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Derek Carr - Most Over-Rated QB of 2016?

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11 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

This had nothing to do with Ryan, and that should be particularly evident from my posts at the start. The original poster made a claim about Carr and everyone freaked out. I just happen to agree that to the extent people consider Carr a top MVP candidate, he's overrated. If I was getting defensive about Ryan, I would have also said that Brady and Rodgers and everyone else was overrated. I most definitively have not done that. 

Nobody really 'freaked out' Brock except the other dude who made the thread. He obviously had an anti-Carr agenda. This is a Falcons board that is ultra-sensitive about Ryan getting the MVP recognition, the few who jumped in Are posters who tend to be a little more objective and less homers about the big picture. 

It's not that big a deal to me, I frankly could care very little about these type regular season things, although Ive been saying for several weeks matt will be the league MVP.  Super bowl MVP is what's truly important in cementing a QB's career legacy. That's what I want for matt and this team more than these media-driven popularity contests of regular season awards. 

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7 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Not twisting anything. You're giving a reason as to why Carr is overrated with the surrounding cast argument. The same can be said for Ryan. Plain and simple. Using red herring tactics to deflect the point I'm making isn't furthering the "Carr is overrated " narrative. The MVP award is exactly what it's name implies. MOST valuable player. You saw how the Raiders looked without Carr in their lineup. It wasn't the same team. His presence alone IMPACTS his team. Same can be said for Ryan. 

Ryan should win MVP trophy hands down. But to say that Carr shouldn't be in the conversation is asinine. 

 Why is this so hard? I never brought up supporting cast until someone arguing on the other side said you had to consider supporting cast. So I did. This isn't rocket surgery. I started with stats among other things, and everyone complained about that and someone brought up supporting cast, so I tried to use that.

edit: of course he impacts his team, capitalized or otherwise. So did every person in the MVP conversation, and in my opinion, to a greater degree than him. Not that hard. Of course, many people here want to discount Tom Brady as an MVP candidate because they don't think he impacts his team, which is just ridiculous.

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2 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

 Why is this so hard? I never brought up supporting cast until someone arguing on the other side said you had to consider supporting cast. So I did. This isn't rocket surgery. I started with stats among other things, and everyone complained about that and someone brought up supporting cast, so I tried to use that.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but who brought up supporting cast into the conversation other than you?

 

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13 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

 Why is this so hard? I never brought up supporting cast until someone arguing on the other side said you had to consider supporting cast. So I did. This isn't rocket surgery. I started with stats among other things, and everyone complained about that and someone brought up supporting cast, so I tried to use that.

Trying to be condescending with the "Why is this so hard" comment then following it up with "rocket surgery" just makes your stance and demeanor even more diluted.

You spoke as if his supporting cast was a variable list of all pros. They are good but not anywhere near the realm of what the Falcons have. And loads better than what the Patriots have. To compound that it came off as if you were saying that he shouldn't be in the conversation because of his supporting cast, which is why I brought up the Ryan comparison. 

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2 minutes ago, Vandy said:

I'm too lazy to look it up, but who brought up supporting cast into the conversation other than you?

 

I did but I also pointed out level of play. Carr had been exceptional this year. I have seen a great deal of poise and talent while watching him. 

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5 minutes ago, Vandy said:

I'm too lazy to look it up, but who brought up supporting cast into the conversation other than you?

 

As I have said, repeatedly, literally the person I quoted when I discussed supporting cast.

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Just now, BrockSamson said:

I have said, repeatedly, literally the person I quoted when I discussed .supporting cast.

Got it, sorry. Like I said, I was  too lazy to look it up. 

But to that point, did any MVP ever have a stronger regular season:rolleyes::rolleyes: supporting cast than Joe Montana? 

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14 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Trying to be condescending with the "Why is it so hard" comment then following it up with "rocket surgery" just makes your stance and demeanor even more diluted.

You spoke as if his supporting cast was a variable list of all pros. They are good but not anywhere near the realm of what the Falcons have. And loads better than what the Patriots have. To compound that it came off as if you were saying that he shouldn't be in the conversation because of his supporting cast, which is why I brought up the Ryan comparison. 

Variable list of all pros? I said he had two very good wide receivers, competent running backs, and a great OL. That's all true, and hardly a description of a list of all pros.

