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amazing how the pendulum swings


Dago 3.0
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I'm not sure how this affects equal rights or racial segregation. 

It's ideological, and quite troubling. The tone of disagreement in our country is so volatile, and this kind of shirking of ideological responsibility is part of the result, but also part of the cause.

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21 minutes ago, eatcorn said:

I'm not sure how this affects equal rights or racial segregation. 

It's ideological, and quite troubling. The tone of disagreement in our country is so volatile, and this kind of shirking of ideological responsibility is part of the result, but also part of the cause.

setting aside living quarters and spaces paid for by the tuition of all university students for students of only one race isn't segregation? telling people they don't have the right to free speech except in small, designated areas is not affecting constitutional rights?

I am sure the segregationists during the civil rights era would have also described their beliefs as an ideological difference as well

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14 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

setting aside living quarters and spaces paid for by the tuition of all university students for students of only one race isn't segregation? telling people they don't have the right to free speech except in small, designated areas is not affecting constitutional rights?

I am sure the segregationists during the civil rights era would have also described their beliefs as an ideological difference as well

I don't think it's quite as big a threat, or as extreme, as the kind of segregation you're referring to, no.

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17 minutes ago, eatcorn said:

I don't think it's quite as big a threat, or as extreme, as the kind of segregation you're referring to, no.

people said that when the whole 'safe space' and 'free speech' zones started and now there are one out of six universities that have these rules that, when challenged, have been declared unconstitutional in a court of law. 

people couldn't see the slippery slope then and they don't see it now

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2 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

people said that when the whole 'safe space' and 'free speech' zones started and now there are one out of six universities that have these rules that, when challenged, have been declared unconstitutional in a court of law. 

people couldn't see the slippery slope then and they don't see it now

Where do you think the slippery slope leads?

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1 minute ago, eatcorn said:

Where do you think the slippery slope leads?

to precisely the two things that I have mentioned :huh: 

the acceptance that it is ok to take away a person's right to free speech or to limit it just because their opinion isn't popular and to justify segregation. are you really going to sit here and say this isn't already happening at universities? and that courts haven't declared these rules limiting free speech to be unconstitutional on the occasions they were challenged?

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10 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

to precisely the two things that I have mentioned :huh: 

the acceptance that it is ok to take away a person's right to free speech or to limit it just because their opinion isn't popular and to justify segregation. are you really going to sit here and say this isn't already happening at universities? and that courts haven't declared these rules limiting free speech to be unconstitutional on the occasions they were challenged?

No, obviously those things are happening, and they're ridiculous.

I just don't believe that it's going to result in any kind of situation that's more robust than a few whiny college kids being illegally protected by a university.

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Much of the problem comes from the faculty of these universities being terrified of the students and the power they wield on campus. No one seems to have the cajones to explain that a big part of higher education is the exchange of ideas and not all of those ideas are going to make you comfortable. It's fascism just wrapped in a different package. 

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22 minutes ago, Gritzblitz 2.0 said:

Much of the problem comes from the faculty of these universities being terrified of the students and the power they wield on campus. No one seems to have the cajones to explain that a big part of higher education is the exchange of ideas and not all of those ideas are going to make you comfortable. It's fascism just wrapped in a different package. 

The problem about faculty being afraid of students is the direct result of administrative changes at colleges the past 15-20 years.  Administrators take a clientelistic view of students - students are the "customers" and faculty are the "customer service representatives" - that gives students actual power over faculty.  

Even faculty who have the cajones to stand up to students can lose their jobs when administration takes the side of the students.  Want to change the culture at colleges?  Change the corporatist mentality of administrators and give faculty more administrative positions instead of hiring the college equivalent of CEO's and corporate executives to run their institutions.

 

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5 minutes ago, Leon Troutsky said:

The problem about faculty being afraid of students is the direct result of administrative changes at colleges the past 15-20 years.  Administrators take a clientelistic view of students - students are the "customers" and faculty are the "customer service representatives" - that gives students actual power over faculty.  

Even faculty who have the cajones to stand up to students can lose their jobs when administration takes the side of the students.  Want to change the culture at colleges?  Change the corporatist mentality of administrators and give faculty more administrative positions instead of hiring the college equivalent of CEO's and corporate executives to run their institutions.

