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gto30272

Derek Carr - Most Over-Rated QB of 2016?

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Just now, BrockSamson said:

I have watched him play, as well as many other players, though certainly not every game. And of course it's not just the top-stats award.

But it's weird people try to divorce stats from value altogether, particularly those stats specifically designed to assess value. Again, Carr was very good this year, but enough other players were better that he shouldn't really be in the MVP conversation. That is evident through both observation and stats, though apparently not through narrative or gut-instinct valuations.

 

I agree that stats shouldn't be divorced from the conversation but there needs to be context to those stats. Brees is a prime example of this. While he is top in almost all conceivable stats, I would not consider him in the conversation for MVP because of the other mitigating factors. 

Another example is Brady. Patriots did not miss a beat with him out of action for the first couple games of the season. Yet he is being considered as a top 3 candidate for MVP? I agree he's played well but there was no great impact with him being gone. 

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28 minutes ago, AlabamaFalconFan said:

1. Matt Ryan

2. Tom Brady

3. Aaron Rodgers

The top 3 have been debated to death.

4. Travis Frederick

5. David Johnson

6. Mike Evans

7. Sam Bradford

8. Le'veon Bell

9. Dak Prescott

10. Aaron Donald

11. Ezekiel Elliott

12.  Justin Tucker

13. Khalil Mack

14. Captain Kirk Cousins

15.  T.Y. Hill

16. Landon Collins

17.  Marshal Yanda

18. Julio Jones

19. Damon Harrison

20. Von Miller

21. Odell Beckham Jr

22. Jay Ajayi

23. Alex Mack

24. Bobby Wagner

25. LeSean McCoy

27. Jordy Nelson

29.  Drew Brees

Most Valuable Player of the NFL ... not of the Oakland Raiders (which he is behind Khalil Mack IMHO).  Yes I value the guys on the line this much.

30. Some Guy from Oakland

 

Um no.  Many of those are laughable now you're just making yourself look dumb.  It's one thing to have a wrong opinion, it's another to back it up with stupidity.

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2 minutes ago, athell said:

Um no.  Many of those are laughable now you're just making yourself look dumb.  It's one thing to have a wrong opinion, it's another to back it up with stupidity.

I stopped reading this list at 7. Sam Bradford and MVP shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph. Lol

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36 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

Eh, I agree this is a weird thread, but you're twisting what he is saying. In 1990, Montana was near the top of the league in basically every passing statistic and on a great team. That's MVP worthy. Carr is on a team with a good record, but not near the top of the league in almost any passing or QB relevant statistic. That is not MVP worthy.

Edit: and yes, I'd vote Brees over Carr, but not over more deserving players.

Of course I'm twisting what he's saying, he open that door wide open for me to do that with some of his silly rants.

You would vote Brees ahead of Carr? Then You don't understand what MVP means anymore than the OP does.

 

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39 minutes ago, AlabamaFalconFan said:

1. Matt Ryan

2. Tom Brady

3. Aaron Rodgers

The top 3 have been debated to death.

4. Travis Frederick

5. David Johnson

6. Mike Evans

7. Sam Bradford

8. Le'veon Bell

9. Dak Prescott

10. Aaron Donald

11. Ezekiel Elliott

12.  Justin Tucker

13. Khalil Mack

14. Captain Kirk Cousins

15.  T.Y. Hill

16. Landon Collins

17.  Marshal Yanda

18. Julio Jones

19. Damon Harrison

20. Von Miller

21. Odell Beckham Jr

22. Jay Ajayi

23. Alex Mack

24. Bobby Wagner

25. LeSean McCoy

27. Jordy Nelson

29.  Drew Brees

Most Valuable Player of the NFL ... not of the Oakland Raiders (which he is behind Khalil Mack IMHO).  Yes I value the guys on the line this much.

30. Some Guy from Oakland

 

LMAO. Walmart must have ran a blue-light special on PBR beer tonight!

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3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

LMAO. Walmart must have ran a blue-light special on PBR beer tonight!

It's especially funny considering they just played today and looked awful.  They went from #2 seed, the one team that could take out the Pats to #5 seed, and bounced by a team with granted a great defense but historically bad offense.  I wonder what happened?  Oh right.  Their MVP Derek Carr got hurt and the Raiders turned to trash.

