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DPOTY and DROTY - No Bias


pzummo
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Who really should win? I hear a lot of folks say Bosa should be DROTY. The justification is he has a lot of sacks. And I hear a lot of others say Von Miller should be DPOTY. The justification is that he has a lot more tackles than Beasley.

So let's remove the bias and stop moving the goalposts. Compare apples to apples, and value impact plays vs tackles the same across the board.

Bosa had 41 tackles, 10.5 sacks, and 1 FF. No other impact plays like INT's, Td's, or PD's.

Jones had 106 tackles, 3 INT's, 11 PD's, 2 TD's, and 1 FF. 15 impact plays, 4 of which were turnovers. 

Von Miller had 78 tackles, 13.5 sacks, 3 PD's, and 3 FF's.

Beasley had 39 tackles, 15.5 sacks, 2 PD's, 6 FF's, and a defensive TD. 

Is Deion Jones more deserving because of 65 more tackles along with his other impact plays? Or are tackles not worth much, so Beasley is more deserving because he has more sacks, FF's, and the TD?

Personally, I think 2 sacks, +3 forced TO's, and a defensive TD outweigh the +39 tackles. If people want to put more weight on tackles over impact plays, than Deion Jones should be DROTY with +65 tackles. Frankly, Jones should be DROTY either way. I don't think 10.5 sacks outweighs 3 INT's, 2 defensive TD's, and 11 PD's going along with 65 more tackles.

That being said, I really just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of people justifying not giving Beasley an award because of tackle stats while ignoring tackles when wanting to award Bosa. 

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Just now, BoomGoesTheDynamite said:

Jones has 3 INT's, 2 TD's, 65 more tackles and the same amount of FF. The only thing he doesn't have is sacks, but that's due to the position he plays.

I am a homer, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone else got DROY, but I think Jones is deserving.

Don't forget 14 PD's. I made two mistakes above. His stats were adjusted. 108 tackles, 3 INT's, 14 PD's, and 1 FF.

For what it's worth, 3 INT's ties a CB and SS to lead all rookies. No other rookie LBer had more than 1.

14 PD's is 3rd amongst all rookies. 1st among rookie LBers, 2nd place only had 8.

2 defensive TD's also led all rookies.

He also led all rookies in tackles and solo tackles.

But Bosa because he had 10.5 sacks?

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1 minute ago, pzummo said:

Don't forget 14 PD's. I made two mistakes above. His stats were adjusted. 108 tackles, 3 INT's, 14 PD's, and 1 FF.

For what it's worth, 3 INT's ties a CB and SS to lead all rookies. No other rookie LBer had more than 1.

14 PD's is 3rd amongst all rookies. 1st among rookie LBers, 2nd place only had 8.

2 defensive TD's also led all rookies.

He also led all rookies in tackles and solo tackles.

But Bosa because he had 10.5 sacks?

My vote is for Jones. I'm just saying that he may not win because he's a Falcon, and we already have 3 players getting accolades. Don't want to give ATL to much recognition. Bad for business<_<

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1 hour ago, Lord Sarcomere said:

Bosa will hands down get DROTY and he deserves it. 

I was being serious when I asked why. Without bias, make a case for him. Why does he deserve it more than Jones?

I think Bosa has a great future. He had 10.5 sacks while missing 4 games. That's really impressive. But you don't get extra credit for missing games and I don't see him having a better "season" than Jones. 

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It's hard comparing different positions, so it's usually helpful to compare each player to someone who is top 5 or top 10 at his position.

Bosa performed at a near pro bowl level for all players (not just rookies at his position)

Jones didn't quite.

I think both had fantastic year, and I'm excited about Jones, he's way better than I thought.  But I think his year is had by a number of LBs, whereas Bosa's year is rare even for vets (especially on a per game basis).

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34 minutes ago, pzummo said:

I was being serious when I asked why. Without bias, make a case for him. Why does he deserve it more than Jones?

I think Bosa has a great future. He had 10.5 sacks while missing 4 games. That's really impressive. But you don't get extra credit for missing games and I don't see him having a better "season" than Jones. 

Linebacker is a relatively easy position to come in to the league and play (well) in as a rookie. DE, on the other hand, is brutal - requires a lot of refinery and technique. I think I read a statistic out there saying that Bosa had the most pressures of any rookie DE of all time, which is ridiculous given he missed 4 games to even begin the season. 

Living in southern California, I got to watch a number of Chargers games and Bosa is just a complete animal. He is going to be an elite, face of the NFL type of player ala JJ Watt. Plays the run exceptionally well and is relentless when pass rushing. Bosa is already close to being a JJ Watt/ Aaron Donald type defensive lineman. Can't say that DeBo is that close to being a Keuchly or Bobby Wagner type LB (although I believe he has the ceiling for it)

DeBo certainly put up some outstanding numbers as a rookie. He will be a great LB for us and I am happy that we have him. I don't intend to slight DeBo at all when I say Bosa deserves the award, I just think Bosa is an incredible player. Really, what it comes down to for me are not necessarily the numbers, but the eye test. 

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Jones would win it easily if not for Bosa.  Bosa was incredible this year, doubly impressive considering he missed all of training camp and some of the regular season due to injury.  Bosa deserves it, no one can be upset if he wins it over Jones...it would not be a snub.

I think Beasley should win DPOY, but after seeing the AP voting, he has no chance.  Mack is going to win that.

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59 minutes ago, Lord Sarcomere said:

Linebacker is a relatively easy position to come in to the league and play (well) in as a rookie. DE, on the other hand, is brutal - requires a lot of refinery and technique. I think I read a statistic out there saying that Bosa had the most pressures of any rookie DE of all time, which is ridiculous given he missed 4 games to even begin the season. 

