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A Primer on Polarization in American Politics.


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5 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

I see the argument that the left is "radicalizing" now in the same way that the Tea Party was radicalizing in 2010. The reactions are pretty similar. 

The notion that Obama made some extreme push left is very questionable. He was a center-left politician. There's no support for suggestions otherwise. In fact, if we REALLY got into it, there's a stronger argument that was too far right on a number of issues. 

Abortion isn't "radical" at all. Complex and difficult? Absolutely. 

Obama was a far leftist in many of his views, but he was center-left when in came to implementing policy.

He believed (correctly) that the opposition for change would be too great to overcome, so he compromised. In the end, it didn't matter since both sides hated him anyway for being too weak to follow through.

 

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Just now, Doozer said:

This seems to be the go-to response for many on the left. Their "movement" is peaceful and tolerant- except for those other guys who say they're liberals, but aren't really part of the group.

BLM is mostly peaceful

Occupy is mostly legal

Feminists are mostly tolerant.

Well you could be encountering that issue because you're trying to go from loose associations having similar political views down to smaller populations of individuals. Any population is going to have individual variation to some degree. 

I'm sure there are people who do illegal things that would call themselves liberals. Just as there have been conservative folks who do illegal things. However, unless the group you are discussing has formally (to whatever extent possible) advocated for illegal action, it's improper to ascribe those things to them. 

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4 minutes ago, Worzone said:

Depends on how you define radical I guess

Killing 59 million infants

Promoting flag burning 

Creating mass govt dependence 

Globalism

Fast and the Furious scandal 

Devil worship in Hilarys Campaign team

Attempting to Redefine genders

The entire ACLU

The anti religious rhetoric 

Wanting to destroy the 2nd ammendment 

Refusing to go to Presidental Inaugurations

Being anti police 

Being anti military

Rejecting Capitalism in favor of socialism and communism 

I could keep on going but i wont.

It's remarkable how good a job the RW media has done at creating a field of scarecrows for you to fear.

Horrifying in many ways, but still remarkable.  

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2 minutes ago, Worzone said:

To you it isnt. To anyone with any moral compass it is. Slavery wasnt radical to slave owners. Abortion isnt radical to those indoctrinated into seeing them as less than human

Yeah, we aren't going into this again. If you need a refresher, you can rewind to last week. You're simply wrong. Not on wrong on being anti-abortion (thats totally your choice) but entirely incorrect on your narrative and high-horse moral compassing. 

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4 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Well you could be encountering that issue because you're trying to go from loose associations having similar political views down to smaller populations of individuals. Any population is going to have individual variation to some degree. 

I'm sure there are people who do illegal things that would call themselves liberals. Just as there have been conservative folks who do illegal things. However, unless the group you are discussing has formally (to whatever extent possible) advocated for illegal action, it's improper to ascribe those things to them. 

They majority aren't denouncing their actions either. Only a few may be doing the damage, but the debate among the left is still whether their actions are justified. Just look at the reaction to the Berkeley riot. The focus from the media hasn't been on the property damage, but whether it's justified to prevent "hate speech." (a new term)
There's a reason the media is using the term "forceful Protest". They're trying to normalize radical behavior.

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Just now, Worzone said:

Im not incorrect.  It's not on a high horse. Theres objective right and objext wrong. Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean i dont get to call out the abhorent behavior.  But i see that is the ONLY issue you pulled out of that list

This thread is not about your personal views about a particular issue.  It's supposed to be about understanding the extent of polarization in America and the causes of it.  

"I oppose all abortion and view it as baby killing proves the left is radicalized and that explains polarization" is a weak argument.  You are injecting your personal views, not at all shared by the majority of Americans, into a claim about extremism that is not based on empirical evidence but instead your own definition of "radical" that is based on your own opinion about a contentious issue.

Most Americans don't share your view about abortion.  Most Americans are ambivalent about abortion...don't like it but also don't want it completely legal.  They support some restrictions, but overall are moderate in the sense that they don't support outright bans or abortion on demand.  Your view is an extreme view.  The abortion on demand view espoused by some liberals is also an extreme view.  The majority of Americans do not support either of those extreme views because they are not polarized and ideologically purist.

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3 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

I see the argument that the left is "radicalizing" now in the same way that the Tea Party was radicalizing in 2010. The reactions are pretty similar. 

The notion that Obama made some extreme push left is very questionable. He was a center-left politician. There's no support for suggestions otherwise. In fact, if we REALLY got into it, there's a stronger argument that was too far right on a number of issues. 