What an awful thread.

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3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Of course I'm twisting what he's saying, he open that door wide open for me to do that with some of his silly rants.

You would vote Brees ahead of Carr? Then You don't understand what MVP means anymore than the OP does.

 

Actually you made an absurd argument, cherry picked one stat, and got caught. You haven't made one valid argument yet. You've also been obnoxious and condescending with your "want to try again" statement and have flat out lost any logical debate. Good thing someone called a "knock out blow" for you or you wouldn't have anything.  Again with the "OP doesn't understand what MVP means" yet you have absolutely nothing going. Sure hope you're not a lawyer or involved in any type of intellectual debate in life. 

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1 minute ago, athell said:

It's especially funny considering they just played today and looked awful.  They went from #2 seed, the one team that could take out the Pats to #5 seed, and bounced by a team with granted a great defense but historically bad offense.  I wonder what happened?  Oh right.  Their MVP Derek Carr got hurt and the Raiders turned to trash.

What an awful thread.

Read the OP and tell me with a straight face they were a legitimate contender. The Raiders were overrated and 1-3 against current playoff teams. Your post has absolutely no logic and is literally everything this thread opposes. But yes Carr has more value because a 3rd string QB with no starts ever didn't perform well. Btw Carr should have lost to the Texans the first time they played as well. 

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Just now, gto30272 said:

Read the OP and tell me with a straight face they were a legitimate contender. The Raiders were overrated and 1-3 against current playoff teams. Your post has absolutely no logic and is literally everything this thread opposes. But yes Carr has more value because a 3rd string QB with no starts ever didn't perform well. Btw Carr should have lost to the Texans the first time they played as well. 

It's very obvious you are fully bought into your BS version of reality in your head so there really is no sense in arguing.  I could provide all kinds of logic and stats to prove you wrong but others have already done so and you are doubling down on your horrible opinion instead coming back with anything of of substance. You know what they say about debating a crazy person...

My ignore list thanks you, it was getting lonely.

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This thread should be locked...and I've been known for posting stuff that has really riled up people.

Seriously? Carr is a good young QB and at a comparable age to Ryan he outperformed him. You don't typically become who you're going to be at QB until your upper 20s and beyond in the NFL.

Chill out. The finishing kick the Falcons went on with Ryan being on fire when he was in is going to likely get Ryan the NFL MVP. And that is cool, but winning the Super Bowl matters more than an award.

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10 minutes ago, gto30272 said:

Actually you made an absurd argument, cherry picked one stat, and got caught. You haven't made one valid argument yet. You've also been obnoxious and condescending with your "want to try again" statement and have flat out lost any logical debate. Good thing someone called a "knock out blow" for you or you wouldn't have anything.  Again with the "OP doesn't understand what MVP means" yet you have absolutely nothing going. Sure hope you're not a lawyer or involved in any type of intellectual debate in life. 

PBR special on a Saturday night = Melt down time. 

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6 minutes ago, athell said:

It's very obvious you are fully bought into your BS version of reality in your head so there really is no sense in arguing.  I could provide all kinds of logic and stats to prove you wrong but others have already done so and you are doubling down on your horrible opinion instead coming back with anything of of substance. You know what they say about debating a crazy person...

My ignore list thanks you, it was getting lonely.

You were smarter than me, athell. I let myself get sucked in on this crazy azz thread, and lost brain cells accordingly. 

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You got caught making broad statements about a player you knew little about. It would have been one thing if you dissected his supporting cast/team/level of play to support your point but you didn't. Instead you based it solely on stats. Which in and of itself is a flawed argument as it takes nothing else into consideration. 

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10 hours ago, Vandy said:

 

You would vote Brees ahead of Carr? Then You don't understand what MVP means anymore than the OP does.

 

Disagree. Brees is hugely valuable to that team. 

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8 hours ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

You got caught making broad statements about a player you knew little about. It would have been one thing if you dissected his supporting cast/team/level of play to support your point but you didn't. Instead you based it solely on stats. Which in and of itself is a flawed argument as it takes nothing else into consideration. 

