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gto30272

Derek Carr - Most Over-Rated QB of 2016?

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Carr is a great young QB who probably has some monster seasons ahead of him. He should not have been a serious MVP candidate this year though. To the extent people seriously consider him a legit contender for MVP this year, he is overrated.

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17 minutes ago, gto30272 said:

You brought Joe Montana somehow into the conversation. And NO, Derek Carr is not a valid MVP candidate. 

Only after you threw some data-mined stats that were similar to Montana's when he won MVP. Maybe he was overrated too?

Ryan should be this year's MVP,  but only a biased knucklehead would say Carr doesn't deserve to be in the conversation. 

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3 minutes ago, JerseyNo12 said:

Ryan put up identical stats to Carr in his 3rd season (2010). 62.5% completion, 3,705 yards, 28 TDs, 9 INTs, led team to 13-3 record and #1 seed in NFC.

Carr in 2016: 63.8% completion, 3,937 yards, 28 TDs, 6 INTs, led Raiders to 12-3 record.

So you're kinda reaching with that criticism, but Carr does deserve the respect he's been given.

He hasn't been givin the respect by some in this thread. Who has argued that he's legitimately an MVP candidate? He's really good though and trending up yet is now in this made up overrated status.  Much like Ryan has dealt with his whole career. Wilbon ring a bell? This is a weird thread for a Falcons board. 

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1 minute ago, Vandy said:

Only after you threw some data-mined stats that were similar to Montana's when he won MVP. 

Ryan should be this year's MVP,  but only a biased knucklehead would say Carr doesn't deserve to be in the conversation. 

Again, I stand by my response that you can not compare stats from different generations but rather need to compare how they performed among their peers. When Montana had those stats and won MVP he was at the top of his peers. Carr is not!

 

Biased knucklehead?  Is that a technical term? Great supporting evidence and I guess there are a few in this thread that are "biased knuckleheads ".  Carr is not even close to the MVP of the league. For the Raiders, yes. 

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6 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

Carr is a great young QB who probably has some monster seasons ahead of him. He should not have been a serious MVP candidate this year though. To the extent people seriously consider him a legit contender for MVP this year, he is overrated.

Agreed. If a top 10-15 qb is being positioned as a top 3 qb, does that not mean he is overrated?  That's not to say he isn't good or won't be great, but simply that he isn't as good as being positioned. Carr is not close to MVP of the league and those that put him in the conversation are overrating him. 

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11 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Only after you threw some data-mined stats that were similar to Montana's when he won MVP. 

Ryan should be this year's MVP,  but only a biased knucklehead would say Carr doesn't deserve to be in the conversation. 

Agreed. The issue is those who look purely at stats. If we based players worth based solely off of stats then Brees' name would be in consideration for MVP. But it's not, why? Because of the other mitigating factors surrounding his play.

It all comes down to people actually watching other football games besides the Falcons. I'm a football fan first and foremost, who's favorite team is the Falcons. I love watching other teams play. 

Unfortunately not everyone shares my desire to watch teams other than the Falcons. And those people then speak on subjects based on a very narrow view on a player/team. In the end they make themselves look uninformed. 

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16 minutes ago, gto30272 said:

"Don't be ignorant" yet makes a post with absolutely no substance. Absolutely competes with Matt Ryan? In what?

Sometimes life is more than being analytical and data driven. If you dont understand the influence and weight Carr had on the Raiders, you havent watched a Raiders game. There was a reason they were good during the regular season. It wasnt Connor Cook lol. Like I said. I love MR2 as MVP, but **** Derrick Carr is a phenomenal QB. Whether your sideline coach self thinks so or not lol. I have "Rise Up" tattoo'd on me. But in the Bay Area we have an expression... "Real Recognize Real"... apparently you arent real. Save the bias for someone else.

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10 minutes ago, Black Francis said:

He hasn't been givin the respect by some in this thread. Who has argued that he's legitimately an MVP candidate? He's really good though and trending up yet is now in this made up overrated status.  Much like Ryan has dealt with his whole career. Wilbon ring a bell? This is a weird thread for a Falcons board. 

The Falcons might have some of the most sensitive fans in the league. Ryan was just named 1st team All-Pro and will be named NFL MVP, and yet some guys are still complaining that Carr was even considered. Talk about lack of sportsmanship.

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9 minutes ago, gto30272 said:

Again, I stand by my response that you can not compare stats from different generations but rather need to compare how they performed among their peers. When Montana had those stats and won MVP he was at the top of his peers. Carr is not!