Abortion isn't "radical" at all. Complex and difficult? Absolutely. 

See that is your view after years of being told murdering children is not radical. Calling it murder is not radical because that is actually what is taking place.

On foreign policy Obama was a globalist on social issues he was very radical.

Tea Party is a good example. Yes they protested they did not burn anything down or shutdown events. They protested for the rule of law and Constitution. Obama used IRS as a weapon against them which is pretty radical. Strangely the media and elements within the Republican party were against them to the point that some they got elected betrayed them, looking at little Marco.

I'd actually argue what we see going on now was inevitable. It is the system correcting it's self. That it had drifted as left as it will get before it does correct.

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3 minutes ago, Worzone said:

Im not incorrect.  It's not on a high horse. Theres objective right and objective wrong. Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean i dont get to call out the abhorent behavior.  But i see that is the ONLY issue you pulled out of that list

I didnt pull any issues out of your list. I was responding to a specific assertion made by another poster. 

Frankly, your list was mostly nonsense. But you're entitled to nonsense, even it contributes to the problem we currently face. 

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3 minutes ago, Worzone said:

Never said it wasnt. I said it was radical

The majority of Americans do not view legal abortion with some restrictions as radical.  You are providing an example of the very ideological extremists living in their own bubbles with no recognition about the larger political reality that I am talking about in this thread.

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1 minute ago, Sobeit said:

See that is your view after years of being told murdering children is not radical. Calling it murder is not radical because that is actually what is taking place.

On foreign policy Obama was a globalist on social issues he was very radical.

Tea Party is a good example. Yes they protested they did not burn anything down or shutdown events. They protested for the rule of law and Constitution. Obama used IRS as a weapon against them which is pretty radical. Strangely the media and elements within the Republican party were against them to the point that some they got elected betrayed them, looking at little Marco.

I'd actually argue what we see going on now was inevitable. It is the system correcting it's self. That it had drifted as left as it will get before it does correct.

Same comment to you...this is not about YOUR personal opinion on abortion or any other issue.  This is about the American public and polarization...it's about other people's opinions.  Understanding this topic requires putting your personal beliefs aside and recognizing what the broader American public thinks about politics.  

The people on these boards are, by and large, composed of the "high aware" group that is very polarized.  The point that I keep trying to hammer home is that all of us are weird.  Most Americans don't think about politics the way we think about politics.  That is most important thing to recognize - that the majority of Americans disagree with ALL of us - in order to recognize the reality of polarization (and lack thereof) among the American public.

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Just now, Sobeit said:

See that is your view after years of being told murdering children is not radical. Calling it murder is not radical because that is actually what is taking place.

On foreign policy Obama was a globalist on social issues he was very radical.

Tea Party is a good example. Yes they protested they did not burn anything down or shutdown events. They protested for the rule of law and Constitution. Obama used IRS as a weapon against them which is pretty radical. Strangely the media and elements within the Republican party were against them to the point that some they got elected betrayed them, looking at little Marco.

I'd actually argue what we see going on now was inevitable. It is the system correcting it's self. That it had drifted as left as it will get before it does correct.

sigh....

 

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1 minute ago, Worzone said:

Lol "name 1 radical thing"

Heres a list of things most conservatives find radical.

Your list is nonsense, Why cant we reach conservatives

To Trout's point, your views aren't all that representative of "conservatives" at large. I've had many many productive conversations with conservatives wherein we were able to reach a common understanding and get closer together. However, those conversations cannot take place in a climate of "here's my portrayal of your positions, I dont like them, you're a radical."

So yeah. YOUR scarecrows are nonsense. 

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This country (like Europe) has been steadily going to the left for decades, then people lose their minds when it suddenly lurches right momentarily (backlash).

A very effective strategy the left has employed is to normalize radical liberal behavior. They push the public to go just a little bit further, until we've taken several steps to the left without noticing how far we've gone.

Remember when Cruel Intentions (movie) made headlines because two girls kissed? Now you're called a homophobe if you don't agree that Burt and Ernie is a gay couple.

I still remember Trout being adamant that there is no slippery slope. It wasn't happening- legalizing gay marriage does not lead to talks about legalizing incest and polygamy. -what was a new trend this year? Polyamory is normal?  

 

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Just now, Worzone said:

Echo Chamber Activated. You essentially just said 

We only want people here that agree with us. The rest of you,  your thoughts dont matter and you dont represent what we liberals think conservatives really believe. 

