xs and os Let's Talk About: Something I Didn't Like Vs. Miami (run fits)

[PeytonMannings Forehead]

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before but run fits are just about my favorite thing about defensive football.  They don't take any particular skill or talent.  They're about want-to.  They're about personal responsibility and teamwork.  I do my job.  I get my gap, I play my leverage and I trust that the man next to me is going to do the same.  It ain't on me to be no hero, or make a play if it's not there.  If I do try to play hero ball and get out of my gap then the whole thing falls apart.  

In that way run fits are really the essence of football and Thursday night I saw some good and some bad.  I'll get to the good in another thread.  Right now I want to take a look at the bad.

 

1st Quarter.  Miami has the ball at their own 49.  It's 3rd and 1.

Offense: Miami is in a jumbo formation, or 13 personnel.  1 back, 3 tight ends.  Very good short yard set to be in.  Now I'm not 100% sure the play they ran.  The initial movement looked like an inside zone type of play, but the blocking looked so funky and the playside guard came off the ball so awkward like he was looking to pull in a sort of Power-G run, but he didn't find anyone to block, but whatever.  The play isn't so important here. 

Defense: Now this is the part that is important.  Take a look at the defensive front.  Atlanta comes out in what's called -- well I've heard it called a few names -- but for the purposes of this thread I'll call it by the name I know best -- 4-3 Over Open.  Take a second and take a good look at the pic.  Poe is playing the 3-tech to the strong side making it an Over front.  Campbell is set to the weak or OPEN side of the formation.  Hence 4-3 Over Open.  Any of my Madden players out there you'll find this formation in any 4-3 playbook labelled simply 4-3 Over.

Everybody still with me so far?  Good because I'm going to get a little chatty with this pic.  Now I'm not a huge fan of this front, especially against 3 tight ends.  There are a couple of other fronts I like better vs. this formation, but I won't bore you.  The 4-3 Open front I really like at lower levels, especially vs. teams that run a lot of veer option and reverse pivots with the QB; a team like Georgia Tech for example.  BUT this is a front that I see used a lot vs. 3 tight end sets around the NFL, so what do I know.

Run Fits: Before I get started I just want to point out that TRU AND RICO DO NOT HAVE A FIT in this coverage!  So, I'm not even going to discuss them.

Okay now this is where this deal can get kind of complicated, because run fits can be kind of proprietory at the NFL level.  Coordinators like to put their own tweaks on them and for good reason.  You'll get eating alive by offensive line coaches if you don't.  Here (in the above pic), most of it is pretty straightforward... the one thing that is unique that I really like is Poe who is playing the 3 tech slants into the strong side A gap, instead of charging straight ahead into the B which he is in front of.  Now I don't think he just decided to do that on his own but (he may have) I do know that it totally confused the blocking scheme and almost blew up the play.

Now this is the part that had me confused and made it difficult for me to tell who messed, but somebody clearly did.  Brooks Reed is playing the strong side defensive end to the left of the picture and he's head up on the tight end.  Usually, this indicates a two gap assignment, which would make total sense considering what Poe did.  Instead, this is what happens...

 

 

Reed comes of the ball and engages the tight end with his OUTSIDE ARM FREE.  This indicates that he is a contain player responsible for not letting the ball get outside and #20, the Strong Safety is supposed to come down and play the cutback lane.  But the play is going weak so we're still in good shape.

 

Poe is totally awesome here.  Don't have any other word to describe it.  Just incredible quickness and agility to beat the guard across his face and penetrate.  Everything to the weakside where the play is going is still being played perfectly.  Shelby is commanding a double team.  Campbell has the D gap. Duke is clean to the runner.  BUT take a look to the left side.  That's where the problem is starting to form.  Brooks Reed's outside arm is no longer free.  He's dipped his head it looks like and he's starting to be turned... by a tight end no less.

 

The running back gets the hand-off.  Poe is right in his face... once again, Poe just whips him.   #20 Neasman is coming down to fill the cutback.

