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What nobody is talking about with Takks skill set


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16 minutes ago, gazoo said:

You guys might be right about him being our new LEO,  but I wonder why Quinn didn't say he was going to play LEO if this is the case.

 When Beasley was drafted I recall Quinn say he would play the Leo position, then he moved him to Sam

Also, Quinn moves all these guys around so much maybe he hasn't even determined yet how camp will shake out.

yesterday during the press conference DQ was saying let's get him in here to see what he's all about. Get him started.

 

So maybe not everything has been determined as far as where he'll play.

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13 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

My recommendation to people struggling with what a LEO is, is to read Bill Walsh's autobiography. Seifort came up with the EE or Elephant End, which is exactly what you described. Carroll worked on Seiferts staff and created his own version and called it LEO. It's a name for a designated pass rusher (who must be disruptive against the run) in sub package. Fred Dean was the first one in Frisco. KGB was the EE for Donatell in Green Bay.

Carroll of course worked with Kiffen, too. You see Seifert and Kiffens influences in the defense that DQ was tutored in. A marriage of 34 principles (2 gap) and 43 zone based defensive schemes. Simple and effective 

youre right it's like a 34 OLB/DE and he must be athletic and fast in space. What's so awesome about reading Walsh's autobiography I found out how the wide 9 came into fruition. Seifert took his fastest edge guys, created a "Jets" package of two speedsters out wide and they pinned their ears back and rushed the passer. Carroll flexed out guys like Beasley and Takk out wide as well

I think many thought it meant "Left End." I dud the know before reading Walsh's books, and following Seifert and kiffen abd Carroll over the years

 

I need to read his book but I grew up in San Francisco so I used to hear him talk about this stuff as a little kid. Didn't know what all of it meant but as I started playing football and learning more about the game it made sense. But yea I saw that show 1st hand. Was a little too young when they won the 1st SB but by the second one I was starting to understand some things. 

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Just now, TheFatboi said:

I need to read his book but I grew up in San Francisco so I used to hear him talk about this stuff as a little kid. Didn't know what all of it meant but as I started playing football and learning more about the game it made sense. But yea I saw that show 1st hand. Was a little too young when they won the 1st SB but by the second one I was starting to understand some things. 

As much as you love football, you'll love his book. He's got three that I've read "Finding the winning edge" and "Genius" and "The Score takes care of itself" My favorite is "Genius."

What's cool about the "Genius" is that you realize how brilliant, yet unnoticed, George Seifert was. I mean they got a chain-smoking, old arse and out of shape but athletic Fred Dean and created packages for him! Nuts!

And, Walsh's lineage of coaches both offensive and defensive is literally incredible. Can you imagine a staff with George Seifert and a young Pete Carroll? And how about Pete Carroll and Monte Kiffen with the Jets later on?

On another note, i like how DQ is putting his own wrinkles into his defense. It's the Carroll blueprint, but he has his own concepts on coverage and blitzing which i find fascinating.

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17 minutes ago, TheFatboi said:

He's gonna play both. The LEO usually plays both DE in nickel and LEO in 4-3 under. Beasley played both his rookie year. Weighing 250 he's a perfect blend to play both. If he adds another 5 pounds he'll weigh as much as Reed who also played LEO AND DE last season. Especially in the playoffs. Quinn isn't gonna specify yet but I can see him as the perfect LEO/DE. And he proabablu hasn't specified because he still has to beat out Reed for the job. But typically a guy that would play rush OLB in a 3-4 is a LEO in our system. 

I'll add that I don't expect him to play a lot in base. So really he'll play nickel DE. 

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Just now, TheFatboi said:

Assuming he doesn't beat out Reed yes. There will be a battle for it tho. 

No doubt. But Reed is better than he gets credit for. 

My clue is when Quinn said he'd play DE, he also said he'd be rushing the passer. The LEO primarily does that in base, but it sounded like he meant a pass rush specialist (for his first season). Someone who comes on for passing downs. 

I see him being our LEO by next season. And he'll play there this season. But I think he backs up in base this year. 

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6 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

No doubt. But Reed is better than he gets credit for. 

My clue is when Quinn said he'd play DE, he also said he'd be rushing the passer. The LEO primarily does that in base, but it sounded like he meant a pass rush specialist (for his first season). Someone who comes on for passing downs. 

I see him being our LEO by next season. And he'll play there this season. But I think he backs up in base this year. 

Reed is a guy I've defended so I give him his credit. There were guys that didn't think Debo and Campbell would beat out worrilow and spoon. Not saying McKinley will but there will be a battle. It's the Quinn way. The LEO plays both as you already know and I'm not saying he will start this season either. I just think he's the new LEO. Not n necessarily the starter this year. I never said he'd start but he will battle reed. That I'm sure of. And he'll be in the nickel rush rotation with clayborn and Reed. 