That's kind of the point, every time I or the original thread starter said something, it's gotten twisted, which is exasperating. We said by the stats, he shouldn't be considered a top MVP candidate, and then people are like "oh, so stats mean everything. So Drew Brees should win?"

someone else says you have to consider his cast so I do, and then everyone's like "oh, so anyone with a good cast is eliminated from consideration?"

 So one last time to clear up any confusion about what my point has been the entire time: Derek Carr has had a very good season, and I expect he will have some MVP type seasons in his future. However, this year he is far enough behind the other quarterbacks, as well as some running backs, that I don't think he should've been mentioned as a top MVP candidate.

 

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16 hours ago, AlabamaFalconFan said:

1. Matt Ryan

2. Tom Brady

3. Aaron Rodgers

The top 3 have been debated to death.

4. Travis Frederick

5. David Johnson

6. Mike Evans

7. Sam Bradford

8. Le'veon Bell

9. Dak Prescott

10. Aaron Donald

11. Ezekiel Elliott

12.  Justin Tucker

13. Khalil Mack

14. Captain Kirk Cousins

15.  T.Y. Hill

16. Landon Collins

17.  Marshal Yanda

18. Julio Jones

19. Damon Harrison

20. Von Miller

21. Odell Beckham Jr

22. Jay Ajayi

23. Alex Mack

24. Bobby Wagner

25. LeSean McCoy

27. Jordy Nelson

29.  Drew Brees

Most Valuable Player of the NFL ... not of the Oakland Raiders (which he is behind Khalil Mack IMHO).  Yes I value the guys on the line this much.

30. Some Guy from Oakland

 

Raise your hand is you think Ravens guard Marshal Yanda is more deserving of the MVP than Derek Carr. 

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3 minutes ago, tactician said:

Raise your hand is you think Ravens guard Marshal Yanda is more deserving of the MVP than Derek Carr. 

Or 25 others from that horrible list.

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55 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

Variable list of all pros? I said he had two very good wide receivers, competent running backs, and a great OL. That's all true, and hardly a description of a list of all pros.

That's kind of the point, every time I or the original thread starter said something, it's gotten twisted, which is exasperating. We said by the stats, he shouldn't be considered a top MVP candidate, and then people are like "oh, so stats mean everything. So Drew Brees should win?"

someone else says you have to consider his cast so I do, and then everyone's like "oh, so anyone with a good cast is eliminated from consideration?"

 So one last time to clear up any confusion about what my point has been the entire time: Derek Carr has had a very good season, and I expect he will have some MVP type seasons in his future. However, this year he is far enough behind the other quarterbacks, as well as some running backs, that I don't think he should've been mentioned as a top MVP candidate.

 

 

A second year WR in Cooper and Crabtree who has only had two 1000 yard seasons, and who only started playing well again when with Carr.

The running backs have played well enough with a 4.4 ypc this year but they have also had 8 fumbles , four of which have been lost.

Now let's look at how well these RBs did without Carr;

Broncos-16 Attempts...57 yards

Texans- 21 Attempts...64 yards. That's almost one and a half yards less than their average. 

Now let's look comparatively between the two Texans games this season. The run game had a whopping 35 yards rushing that game on 15 attempts. Meanwhile Carr went 21/31, 295 yards, 3 TDs. All while hitting 7 different receivers with a pass. And their leading receiver that game, their FB. 

Now let's look at the amount of different receivers he hit for a pass in his games. 8,11,9,9,7,7,9,10,9,7,9,7,6,10.

Ok let's take a look at their losses

Atlanta: 

Carr- 34/45 299yds 3TDs

KC:

Carr- 22/34 225 yds 1 TD 1 Int

Carr- 17/41 117 yds 

So of the 3 losses, Carr played poorly in one. 

This data only serves to assert the stance that Carr is NOT overrated.

 

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55 minutes ago, tactician said:

Raise your hand is you think Ravens guard Marshal Yanda is more deserving of the MVP than Derek Carr. 

Or Sam Bradford. Lol

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17 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

 

A second year WR in Cooper and Crabtree who has only had two 1000 yard seasons, and who only started playing well again when with Carr.

The running backs have played well enough with a 4.4 ypc this year but they have also had 8 fumbles , four of which have been lost.

Now let's look at how well these RBs did without Carr;

Broncos-16 Attempts...57 yards

Texans- 21 Attempts...64 yards. That's almost one and a half yards less than their average. 