 

This right here is where it all goes wrong.  Poe doesn't make the play, but I'm actually okay with that.  He'll make that in the regular season.  What is concerning is what's going on with Reed and Neasman.  BOTH OF THEM ARE IN THE SAME GAP!  That is the cardinal sin of run fits.  You never, never, never, want two players to wind up in the same gap.

 

You get the point by now.  Neither Reed or Neasman has a chance  Because both defenders are playing with inside leverage, there is no more contain and the ball is free to spill outside.

 

Riley gets eaten up by a block.  Jones actually does a fairley good job coming over the top, but it's too late.  With no outside contain, he's just not making that play.

 

Now this is what it looks like in motion.  Reed goes outside, then back inside.  I don't know if he was trying to break free and chase as he say the ball going away, but it was ugly. 

This is one of those cases where I wish a coach would come out and point a finger, just for us nosey folks.  Because one of them wasn't doing their job.  If Reed was two gapping then #20 is wrong because he's supposed to be the Force Player.  If Reed had the one gap then #20 was right and it was Reed's fault for getting turned inside and losing contain.  

Not trying to assign blame here to trash a player, but to illustrate the point of how everyone has to their job right down to the smallest detail.  9 men did their job on this play.  One (maybe two) didn't, and that's all it takes to go from a 3rd down stop but a 15 yard gain and staying on the field.  

Now there was some good... some very good.  I'll get to that later.  But this right here needs to be cleaned up.  

Edited August 14, 2017 by PeytonMannings Forehead

[PeytonMannings Forehead]

Okay now here's a bit of good after all that.  Not sure it's worthy of it's own thread.  Nothing that'll ever make Sportscenter, but I have a fetish for good linebacker play and man this was really good.

This was the very next play and take a look at Deion.  Take a look at how he keeps his body perfectly square coming downhill to meet the guard.  Doesn't cross over his feet.  Doesn't overstride.  Just good quick steps which allows him to keep his base, which allows him to shock the linemen to the breast plate and get off the block.

It's subtle.  Quick hands.  #65's slow a$$ barely got a hand on him. Get off and find the ball.  Most smaller linebackers, you gotta train them to take on blocks square and not try to run around -- which winds up leaving lanes.  This is exactly how you want to do it.  

I could talk about this play all day.  Just pretty.

[ATLFalcon36]

This was the only negative I saw consistently in the game from the defense (Especially 1st team). Poe and Jarrett seemed to crash the two guards and center almost every snap, but the ends did not contain/seal the edge very well. In full speed, it looked like the entire line crashed inside, leaving the outside vulnerable multiple times. Something I think we'll clean up, and it was great how easily we crashed the middle, but gotta clean up the edges.

[NOVAFalconFan]

So Neasman the rook got confused or over-excited, or Reed the veteran was confused or out-muscled by a TE.

[PeytonMannings Forehead]

4 minutes ago, NOVAFalconFan said:

So Neasman the rook got confused or over-excited, or Reed the veteran was confused or out-muscled by a TE.

Short answer: yes... maybe.

If Reed had outside contain... which by his initial step it looks like he did because he attacked the tight end's outside shoulder, then Neasman did his job correctly.

Now if Reed has a two-gapping assignment, then Neasman got a little anxious and screwed the pooch.

It's difficult to be 100% without being in the defensive meetings, but just off of Reed's initial movement, it looked like he was trying to draw a double with the other tight end, similar to the way Shelby was being doubled on the other side, which means he was NOT supposed to come inside like that.  

[Osiruz]

40 minutes ago, FentayeJones said:

I know its impossible to know but I wonder if the play would have happened that way if Neal was in - regardless  it was a good break down once again.

Yeah it looks more like neasman took the wrong gap. 

[PeytonMannings Forehead]

1 minute ago, osiruz said:

Yeah it looks more like neasman took the wrong gap. 

The reason I really don't believe it was on Neasman was because the play is designed to go away... to the right of the pic.  Just the way fits normally work, the backside DB plays the cutback in that scenario which is exactly where he wound up.  