No, your OPINION on a political issue doesn't matter.  This thread isn't about your opinion on abortion or any other issue.  It's about polarization in American politics.  Understanding that most Americans don't share your view on abortion is a key to understanding that the American public is not, by and large, polarized on abortion or any other issue.  

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1 minute ago, Leon Troutsky said:

No, your OPINION on a political issue doesn't matter.  This thread isn't about your opinion on abortion or any other issue.  It's about polarization in American politics.  Understanding that most Americans don't share your view on abortion is a key to understanding that the American public is not, by and large, polarized on abortion or any other issue.  

Views on abortion are split pretty evenly. Did something change recently where you can claim it's no longer a polarizing issue?

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12 minutes ago, Doozer said:

They majority aren't denouncing their actions either. Only a few may be doing the damage, but the debate among the left is still whether their actions are justified. Just look at the reaction to the Berkeley riot. The focus from the media hasn't been on the property damage, but whether it's justified to prevent "hate speech." (a new term)
There's a reason the media is using the term "forceful Protest". They're trying to normalize radical behavior.

Bro, this just isnt correct. 

Here's the CNN link about Berkeley: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/us/milo-yiannopoulos-berkeley/index.html

The screen cap is a ball of fire and violence appears in the headline. 

Here's the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/us/uc-berkeley-milo-yiannopoulos-protest.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

and the lede:  A speech by the divisive right-wing writer Milo Yiannopoulos at the University of California, Berkeley, was canceled on Wednesday night after demonstrators set fires and threw objects at buildings to protest his appearance.

David Simon has been going at people on Twitter all morning about this stuff. And its important to isolate PROTESTORS from VIOLENT ACTORS. There arent many on the left suggesting that throwin molotov cocktails was a justified act. There are folks on the left saying civil disobedience in the setting of a Milo speech IS appropriate. That assertion is debatable. 

I guess I just don't understand the lengths to which people must go to satisfy your demand for denouncement. And why is that demand for denouncement not applied equally to folks on the right? 

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6 minutes ago, Doozer said:

This country (like Europe) has been steadily going to the left for decades, then people lose their minds when it suddenly lurches right momentarily (backlash).

A very effective strategy the left has employed is to normalize radical liberal behavior. They push the public to go just a little bit further, until we've taken several steps to the left without noticing how far we've gone.

Remember when Cruel Intentions (movie) made headlines because two girls kissed? Now you're called a homophobe if you don't agree that Burt and Ernie is a gay couple.

I still remember Trout being adamant that there is no slippery slope. It wasn't happening- legalizing gay marriage does not lead to talks about legalizing incest and polygamy. -what was a new trend this year? Polyamory is normal?  

 

Perhaps this is true....but here's the thing: the country moving left doesnt mean the country started at a centrist point. As such, the "shifts to the left" have largely been in the interest of getting to the center. A position of neutrality. Which is what underscores the majority of "left pushing" decisions/policies in US history. 

 

And FTR - Trout is correct about the slippery slope. That IS a fallacy. 

Incest is already codified in the laws of pretty much every state to some varying degree. That isn't something that needs to be "legalized." Polyamory IS NOT polygamy in the public policy sense of the word. If people want to develop themselves into relationships with multiple people, they can have at it assuming they have the requisite competence to consent to those relationships. Its when we start talking about legal institutions (aka marriage) that things get dicey.  

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2 minutes ago, Doozer said:

Views on abortion are split pretty evenly. Did something change recently where you can claim it's no longer a polarizing issue?

Great point.  We need to recognize that evenly divided does not mean deeply divided.  Given a choice between a banana and an orange, some people might have passionate views and some people might not care and just choose one.  Both would result in the same thing - about half choosing banana and half choosing an orange.   

It's only that very engaged/passionate 25-30% of Americans who are deeply divided on abortion.  The rest of Americans can be called ambivalent...they "agree" or accept arguments from both sides on that issue and take more middle responses.  When forced to choose only between legal abortion and prohibited abortion, they split evenly.  When given a variety of choices (illegal, legal with many restrictions, legal with some restrictions, legal) they tend to choose those middle options.  That's not very polarized.  

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8 minutes ago, Worzone said:

Lol whos in office? Hillary or Trump? In the sports terms i just used the "scoreboard" chant. Id say that the majority of conservatives disagree with you not me. 

The majority of conservatives disagree with my argument that the majority of Americans are not polarized nor ideologically extreme?

Seriously, what point are you trying to make here?

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