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44 minutes ago, rudy said:

yesterday during the press conference DQ was saying let's get him in here to see what he's all about. Get him started.

 

So maybe not everything has been determined as far as where he'll play.

I think this is probably the source of the confusion. When we drafted Beasley I recall Dan saying he was going to play LEO.  

Yet, he is saying McKinley is going to play DE instead of more specifically saying he will play LEO.

Thus, it very well could be Quinn hasn't cemented in his role yet until camp but  I have no doubt McKinley and Beasley will still move around a lot irrespective of what title they have.

Regarding Brooks Reed, he beasties in the playoffs and I agree with those saying he's better than most fans realize. It could be DQ finds a place for all 3 of these guys on field at same time in passing situations.

 

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52 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I'll add that I don't expect him to play a lot in base. So really he'll play nickel DE. 

I think it's an interesting situation. There is no question that he was brought here to primarily rush the passer. The unique thing about him is he's already very good against the run but raw in rushing the passer.

Thus, what is the best way to use him as we develop his pass rush? an argument can be made either way. Allow him to get playing time on early downs as he hones his pass rush skills, or, just stick him out there in passing situations. Again, with DQ the answer probably lies somewhere in between, according to matchups as he develops.

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1 hour ago, TheFatboi said:

He's gonna play both. The LEO usually plays both DE in nickel and LEO in 4-3 under. Beasley played both his rookie year. Weighing 250 he's a perfect blend to play both. If he adds another 5 pounds he'll weigh as much as Reed who also played LEO AND DE last season. Especially in the playoffs. Quinn isn't gonna specify yet but I can see him as the perfect LEO/DE. And he proabablu hasn't specified because he still has to beat out Reed for the job. But typically a guy that would play rush OLB in a 3-4 is a LEO in our system. 

That was something I hadn't considered but certainly could be a reason he wouldn't specifify.

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1 hour ago, JDaveG said:

I'll add that I don't expect him to play a lot in base. So really he'll play nickel DE. 

This. ^

1 hour ago, TheFatboi said:

Assuming he doesn't beat out Reed yes. There will be a battle for it tho. 

I don't think it's a question of him beating out Reed. Nobody along the DL plays 100% of the snaps. We need a rotation, and Quinn has obviously used a heavy one since he's been here. Heck, as an EDGE rusher (which we all know consists of the LEO and nickel DE's) Beasley led the team in snaps with 60%.

The only other person to play more than that was Shelby before he got hurt, but he was primarily used as a nickel DT up to that point. Brooks Reed only played 38%, and that is even after the injuries we suffered on the DL. He played LEO for almost all of the 30% of the games we played in base defense; which means he played around 8% at nickel DE in the 70% of the games we spent in the nickel package. Clayborn played 52.5%, mostly at nickel DE, and Freeney played 37.4%, again mostly at nickel DE.

As a rookie, I would expect Takk to log somewhere between 35 to 50% of our snaps. Beasley got right at 50% of our snaps his rookie year, but as a #8 overall draft pick. Rookies just aren't used to the heavy workload of the NFL since college plays less games per year and less snaps per season. Those guys have to ramp up their playing time over a few years, at least they usually do.

The question then becomes two-fold: where does Takk fit best in the rotation, and where does Reed fit best in the rotation? That's the big question, and I'm not sure even Quinn knows the answer to that yet. I will say that I don't think Reed is a very effective nickel DE. He's not really an explosive outside edge rusher - even though he played much better than expected during our playoff run. But he's more of a really good run stopper that has a little bit of pass rush as well. In a perfect world I don't think Reed would be on this roster, but his contract dictates we kind of have to try and get some usage out of him.

Takk on the other hand should develop into a really good outside pass rusher. If this was his 2nd or 3rd season I don't think there is any doubt he would be much better as a nickel DE and just leave Reed at LEO. But this is Takk's rookie year, coming from an offseason where he wont be able to work out hard and get to full strength, and also where he is still extremely raw as a pass rusher. That complicates matters. So we'll see how Quinn wants to rotate these guys once the season starts I guess. But I think it's more likely Reed stays as the LEO and a little bit of a nickel DE, and Takk is used more as a nickel DE this year.

 

An interesting aside -- we all know defenses are constantly evolving. I've often wondered lately if Quinn is evolving his D-Line rotations from how he viewed them at Seattle, due to the increasing amount of nickel packages. Obviously the nickel package we play 70% of the game is now the priority for filling with your best pass rushing players. Those pass rushers don't even play the full 70% of the snaps we play in nickel because they need so much rotation. Consequently, the guys playing in the 30% of base personnel are your weaker pass rushers that are stronger in the run game, obviously. I know in a perfect world we want a LEO that is a hair-on-fire pass rusher, but my description from the previous sentence seems to fit Reed more in this imperfect world.