[HASHBROWN3]

3 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

The reason I really don't believe it was on Neasman was because the play is designed to go away... to the right of the pic.  Just the way fits normally work, the backside DB plays the cutback in that scenario which is exactly where he wound up.  

I was thinking same thing and maybe Reed wanted to veer back inside because of it. But he still has to stay home & contain anyways.  Reed might have lit up by the staff in the film room on that one.  

[jeffro2000]

Just guessing, but looks like Reed just got beat and turned and that was that.

You would rather it be a mental mistake, and it very well could've been, but looks like the TE sealed him.

Still got to love the penetration there and learn from the rest.

[Flyin' In DC]

Great breakdown of the this play. I was wondering what you thought about the fact that Miami only played one of their starting O-Lineman? Does that make this even more concerning? Or do you count it as the first real action and being over zealous to follow the play to make a play?

[Flying Falcon]

1 hour ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before but run fits are just about my favorite thing about defensive football.  They don't take any particular skill or talent.  They're about want-to.  They're about personal responsibility and teamwork.  I do my job.  I get my gap, I play my leverage and I trust that the man next to me is going to do the same.  It ain't on me to be no hero, or make a play if it's not there.  If I do try to play hero ball and get out of my gap then the whole thing falls apart.  

In that way run fits are really the essence of football and Thursday night I saw some good and some bad.  I'll get to the good in another thread.  Right now I want to take a look at the bad.

 

1st Quarter.  Miami has the ball at their own 49.  It's 3rd and 1.

Offense: Miami is in a jumbo formation, or 13 personnel.  1 back, 3 tight ends.  Very good short yard set to be in.  Now I'm not 100% sure the play they ran.  The initial movement looked like an inside zone type of play, but the blocking looked so funky and the playside guard came off the ball so awkward like he was looking to pull in a sort of Power-G run, but he didn't find anyone to block, but whatever.  The play isn't so important here. 

Defense: Now this is the part that is important.  Take a look at the defensive front.  Atlanta comes out in what's called -- well I've heard it called a few names -- but for the purposes of this thread I'll call it by the name I know best -- 4-3 Over Open.  Take a second and take a good look at the pic.  Poe is playing the 3-tech to the strong side making it an Over front.  Campbell is set to the weak or OPEN side of the formation.  Hence 4-3 Over Open.  Any of my Madden players out there you'll find this formation in any 4-3 playbook labelled simply 4-3 Over.

Everybody still with me so far?  Good because I'm going to get a little chatty with this pic.  Now I'm not a huge fan of this front, especially against 3 tight ends.  There are a couple of other fronts I like better vs. this formation, but I won't bore you.  The 4-3 Open front I really like at lower levels, especially vs. teams that run a lot of veer option and reverse pivots with the QB; a team like Georgia Tech for example.  BUT this is a front that I see used a lot vs. 3 tight end sets around the NFL, so what do I know.

Run Fits: Before I get started I just want to point out that TRU AND RICO DO NOT HAVE A FIT in this coverage!  So, I'm not even going to discuss them.

Okay now this is where this deal can get kind of complicated, because run fits can be kind of proprietory at the NFL level.  Coordinators like to put their own tweaks on them and for good reason.  You'll get eating alive by offensive line coaches if you don't.  Here (in the above pic), most of it is pretty straightforward... the one thing that is unique that I really like is Poe who is playing the 3 tech slants into the strong side A gap, instead of charging straight ahead into the B which he is in front of.  Now I don't think he just decided to do that on his own but (he may have) I do know that it totally confused the blocking scheme and almost blew up the play.

Now this is the part that had me confused and made it difficult for me to tell who messed, but somebody clearly did.  Brooks Reed is playing the strong side defensive end to the left of the picture and he's head up on the tight end.  Usually, this indicates a two gap assignment, which would make total sense considering what Poe did.  Instead, this is what happens...

 

 

Reed comes of the ball and engages the tight end with his OUTSIDE ARM FREE.  This indicates that he is a contain player responsible for not letting the ball get outside and #20, the Strong Safety is supposed to come down and play the cutback lane.  But the play is going weak so we're still in good shape.