Now let's look comparatively between the two Texans games this season. The run game had a whopping 35 yards rushing that game on 15 attempts. Meanwhile Carr went 21/31, 295 yards, 3 TDs. All while hitting 7 different receivers with a pass. And their leading receiver that game, their FB. 

Now let's look at the amount of different receivers he hit for a pass in his games. 8,11,9,9,7,7,9,10,9,7,9,7,6,10.

Ok let's take a look at their losses

Atlanta: 

Carr- 34/45 299yds 3TDs

KC:

Carr- 22/34 225 yds 1 TD 1 Int

Carr- 17/41 117 yds 

So of the 3 losses, Carr played poorly in one. 

This data only serves to assert the stance that Carr is NOT overrated.

 

Honestly, you think describing the RBs as "competent" was too much? You think calling Cooper and Crabtree "very good" is too much? Maybe you're the one that needs to get past stats. 

Again, you're arguing against a strawman. I agree Carr is very good, as I've said repeatedly. 

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Just now, BrockSamson said:

Honestly, you think describing the RBs as "competent" was too much? You think calling Cooper and Crabtree "very good" is too much? Maybe you're the one that needs to get past stats. 

Again, you're arguing against a strawman. I agree Carr is very good, as I've said repeatedly. 

LMAO Now who is "twisting" words? The initial argument is that Carr was overrated.I never said that YOU were saying he was overrated. The whole concept of this thread was to prove he was overrated. I have successfully proven that narrative to be false. And also proven that he does indeed elevate the players around him, which is what the whole MVP award is about. Keep deflecting though.

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11 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

LMAO Now who is "twisting" words? The initial argument is that Carr was overrated.I never said that YOU were saying he was overrated. The whole concept of this thread was to prove he was overrated. I have successfully proven that narrative to be false. And also proven that he does indeed elevate the players around him, which is what the whole MVP award is about. Keep deflecting though.

I said, specifically, that to the extent he's considered a top MVP candidate, he was overrated. You questioned his supporting cast, so I posted that his running backs were competent and his wide receivers very good. You set out to post stats showing otherwise for some reason, as if that wasn't true. I'm not twisting anything.

edit:  you may think you have proven something in this thread, but that does not make it so. 

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10 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

I said, specifically, that to the extent he's considered a top MVP candidate, he was overrated. You questioned his supporting cast, so I posted that his running backs were competent and his wide receivers very good. You set out to post stats showing otherwise for some reason, as if that wasn't true. I'm not twisting anything.

edit:  you may think you have proven something in this thread, but that does not make it so. 

 

I dissected the stats and players involved in the aforementioned arguments, instead of posting his placement amongst the other candidates. I then showed a comparative Analysis between two different games with the same team. I also showed how he elevated talent around him.  I then showed how he spread the ball around to maximize offensive output. But yeah they are all JUST stats.

Lol I don't think I have proven something, I KNOW I have. You have yet to refute my findings in two posts and continue the same song and dance of deflecting. Fortunately enough I am not in the minority of people who believe he should be in the MVP conversation as there are numerous pundits, analysts, coaches, and players that all share the same opinion.

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On 1/8/2017 at 6:39 PM, Sidecar Falcon said:

Lmao noticed you didn't quote me, champ. Coward! Have fun licking your wounds. 

:lol:

So I'm a coward because I didn't quote you when responding?  If you need clarification, I was talking to you when I said, "Whatever you say, champ."  There. 

Otherwise, I'm not sure what wounds I'm supposed to be licking. You've declared victory, and I usually find it a waste of time to continue discussing things with people who insist they've already "won" the discussion. But if it makes a difference to you: at best you've proven that the Raiders are a better team with Carr, which not one person has disputed.  You have not proven that he should have been one of the top MVP candidates.  

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4 hours ago, BrockSamson said:

:lol:

So I'm a coward because I didn't quote you when responding?  If you need clarification, I was talking to you when I said, "Whatever you say, champ."  There. 

Otherwise, I'm not sure what wounds I'm supposed to be licking. You've declared victory, and I usually find it a waste of time to continue discussing things with people who insist they've already "won" the discussion. But if it makes a difference to you: at best you've proven that the Raiders are a better team with Carr, which not one person has disputed.  You have not proven that he should have been one of the top MVP candidates.  

Lmao Three days stewing on it and that is the best you can come up with? Wow! I completely forgot about this thread, but it appears you haven't.  

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