But what's really interesting to me is Quinn has pretty much refused to play the much bigger and better run defending Clayborn as his LEO. Clayborn has pretty much been a nickel player. That makes me wonder if Quinn wants a bigger edge rusher in some nickel sets, or if he's just using the personnel he has in the best manner possible? What I mean by that is, Clayborn is a better pass rusher than Reed. Is that why he's playing nickel DE, or is it due to his bigger size helping out in the run game a little more in the typically undersized nickel D-Line rotation? That's something I'll be keeping an eye on as we end up replacing Clayborn in the future: and where we use Takk.

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3 hours ago, Reggie_Kelly said:

Idk.. Garrett Bolles pretty much owned him when they faced off and was only able to get clean up sacks. 

 

Maybe he shuts me up Like Jones did.

Um....

INDIANAPOLIS — On Thursday, Utah OT Garett Bolles said that UCLA pass rusher Takkarist McKinley was the best opponent he ever faced. 

Here’s what he said about facing off against McKinley:

“I give all the credit to him,” Bolles said. “He’s a great competitor. He’s a great person. He does everything right. That’s what a coach wants. I believe he’s a Top 10 pick in this year’s draft, or one of the best defensive linemen in this draft. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Summerhill said:

Respectfully, I think he is only being drafted for how he can rush the passer. At 250 lbs, I don't think he has what it takes to be much of a factor against the run as a down lineman. 

Respectfully, I think you should watch him, because he's incredible against the run for his size. 

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4 hours ago, gazoo said:

He doesn't appear to have anywhere near the kind of natural bend Beasley has for getting around the tackle as a pass rusher, but coaches won't have any problem teaching him to drop his shoulders a little as he is closing in on a tackle. 

I do think your observation is astute.....I was noticing that as well but it concerned me more him getting around the edge against NFL caliber OTs.

I do know TD and Quinn break down film of specific plays in how they plan on playing him here and they know what works and what doesn't so I'm comforted from that standpoint.

I don't think Takk will ever be able to get around the edge like Beasley.  They are different players.  Takk is much less predictable.  To relate it to fighting, I see Beasley as the polished martial artist whereas Takk is a pit fighter.  Takk is powerful and chaotic while doing a very good job of constantly moving towards the ball.  He can push his man straight backwards and does not give up on the play ever.  Beasley on the other hand seems pretty premeditated on what he'll try to do, and it always involves trying to get around someone--which is why he's great in stunts. But if his plan doesn't work he has the tendency to give up on the play.  

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I do wonder what this means for brooks reed this yr. I wonder if we see him more at LB. I think he is safe this yr bc he is great depth. plus he wasnt great at rushing the passer but against the run he was more than solid. this is the first time in yrs (maybe decades) that we got legit starters and back ups across the defensive line. All I really want now is a legit FS and I will be happy with all of the defense. I love debo, and campbell. Ish, and brooks reed are solid lbs, ( I do hope we get another legit vet even if its spoon again for 6 games) All of our Dbs are legit starters, but we do have some holes at safety. who are the back ups and we need a true FS.

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2 hours ago, TheFatboi said:

Reed is a guy I've defended so I give him his credit. There were guys that didn't think Debo and Campbell would beat out worrilow and spoon. Not saying McKinley will but there will be a battle. It's the Quinn way. The LEO plays both as you already know and I'm not saying he will start this season either. I just think he's the new LEO. Not n necessarily the starter this year. I never said he'd start but he will battle reed. That I'm sure of. And he'll be in the nickel rush rotation with clayborn and Reed. 

Tbh I don't think Campbell beat out Spoon - injury did. I thought Spoon was playing great footy before his injury and Campbell never exceeded his play imho. Not to say he won't this year but Spoon was a huge loss. However it did help fast forward Campbell's development 

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5 minutes ago, jdawg4876 said:

I heard a couple of people compare tak to ray edwards, and im sure it was meant to be a diss, but folks forget as a complementary piece with the vikings ray edwards was avg like 8 sacks a yr I will take that all day every day with tak.

Edwards was 273 lbs coming out. If you're going to compare McKinley to a Purdue linemen, Cliff Avril is a lot more similar physically. 

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4 minutes ago, primetime said:

Tbh I don't think Campbell beat out Spoon - injury did. I thought Spoon was playing great footy before his injury and Campbell never exceeded his play imho. Not to say he won't this year but Spoon was a huge loss. However it did help fast forward Campbell's development 

I think you are right although it was close, spoon has always been a solid LB he does lack a little speed, but his only true problem is he cantstay healthy he is a solid B+ LB

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