Ok. Carr has two very good WRs, a great OL, and competent RBs. The idea that he "carried the team on his back" is narrative driven hyperbole. He was a very good player on a team with other very good players. That his team struggled with a 3rd string rookie QB making his first start against a top defense does not change that.

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2 hours ago, BrockSamson said:

Ok. Carr has two very good WRs, a great OL, and competent RBs. The idea that he "carried the team on his back" is narrative driven hyperbole. He was a very good player on a team with other very good players. That his team struggled with a 3rd string rookie QB making his first start against a top defense does not change that.

So any player with other good players on their team doesn't qualify for MVP? By that rationale Ryan would be eliminated from the MVP race. Watch the level of play with and without Carr in the lineup. He elevates other players around him. Again, it's not all about stats or looking at a particular set to back a point but the whole picture. The whole "Carr is overrated" narrative is false and is widely considered to be false by not only by football fans, but by pundits,coaches and analysts as well.

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15 hours ago, Vandy said:

Montana was not top in league in comparison  to his peers in the passing statistics you mentioned on Carr...For example, he was 7th in QB rating the year he won in 1990 at 89.0, Jim Kelly's lead the league with 101.2. That's right, 7th behind such wizards as Steve Deberg and Jay Schroeder

want to try again?

I'm a bit curious as to how Warren Moon didn't win.  They must have had a bad season because he beat Joe in every category with passing yards by almost 750 yards.  7 more TD's 3 less INT's and a higher QB rating.

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12 minutes ago, ltstorm2 said:

I'm a bit curious as to how Warren Moon didn't win.  They must have had a bad season because he beat Joe in every category with passing yards by almost 750 yards.  7 more TD's 3 less INT's and a higher QB rating.

Yes he did, as did Cunningham in most categories. 

Montana also threw 16 InTs that season. 

Houston only went 8-7 when moon was playing (San Fran went 14-2). So moon was kinda like Brees this year. 

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1 hour ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

So any player with other good players on their team doesn't qualify for MVP?  

No, and you and Vandy keep twisting things. MVP candidates almost always have other good players around them, because as a group we have decided that team wins is one factor to consider in who gets the award. You said any of valuation of him has to account for the players around him.  I gave that valuation. My point being, it's disingenuous to say that he "carried the team," as if he did it single-handedly, or as if there were no other good players on the team.  The same is true of Rodgers.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say, he's a very good player who had a very good year. But this narrative has developed that he, and basically he alone, carried an otherwise poor team to the playoffs and therefor is a top candidate for MVP. I disagree with that.

I agree that it's about the whole picture, which is why Ryan should win it this year, and why Carr should not be a serious candidate because he's behind at least several other better candidates.

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4 hours ago, BrockSamson said:

Ok. Carr has two very good WRs, a great OL, and competent RBs. The idea that he "carried the team on his back" is narrative driven hyperbole. He was a very good player on a team with other very good players. 

So does matt Ryan.

Not sure what the point is here. 

 

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9 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

No, and you and Vandy keep twisting things. MVP candidates almost always have other good players around them, because as a group we have decided that team wins is one factor to consider in who gets the award. You said any of valuation of him has to account for the players around him.  I gave that valuation. My point being, it's disingenuous to say that he "carried the team," as if he did it single-handedly, or as if there were no other good players on the team.  The same is true of Rodgers.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say, he's a very good player who had a very good year. But this narrative has developed that he, and basically he alone, carried an otherwise poor team to the playoffs and therefor is a top candidate for MVP. I disagree with that.

I agree that it's about the whole picture, which is why Ryan should win it this year, and why Carr should not be a serious candidate because he's behind at least several other better candidates.

Ryan should and will win the award.

carr should and will be among the top candidate vote getters.. Oakland went from 7-9 in 2015 to 12-4 this season and playoff berth. Much like Ryan here, Carr is the main reason why. 

Nobody's twisting anything. This is just how the  MVP voting almost always works. 

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9 minutes ago, Vandy said:

So does matt Ryan.

Not sure what the point is here. 

 

The point is that someone above said you had to also dissect the team around him, as if he was playing on a team of scrubs. I thus attempted to do that. People have also said that he "carried the team." It's relavent to that discussion.