 

Biased knucklehead?  Is that a technical term? Great supporting evidence and I guess there are a few in this thread that are "biased knuckleheads ".  Carr is not even close to the MVP of the league. For the Raiders, yes. 

Montana was not top in league in comparison  to his peers in the passing statistics you mentioned on Carr...For example, he was 7th in QB rating the year he won in 1990 at 89.0, Jim Kelly's lead the league with 101.2. That's right, 7th behind such wizards as Steve Deberg and Jay Schroeder

want to try again?

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4 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Montana was not top in league in comparison  to his peers in the passing statistics you mentioned on Carr...For example, he was 7th in QB rating the year he won in 1990. That's right, 7th behind such wizards as Steve Deberg and Jay Schroeder

want to try again?

D@mn... knock out blow by Vandy. 

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10 minutes ago, Black Francis said:

Who has argued that he's legitimately an MVP candidate? 

Several prominent NFL writers including at least one that actually voted for him. 

Carr is a story MVP candidate, in that his/Oakland's story makes a great narrative. But all things considered, he should have been far enough behind several candidates as to not be a serious candidate himself. Great young player but, much like Matt Ryan until this year, not yet MVP level.

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9 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Montana was not top in league in comparison  to his peers in the passing statistics you mentioned on Carr...For example, he was 7th in QB rating the year he won in 1990 at 89.0, Jim Kelly's lead the league with 101.2. That's right, 7th behind such wizards as Steve Deberg and Jay Schroeder

want to try again?

Montana was 3rd in the league in completion percentage, yards, and TDs. What was Carr in the top 3 in?  Want to try again?

Montana also only played 15 games and the 49ers were 14-2...

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2 minutes ago, JerseyNo12 said:

The Falcons might have some of the most sensitive fans in the league. Ryan was just named 1st team All-Pro and will be named NFL MVP, and yet some guys are still complaining that Carr was even considered. Talk about lack of sportsmanship.

It truly is weird man. It's out of left field weird. The whole QB respect thing is based on career accomplishments and results. We're you thinking about Carr's place in the national narrative? I know I wasn't and neither were you obviously, but I recognize his future potential and the fact that he has put the Raiders back in the discussion. That's a pretty big deal all things being relative. I'm thinking about next week against what looks like our opponents the Seahawks individual awards or conversations be ****ed. Like I said. Weird thread. 

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8 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Montana was not top in league in comparison  to his peers in the passing statistics you mentioned on Carr...For example, he was 7th in QB rating the year he won in 1990 at 89.0, Jim Kelly's lead the league with 101.2. That's right, 7th behind such wizards as Steve Deberg and Jay Schroeder

want to try again?

Warren Moon probably should have won it that year, but the team record wasn't good enough I guess. But Montana had a better overall year than the most of those guys, considering all stats. Cunningham the only other one who should have been in the conversation.

His point remains, however. Comparing QB numbers from today to an MVP QB from 1990 is kind of worthless.

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3 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

Several prominent NFL writers including at least one that actually voted for him. 

Carr is a story MVP candidate, in that his/Oakland's story makes a great narrative. But all things considered, he should have been far enough behind several candidates as to not be a serious candidate himself. Great young player but, much like Matt Ryan until this year, not yet MVP level.

Man. That's how it goes every year. The 4th or 5th player ala QB, especially a young one for a major market always gets that made up narrative. It's what the league does. They sell the league. This is not new. Ryan was mentioned that way too in years past. 13-3. Home field advantage. The talking heads didn't really believe but he was mentioned. This is nothing new. Do you remember? Weird thread. Sorry. This is the most made up thread ever. 

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6 minutes ago, gto30272 said:

Montana was 3rd in the league in completion percentage, yards, and TDs. What was Carr in the top 3 in?  Want to try again?

But 7th in passer rating...So if completion percentage, yards, and passing TD's are the sole criteria, you're voting for Drew Brees?

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1 minute ago, Vandy said:

But 7th in passer rating...So if completion percentage, yards, and passing TD's are the sole criteria, you're voting for Drew Brees?

You're changing your argument. Montana led the 49ers to 14-2, was top 3 in 3 categories and 7th in qb rating. Only other qb in top 3 of each category I mentioned was Warren Moon. Hence Montana was at top of the list of his peers like I said. Carr is nowhere near the top of the list of his peers. Also like I said. I'm not even sure what you're arguing trying to bring Montanas 1990 MVP into this. Either way, your argument is clearly flawed. 