 

A large part of that is because how expensive it is.

 

If I am paying a school 20,30, or even 40k a year I feel like I am able to demand to be catered to more. This leads to the power dynamic because if students are unhappy or wise up then administrators can kiss their salaries goodbye.

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7 minutes ago, Worzone said:

What do you think this teaches them?

Well, I think it teaches a small number of kids that attend 1 in 6 universities, that their feelings are more important than truth and the free exchange of ideas. 

It's a relatively small number of people, and the practice has been ruled unConstitutional. I think the effects will be very limited, and not very long lasting.

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1 hour ago, eatcorn said:

No, obviously those things are happening, and they're ridiculous.

I just don't believe that it's going to result in any kind of situation that's more robust than a few whiny college kids being illegally protected by a university.

you say 'a university' when it is 1 out of every 6?

that blows 'a few whiny college kids' theory out the water man. I am sure it started that way but we are now far past 'a few whiny college kids' at 'a university'

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28 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

you say 'a university' when it is 1 out of every 6?

that blows 'a few whiny college kids' theory out the water man. I am sure it started that way but we are now far past 'a few whiny college kids' at 'a university'

Are we? How many kids are sheltered by safe spaces in 1 of 6 universities?

We agree that it's a problem. We just disagree to what degree.

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1 hour ago, Leon Troutsky said:

The problem about faculty being afraid of students is the direct result of administrative changes at colleges the past 15-20 years.  Administrators take a clientelistic view of students - students are the "customers" and faculty are the "customer service representatives" - that gives students actual power over faculty.  

Even faculty who have the cajones to stand up to students can lose their jobs when administration takes the side of the students.  Want to change the culture at colleges?  Change the corporatist mentality of administrators and give faculty more administrative positions instead of hiring the college equivalent of CEO's and corporate executives to run their institutions.

 

The real issue is the fact the Federal Govt got into the student loan Business and that's when education went from affordable, to outrageous. How is it I went to a huge university in the 80's, they had all the buildings, the athletic resources, and seemingly a perfect campus. The govt gets involved and BAMMO, prices sky rocket and enslave kids for decades with stupid degree's and outrageous debt. So now we see these foolish universities overpay and ensconce teachers who spout off with impunity. The reasoning and laughing off of the effects of the costs is part and parcel of why America said, "We've had enough". The left feels free speech is only for them. They are going to destroy college experiences and they will no longer function with online and small campuses springing up. The idea you need a degree from a Vaunted university is on its way out.

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1 hour ago, Forever Julian said:

A large part of that is because how expensive it is.

 

If I am paying a school 20,30, or even 40k a year I feel like I am able to demand to be catered to more. This leads to the power dynamic because if students are unhappy or wise up then administrators can kiss their salaries goodbye.

That is certainly part of it.  But we see this trend at large public universities where tution is around $10k as well.  The bigger problem has to do with the selection criteria being advertised to students.  Decisions about colleges are made based on amenities ("we just built this giant climbing wall in the student gym!"), athletics, Greeks, and the "college experience".  

Academics is a smaller part of that.  So the colleges are marketing those things, especially the whole "experience" part.  If students flunk out of classes and complain about difficult coursework, they aren't having a satisfactory experience.  So administrators pressure faculty (like placing heavier emphasis on student evaluations) to keep their customer-students satisfied and happy with the product.  That means under-emphasizing things like intellectually challenging students, exposing them to difficult and often uncomfortable topics, and demanding rigorous academic standards.  

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6 hours ago, eatcorn said:

Well, I think it teaches a small number of kids that attend 1 in 6 universities, that their feelings are more important than truth and the free exchange of ideas. 

It's a relatively small number of people, and the practice has been ruled unConstitutional. I think the effects will be very limited, and not very long lasting.

That's a whole lotta money to learn something you can see right here on ABF for free. 

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21 hours ago, eatcorn said:

Well, I think it teaches a small number of kids that attend 1 in 6 universities, that their feelings are more important than truth and the free exchange of ideas. 

It's a relatively small number of people, and the practice has been ruled unConstitutional. I think the effects will be very limited, and not very long lasting.

I will say this....I truly hope you are right and that I am wrong on this

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