Living in southern California, I got to watch a number of Chargers games and Bosa is just a complete animal. He is going to be an elite, face of the NFL type of player ala JJ Watt. Plays the run exceptionally well and is relentless when pass rushing. Bosa is already close to being a JJ Watt/ Aaron Donald type defensive lineman. Can't say that DeBo is that close to being a Keuchly or Bobby Wagner type LB (although I believe he has the ceiling for it)

DeBo certainly put up some outstanding numbers as a rookie. He will be a great LB for us and I am happy that we have him. I don't intend to slight DeBo at all when I say Bosa deserves the award, I just think Bosa is an incredible player. Really, what it comes down to for me are not necessarily the numbers, but the eye test. 

I can see where you are coming from. I do think some are giving him extra credit for what he might have been if he played all 16 games, or what he probably will be considering what he did in 12 games. But you have to look at the entire season.

In regards to Bosa comparing to elite DE's already, DeBo does at LBer as well. 3 INT's is 3rd among all LBers in the league. His 14 PD's were 2nd among all LBers. Kuechley has never had more than 12 PD's or 4 INT's. And he has only had one defensive TD in his entire career. His rookie year impact plays compares very favorably to elite LBers. Bosa is 13th in sacks. 

I think there is a fair argument either way, but do think DeBo deserves it. He called the defense as a rookie, which was far more than Bosa when looking at more than stats. 2 defensive TD's is ridiculous. 3 picks and 14 PD's is absurdly good.

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1 hour ago, pzummo said:

I can see where you are coming from. I do think some are giving him extra credit for what he might have been if he played all 16 games, or what he probably will be considering what he did in 12 games. But you have to look at the entire season.

In regards to Bosa comparing to elite DE's already, DeBo does at LBer as well. 3 INT's is 3rd among all LBers in the league. His 14 PD's were 2nd among all LBers. Kuechley has never had more than 12 PD's or 4 INT's. And he has only had one defensive TD in his entire career. His rookie year impact plays compares very favorably to elite LBers. Bosa is 13th in sacks. 

I think there is a fair argument either way, but do think DeBo deserves it. He called the defense as a rookie, which was far more than Bosa when looking at more than stats. 2 defensive TD's is ridiculous. 3 picks and 14 PD's is absurdly good.

You said no bias but you are being bias Bosa deserves it hands down to me he's been a monster. Missing training camp and the first 4 games and still getting that many sacks and pressures is impressive. Collins of the Giants going to win DPOY 

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30 minutes ago, TrueFalcon316 said:

You said no bias but you are being bias Bosa deserves it hands down to me he's been a monster. Missing training camp and the first 4 games and still getting that many sacks and pressures is impressive. Collins of the Giants going to win DPOY 

How? I used stats and facts to back my opinion. DeBo called the defense and ended up leading all rookies in several categories. He was among the top 3 at his position with impact plays. Bosa led rookies in sacks, but was 13th in the NFL in sacks.

I think Bosa is a beast and he might end up being the best defensive player out of this draft. But DROTY is not given to the person you think is the best or will be the best. It's whomever had the best season. 

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Bosa will win DROTY. Sacks are flashy, plus he was even more disruptive than his sack total suggests.

As for DPOY, I'm glad Beasley is in the running and he deserves consideration but Landon Collins should win it. He was a ******* beast this year and is the centerpiece of that great Giants defense.

Edited by Psychic Gibbon
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6 hours ago, pzummo said:

Who really should win? I hear a lot of folks say Bosa should be DROTY. The justification is he has a lot of sacks. And I hear a lot of others say Von Miller should be DPOTY. The justification is that he has a lot more tackles than Beasley.

So let's remove the bias and stop moving the goalposts. Compare apples to apples, and value impact plays vs tackles the same across the board.

Bosa had 41 tackles, 10.5 sacks, and 1 FF. No other impact plays like INT's, Td's, or PD's.

Jones had 106 tackles, 3 INT's, 11 PD's, 2 TD's, and 1 FF. 15 impact plays, 4 of which were turnovers. 

Von Miller had 78 tackles, 13.5 sacks, 3 PD's, and 3 FF's.

Beasley had 39 tackles, 15.5 sacks, 2 PD's, 6 FF's, and a defensive TD. 

Is Deion Jones more deserving because of 65 more tackles along with his other impact plays? Or are tackles not worth much, so Beasley is more deserving because he has more sacks, FF's, and the TD?

Personally, I think 2 sacks, +3 forced TO's, and a defensive TD outweigh the +39 tackles. If people want to put more weight on tackles over impact plays, than Deion Jones should be DROTY with +65 tackles. Frankly, Jones should be DROTY either way. I don't think 10.5 sacks outweighs 3 INT's, 2 defensive TD's, and 11 PD's going along with 65 more tackles.

That being said, I really just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of people justifying not giving Beasley an award because of tackle stats while ignoring tackles when wanting to award Bosa. 

sacks are over rated

 

:ninja:

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I think Jones and Neal should get a serious look for DROY. And I honesty think Jones should win, he played in all games, and played well and 2TD. 

I dont think Beasley should win DPOY, yeah he had a lot of sacks and forced fumbles but I think other player contributed more holistically

and I can't emphasize this enough: SACKS ARE THE MOST OVERRATED STAT IN FOOTBALL. Yes there are great plays but they don't tell the story of your total disruption. A sack could be a 1 yard loss making it 2 and 11. Then the the other team gets a first down. I think a TD is worth probably around 3.5 sacks. 

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