents the ideals an experiences we each hold dearest to our hearts. 

Taking a knee is not disrespectful. Chewing gum, walking around, spitting during the Anthem. That's Disrespectful. Don't let your innate racism blind you to reality.

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8 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

I honestly dont see how anyone can consider this disrespectful to the flag. You care to elaborate why you believe it is disrespectful ?  I am interested in a serious dialog btw. 

 

4 hours ago, mfaulk57158 said:

He said disrespectful to the anthem, not the flag or military.  I don't agree but, it's more reasonable than saying they are disrespecting the military.

It is disrespectful to the flag and the anthem.  Essentially it is hijacking a small ceremony in honor of the flag and all that it represents.  To intentionally take that opportunity to make your own statement is disrespectful.  That is true in general.  In this instance it is explicit. This is all in solidarity with Colin Kaepernick and his protest.  

"I am not going to stand up and show pride in  flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." -CK

That is the genesis of this protest. It is literally refusing to show respect for the flag.

The flag does not stand for oppression or racism.  It stands for liberty and self determination among other things. Taking the moment of time set aside to pay respect for the flag to serve your own purpose is disrespectful.

Edited by Flip Flop
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37 minutes ago, Flip Flop said:

 

It is disrespectful to the flag and the anthem.  Essentially it is hijacking a small ceremony in honor of the flag and all that it represents.  To intentionally take that opportunity to make your own statement is disrespectful.  That is true in general.  In this instance it is explicit. This is all in solidarity with Colin Kaepernick and his protest.  

"I am not going to stand up and show pride in  flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." -CK

That is the genesis of this protest. It is literally refusing to show respect for the flag.

The flag does not stand for oppression or racism.  It stands for liberty and self determination among other things. Taking the moment of time set aside to pay respect for the flag to serve your own purpose is disrespectful.

I don't care how anyone decides to go about what they feel is right. Not in this, but no one that I know of actually see the American flag or anthem as "oppressive". They are still protesting injustices, racism, prejudice, whoever-phobia, and other issues important to them. I know some vets who are offended. I know some who are doing the same. Me? No one's business actually, but that's my way and my personal protest to everyone at this point. No one I know of though is personally trying to say the flag, or anthem is the oppressor.

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1 hour ago, Flip Flop said:

 

It is disrespectful to the flag and the anthem.  Essentially it is hijacking a small ceremony in honor of the flag and all that it represents.  To intentionally take that opportunity to make your own statement is disrespectful.  That is true in general.  In this instance it is explicit. This is all in solidarity with Colin Kaepernick and his protest.  

"I am not going to stand up and show pride in  flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." -CK

That is the genesis of this protest. It is literally refusing to show respect for the flag.

The flag does not stand for oppression or racism.  It stands for liberty and self determination among other things. Taking the moment of time set aside to pay respect for the flag to serve your own purpose is disrespectful.

FYI, displaying the flag like they do at these anthem ceremonies violates the flag code. You can find it under the section called, "Respect for flag."

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26 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

FYI, displaying the flag like they do at these anthem ceremonies violates the flag code. You can find it under the section called, "Respect for flag."

GTFO  You mean this code.

)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1)when the flag is displayed—
(A)
individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B)
members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C)
all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2)
when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

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1 hour ago, Flip Flop said:

 

It is disrespectful to the flag and the anthem.  Essentially it is hijacking a small ceremony in honor of the flag and all that it represents.  To intentionally take that opportunity to make your own statement is disrespectful.  That is true in general.  In this instance it is explicit. This is all in solidarity with Colin Kaepernick and his protest.  

"I am not going to stand up and show pride in  flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." -CK

That is the genesis of this protest. It is literally refusing to show respect for the flag.

The flag does not stand for oppression or racism.  It stands for liberty and self determination among other things. Taking the moment of time set aside to pay respect for the flag to serve your own purpose is disrespectful.

Oh, well, that's a stupid argument.

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5 minutes ago, Flip Flop said:

GTFO  You mean this code.

)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1)when the flag is displayed—
(A)
individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B)
members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C)
all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2)
when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8

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******* SPORT PLAERS NEED TO RESPEK DA FLAG CODE N TROPS

Washington-Nationals-4th-of-July-Cap-201

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

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3 minutes ago, The Great American said:

Where in the world would you find a pole that's tall enough for that flag?    

That's the question I ask every time they pull out the football field-size flag right before they start the football game.

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I think this about sums up the sides of the debate:

Addresses why the protests are happening and what they want to happen to fix the issues.

I BET YOU'D RESPECK DA FLAG AND TROOPS IF WE WAS GETTING NUKED

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