 

Poe is totally awesome here.  Don't have any other word to describe it.  Just incredible quickness and agility to beat the guard across his face and penetrate.  Everything to the weakside where the play is going is still being played perfectly.  Shelby is commanding a double team.  Campbell has the D gap. Duke is clean to the runner.  BUT take a look to the left side.  That's where the problem is starting to form.  Brooks Reed's outside arm is no longer free.  He's dipped his head it looks like and he's starting to be turned... by a tight end no less.

 

The running back gets the hand-off.  Poe is right in his face... once again, Poe just whips him.   #20 Neasman is coming down to fill the cutback.

 

This right here is where it all goes wrong.  Poe doesn't make the play, but I'm actually okay with that.  He'll make that in the regular season.  What is concerning is what's going on with Reed and Neasman.  BOTH OF THEM ARE IN THE SAME GAP!  That is the cardinal sin of run fits.  You never, never, never, want two players to wind up in the same gap.

 

You get the point by now.  Neither Reed or Neasman has a chance  Because both defenders are playing with inside leverage, there is no more contain and the ball is free to spill outside.

 

Riley gets eaten up by a block.  Jones actually does a fairley good job coming over the top, but it's too late.  With no outside contain, he's just not making that play.

 

Now this is what it looks like in motion.  Reed goes outside, then back inside.  I don't know if he was trying to break free and chase as he say the ball going away, but it was ugly. 

This is one of those cases where I wish a coach would come out and point a finger, just for us nosey folks.  Because one of them wasn't doing their job.  If Reed was two gapping then #20 is wrong because he's supposed to be the Force Player.  If Reed had the one gap then #20 was right and it was Reed's fault for getting turned inside and losing contain.  

Not trying to assign blame here to trash a player, but to illustrate the point of how everyone has to their job right down to the smallest detail.  9 men did their job on this play.  One (maybe two) didn't, and that's all it takes to go from a 3rd down stop but a 15 yard gain and staying on the field.  

Now there was some good... some very good.  I'll get to that later.  But this right here needs to be cleaned up.  

Reed screwed up. If he was playing containment, he shouldn't have let the TE turn him to the inside gap. He should have fought to stay on the TE outside shoulder and turn the RB back inside.

[PeytonMannings Forehead]

6 minutes ago, Flyin' In DC said:

Great breakdown of the this play. I was wondering what you thought about the fact that Miami only played one of their starting O-Lineman? Does that make this even more concerning? Or do you count it as the first real action and being over zealous to follow the play to make a play?

It looked like a lot of first-real action-over-excitment.  I saw Duke overrun a play on that same drive.  I saw him get sucked up on a play action.  Defense is usually ahead of the offense but you can get stuff like that when you got a defense anxious to hit the opposition for the first time after spending weeks thumping teammates.

Nothing I see that's concerning yet.  It's all small, fixable stuff.

[Jesus]

Is Poe being held there? Once he gets past the guard, hands are all over #92's back.

[DrunkOffFalcohol]

1 hour ago, NOVAFalconFan said:

So Neasman the rook got confused or over-excited, or Reed the veteran was confused or out-muscled by a TE.

Neasman is not a rookie bro, just a bad play by a veteran 

Edited August 14, 2017 by DrunkOffFalcohol

[brewman]

I think it was on this same play pre-snap Neasman stepped up to Reed, and appeared to give him some direction.  If it was this play perhaps there was a communication issue.

[PeytonMannings Forehead]

Here's another thing to add to the discussion.  Coverage dictates run fits.  The only system I know of where they are totally independent is down at TCU with Gary Patterson's defense.  All other's out there, the fits are dictated by the coverage call.

If you're playing a Cover-2 for example, the two safeties do not have a run fit, but the cornerbacks do.  In that case, they are both going to be Force defenders, meaning if the ball comes to them they have to force the ball back inside to the pursuit.

In Cover-3 which we play, the corners do not have a run fit, but the safety does.  If it is Cover-3 Buzz, then one of the backers is going to be the Force defender.  If the call is Sky (Cover-3 Sky) then the Safety is the Force.  Just from that alignment and with the safety being down in the box, it looks like Cover-3 Sky...