Of course Matt Ryan has very good players around him. So does Aaron Rodgers. So does Tom Brady. So does Ezekiel Elliott and Dak Prescott. So does just about every MVP candidate because we consider team wins important, and in the NFL no one player, no matter how good he is, carries the team. My only point has been that of all of those very good players on teams with other very good players, Derek Carr is far enough behind the top guys that he should not be considered a top MVP candidate.

It's a weird thing for everyone to get so defensive about though.

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23 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

The point is that someone above said you had to also dissect the team around him, as if he was playing on a team of scrubs. I thus attempted to do that. People have also said that he "carried the team." It's relavent to that discussion.

Of course Matt Ryan has very good players around him. So does Aaron Rodgers. So does Tom Brady. So does Ezekiel Elliott and Dak Prescott. So does just about every MVP candidate because we consider team wins important, and in the NFL no one player, no matter how good he is, carries the team. My only point has been that of all of those very good players on teams with other very good players, Derek Carr is far enough behind the top guys that he should not be considered a top MVP candidate.

It's a weird thing for everyone to get so defensive about though.

You seem to be the one most defensive, as if we're saying Ryan doesn't deserve it, which I assure you we're not. Not sure you and I differ that much on the issue. To me, MVP is more about indispensability than it is raw numbers (which is why I threw out Joe Montana's 1990 season and you and the other dude got so bent out of shape about comparing different eras...LOL).

I don't think Carr did quite enough for MVP, even if he had not gotten hurt. Although him being hurt did show how less a team raiders are without him. For example, i don't think our offense would regress as much as raiders did if (god forbid) matt went down because of our OC and also our better running backs. 

Bottom line...I think both Ryan and Rodgers did more for their teams. But I definetely think Carr was a valid Top 5 candidate, he played so ******* well in crucial moments in games all year long. No team grew more in past season than raiders did, and biggest reason why was their QB.

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8 minutes ago, Vandy said:

You seem to be the one most defensive, as if we're saying Ryan doesn't deserve it, which I assure you we're not. Not sure you and I differ that much on the issue. To me, MVP is more about indispensability than it is raw numbers (which is why I threw out Joe Montana's 1990 season and you and the other dude got so bent out of shape about comparing different eras...LOL).

I don't think Carr did quite enough for MVP, even if he had not gotten hurt. Although him being hurt did show how less a team raiders are without him.

Bottom line...I think both Ryan and Rodgers did more for their teams. But I definetely think he was a valid Top 5 candidate, he played so ******* well in crucial moments in games all year long.

This had nothing to do with Ryan, and that should be particularly evident from my posts at the start. The original poster made a claim about Carr and everyone freaked out. I just happen to agree that to the extent people consider Carr a top MVP candidate, he's overrated. If I was getting defensive about Ryan, I would have also said that Brady and Rodgers and everyone else was overrated. I most definitively have not done that. 

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39 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

No, and you and Vandy keep twisting things. MVP candidates almost always have other good players around them, because as a group we have decided that team wins is one factor to consider in who gets the award. You said any of valuation of him has to account for the players around him.  I gave that valuation. My point being, it's disingenuous to say that he "carried the team," as if he did it single-handedly, or as if there were no other good players on the team.  The same is true of Rodgers.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say, he's a very good player who had a very good year. But this narrative has developed that he, and basically he alone, carried an otherwise poor team to the playoffs and therefor is a top candidate for MVP. I disagree with that.

I agree that it's about the whole picture, which is why Ryan should win it this year, and why Carr should not be a serious candidate because he's behind at least several other better candidates.

Not twisting anything. You're giving a reason as to why Carr is overrated with the surrounding cast argument. The same can be said for Ryan. Plain and simple. Using red herring tactics to deflect the point I'm making isn't furthering the "Carr is overrated " narrative. The MVP award is exactly what it's name implies. MOST valuable player. You saw how the Raiders looked without Carr in their lineup. It wasn't the same team. His presence alone IMPACTS his team. Same can be said for Ryan. 

Ryan should win MVP trophy hands down. But to say that Carr shouldn't be in the conversation is asinine. 

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