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7 minutes ago, Vandy said:

But 7th in passer rating...So if completion percentage, yards, and passing TD's are the sole criteria, you're voting for Drew Brees?

Eh, I agree this is a weird thread, but you're twisting what he is saying. In 1990, Montana was near the top of the league in basically every passing statistic and on a great team. That's MVP worthy. Carr is on a team with a good record, but not near the top of the league in almost any passing or QB relevant statistic. That is not MVP worthy.

Edit: and yes, I'd vote Brees over Carr, but not over more deserving players.

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14 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

Warren Moon probably should have won it that year, but the team record wasn't good enough I guess. But Montana had a better overall year than the most of those guys, considering all stats. Cunningham the only other one who should have been in the conversation.

His point remains, however. Comparing QB numbers from today to an MVP QB from 1990 is kind of worthless.

No, Moon shouldn't have won, I'm fine with Montana winning. Point being MVP isn't just about who has the most glossy stats. 

And comparing QB numbers isn't worthless at all to me, I find it interesting  no matter what era. 

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1 hour ago, athell said:

Name 20 players ahead of Carr in your mind.  This should be good.

1. Matt Ryan

2. Tom Brady

3. Aaron Rodgers

The top 3 have been debated to death.

4. Travis Frederick

5. David Johnson

6. Mike Evans

7. Sam Bradford

8. Le'veon Bell

9. Dak Prescott

10. Aaron Donald

11. Ezekiel Elliott

12.  Justin Tucker

13. Khalil Mack

14. Captain Kirk Cousins

15.  T.Y. Hill

16. Landon Collins

17.  Marshal Yanda

18. Julio Jones

19. Damon Harrison

20. Von Miller

21. Odell Beckham Jr

22. Jay Ajayi

23. Alex Mack

24. Bobby Wagner

25. LeSean McCoy

27. Jordy Nelson

29.  Drew Brees

Most Valuable Player of the NFL ... not of the Oakland Raiders (which he is behind Khalil Mack IMHO).  Yes I value the guys on the line this much.

30. Some Guy from Oakland

 

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16 minutes ago, BrockSamson said:

Eh, I agree this is a weird thread, but you're twisting what he is saying. In 1990, Montana was near the top of the league in basically every passing statistic and on a great team. That's MVP worthy. Carr is on a team with a good record, but not near the top of the league in almost any passing or QB relevant statistic. That is not MVP worthy.

Edit: and yes, I'd vote Brees over Carr, but not over more deserving players.

Brees is top 5 in QB rating, TDs, and yards. He is not even being considered for MVP because of the other mitigating factors surrounding him. Carr carried his team on his back. When they look at MVP they are typically looking at the overall impact a player has had for their team.

Carr has been immensely important to the Raiders' success this year. He has been more important to the Raiders' success than Brady has been to the Patriots success.l this year.  

That's the argument being made. While people can throw around stats and twist it to meet whatever agenda they have, it doesn't change the impact a player has on their respective team.

You can't say Carr is "2016's most overrated quarterback" then proceed to back it up solely with stats. That's not how it works. You have to actually watch him play and see what he does for the players surrounding him. 

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1 minute ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Brees is too 5 in QB rating, TDs, and yards. He is not even being considered for MVP because of the other mitigating factors surrounding him. Carr carried his team on his back. When they look at MVP they are typically looking at the overall impact a player has had for their team.

Carr has been immensely important to the Raiders' success this year. He has been more important to the Raiders' success than Brady had to the Patriots success. 

That's the argument being made. While people can throw around stats and twist it to meet whatever agenda they have, it doesn't change the impact a player has on their respective team.

You can't say Carr is "2016's most overrated quarterback" then proceed to back it up solely with stats. That's not how it works. You have to actually watch him play and see what he does for the players surrounding him. 

I have watched him play, as well as many other players, though certainly not every game. And of course it's not just the top-stats award.

But it's weird people try to divorce stats from value altogether, particularly those stats specifically designed to assess value. Again, Carr was very good this year, but enough other players were better that he shouldn't really be in the MVP conversation. That is evident through both observation and stats, though apparently not through narrative or gut-instinct valuations.

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1 hour ago, gto30272 said:

I quoted you discussing the TB game...

If anyone lets you throw for 500+ yards you're doing defense and offense right. They had over 600 yards of offense and 80% was Carr. Give up. 

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