... which means the Safety is playing Force if the run it to his side, and looking to fill backside if the ball goes away.

[kiwifalcon]

1 hour ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

The reason I really don't believe it was on Neasman was because the play is designed to go away... to the right of the pic.  Just the way fits normally work, the backside DB plays the cutback in that scenario which is exactly where he wound up.  

For me that play is on Reed even if he was 2 gapping I think the play the way it panned out was to force the run inside where we can get numbers to the ball.

Neasemans still relatively new to this so I believe having to make his reads as simple as possible makes his job easier.

To me Reeds the guy at fault.

[RichardCNile]

Great post... as usual.  I also rewatched that play several times and couldn't tell who was responsible for contain, but it's obvious contain was lost.  It's actually good to see that stuff in pre-season so they can get it cleaned up.  

Otherwise I was really impressed with the entire defense (1's and 2's) Poe and GJ were 1-2 yrds deep in the backfield on most every run play.  

 

[red falcon]

As peyton said to me it looks like brooks initially to me was set to contain the play and moved away from his initial assignment. 

I'm not blown away by Reed, he is kind of underwhelming to me. Don't know how anyone could say it looks like the safeties fault contain wise with reed's initial step 

Edited August 14, 2017 by red falcon

[hjerry]

I couldn't understand in another thread when someone said that they were dissapointed in Poe in this game.

Him and Jarrett are going to be absolutely dominant by each other.

[ATLSlobberKnockers]

3 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before but run fits are just about my favorite thing about defensive football.  They don't take any particular skill or talent.  They're about want-to.  They're about personal responsibility and teamwork.  I do my job.  I get my gap, I play my leverage and I trust that the man next to me is going to do the same.  It ain't on me to be no hero, or make a play if it's not there.  If I do try to play hero ball and get out of my gap then the whole thing falls apart.  

In that way run fits are really the essence of football and Thursday night I saw some good and some bad.  I'll get to the good in another thread.  Right now I want to take a look at the bad.

 

1st Quarter.  Miami has the ball at their own 49.  It's 3rd and 1.

Offense: Miami is in a jumbo formation, or 13 personnel.  1 back, 3 tight ends.  Very good short yard set to be in.  Now I'm not 100% sure the play they ran.  The initial movement looked like an inside zone type of play, but the blocking looked so funky and the playside guard came off the ball so awkward like he was looking to pull in a sort of Power-G run, but he didn't find anyone to block, but whatever.  The play isn't so important here. 

Defense: Now this is the part that is important.  Take a look at the defensive front.  Atlanta comes out in what's called -- well I've heard it called a few names -- but for the purposes of this thread I'll call it by the name I know best -- 4-3 Over Open.  Take a second and take a good look at the pic.  Poe is playing the 3-tech to the strong side making it an Over front.  Campbell is set to the weak or OPEN side of the formation.  Hence 4-3 Over Open.  Any of my Madden players out there you'll find this formation in any 4-3 playbook labelled simply 4-3 Over.

Everybody still with me so far?  Good because I'm going to get a little chatty with this pic.  Now I'm not a huge fan of this front, especially against 3 tight ends.  There are a couple of other fronts I like better vs. this formation, but I won't bore you.  The 4-3 Open front I really like at lower levels, especially vs. teams that run a lot of veer option and reverse pivots with the QB; a team like Georgia Tech for example.  BUT this is a front that I see used a lot vs. 3 tight end sets around the NFL, so what do I know.

Run Fits: Before I get started I just want to point out that TRU AND RICO DO NOT HAVE A FIT in this coverage!  So, I'm not even going to discuss them.

Okay now this is where this deal can get kind of complicated, because run fits can be kind of proprietory at the NFL level.  Coordinators like to put their own tweaks on them and for good reason.  You'll get eating alive by offensive line coaches if you don't.  Here (in the above pic), most of it is pretty straightforward... the one thing that is unique that I really like is Poe who is playing the 3 tech slants into the strong side A gap, instead of charging straight ahead into the B which he is in front of.  Now I don't think he just decided to do that on his own but (he may have) I do know that it totally confused the blocking scheme and almost blew up the play.

Now this is the part that had me confused and made it difficult for me to tell who messed, but somebody clearly did.  Brooks Reed is playing the strong side defensive end to the left of the picture and he's head up on the tight end.  Usually, this indicates a two gap assignment, which would make total sense considering what Poe did.  Instead, this is what happens...

 

 

Reed comes of the ball and engages the tight end with his OUTSIDE ARM FREE.  This indicates that he is a contain player responsible for not letting the ball get outside and #20, the Strong Safety is supposed to come down and play the cutback lane.  But the play is going weak so we're still in good shape.

 

Poe is totally awesome here.  Don't have any other word to describe it.  Just incredible quickness and agility to beat the guard across his face and penetrate.  Everything to the weakside where the play is going is still being played perfectly.  Shelby is commanding a double team.  Campbell has the D gap. Duke is clean to the runner.  BUT take a look to the left side.  That's where the problem is starting to form.  Brooks Reed's outside arm is no longer free.  He's dipped his head it looks like and he's starting to be turned... by a tight end no less.

 

The running back gets the hand-off.  Poe is right in his face... once again, Poe just whips him.   #20 Neasman is coming down to fill the cutback.

 

This right here is where it all goes wrong.  Poe doesn't make the play, but I'm actually okay with that.  He'll make that in the regular season.  What is concerning is what's going on with Reed and Neasman.  BOTH OF THEM ARE IN THE SAME GAP!  That is the cardinal sin of run fits.  You never, never, never, want two players to wind up in the same gap.

 

You get the point by now.  Neither Reed or Neasman has a chance  Because both defenders are playing with inside leverage, there is no more contain and the ball is free to spill outside.

 

Riley gets eaten up by a block.  Jones actually does a fairley good job coming over the top, but it's too late.  With no outside contain, he's just not making that play.

 

Now this is what it looks like in motion.  Reed goes outside, then back inside.  I don't know if he was trying to break free and chase as he say the ball going away, but it was ugly. 

This is one of those cases where I wish a coach would come out and point a finger, just for us nosey folks.  Because one of them wasn't doing their job.  If Reed was two gapping then #20 is wrong because he's supposed to be the Force Player.  If Reed had the one gap then #20 was right and it was Reed's fault for getting turned inside and losing contain.  

Not trying to assign blame here to trash a player, but to illustrate the point of how everyone has to their job right down to the smallest detail.  9 men did their job on this play.  One (maybe two) didn't, and that's all it takes to go from a 3rd down stop but a 15 yard gain and staying on the field.  

Now there was some good... some very good.  I'll get to that later.  But this right here needs to be cleaned up.  

Reed steps outside then tries to step inside, and gets manhandled by the TE. I see what your saying and imo Reed had contain to the outside and Neasman was where he was supposed to be, and had a chance to either make a tackle or at the least slow the rb down. Absolutely horrible by Reed, and the reason why their are preseason games. Great breakdown from a extremely knowledgeable poster.

[Tim Mazetti]

4 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Okay now this is where this deal can get kind of complicated, because run fits can be kind of proprietory at the NFL level.  Coordinators like to put their own tweaks on them and for good reason.  

[Tim Mazetti]

3 hours ago, NOVAFalconFan said:

So Neasman the rook got confused or over-excited, or Reed the veteran was confused or out-muscled by a TE.

No rook.

[papachaz]

3 hours ago, hjerry said:

I couldn't understand in another thread when someone said that they were dissapointed in Poe in this game.

Him and Jarrett are going to be absolutely dominant by each other.

that really depends on who said that in the other thread, and no I'm not trying to be a butthead about it. it just comes naturally, I don't have to try 

[Razrtalons]

I really feel like it was a mental error by reed. It looks like he starts with outside contain. The rb seems to make a small attempt at misdirection to the other side and maybe that's what reed sees and once he changes position the te has leverage.