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Okay, let's discuss it here - empathy, sympathy, and personal loss.


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15 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

If you want to criticize me, fine.  Just do so based on things that I actually did, not things you want to believe that I did.  

I've told how highly I think of you many times. This does nothing to change that because I believe you absolutely did not mean it in the way it came across to pretty much EVERYONE ELSE.

Just something to consider.

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14 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

He mocked a man whose son died of brain cancer.  He made fun of grieving parents whose son was killed in Iraq...just two days ago.

What did I say that was equivalent to those things?  I expressed sympathy with his situation and hoped that he would reflect upon his loss and show more empathy for people experiencing the same pain in the future.  How is that "stooping to the same level" as mocking people who are grieving the loss of a loved one?

You are excusing your actions because he, in your mind, has done worse. That ain't kosher

 

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1 hour ago, Leon Troutsky said:

You said "stoop to that level".  Again, I neither attacked him nor mocked him.  That is the "level" you are talking about.  

And the perception of everyone in here other than one person says otherwise. Actually every person because even eatcorn saw it as an attack. He just thinks it was justified.

I'm sure you didn't intend it as such but the universal opinion is that it was mocking, crass, and uncalled for. Even posters you respect and who respect you. 

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4 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

And the perception of everyone in here other than one person says otherwise. Actually every person because even eatcorn saw it as an attack. He just thinks it was justified.

I'm sure you didn't intend it as such but the universal opinion is that it was mocking, crass, and uncalled for. Even posters you respect and who respect you. 

Actually, a lot of people think the timing and place was inappropriate but thought the point was okay.  A lot of other people realize that it's not an attack but a call for reflection.  And probably a larger number saw it as some kind of attack   But what nobody can objectively say is that I was mocking him or making fun of his loss.   It's objectively false to say that I was "stooping to that level".  

At the end of the day, though, I don't care how people see it or what they think of me for saying it.  There's only one person who I hope sees it and takes it to heart.  

 

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2 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

Actually, a lot of people think the timing and place was inappropriate but thought the point was okay.  A lot of other people realize that it's not an attack but a call for reflection.  And probably a larger number saw it as some kind of attack   But what nobody can objectively say is that I was mocking him or making fun of his loss.   It's objectively false to say that I was "stooping to that level".  

At the end of the day, though, I don't care how people see it or what they think of me for saying it.  There's only one person who I hope sees it and takes it to heart.  

 

nobody has a problem with the point. we all, other than eatcorn, think that it was a ****** up thing to do in that thread at that time

but at the end of the day if you don't care about dancing on someone's grave, then this thread is pretty much pointless

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2 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

Actually, a lot of people think the timing and place was inappropriate but thought the point was okay.  A lot of other people realize that it's not an attack but a call for reflection.  And probably a larger number saw it as some kind of attack   But what nobody can objectively say is that I was mocking him or making fun of his loss.   It's objectively false to say that I was "stooping to that level".  

At the end of the day, though, I don't care how people see it or what they think of me for saying it.  There's only one person who I hope sees it and takes it to heart.  

 

 

What seems to be lost on you is that in your effort to "teach a lesson about empathy" you picked the worst opportunity possible to do it.  Context means everything.  If he comes on this board and sees a thread with condolences for his loss, and all posts but yours are true to the threads intention, your "lesson" will likely fall on deaf ears.

If he makes light of someone's loss in the future, your lesson would be much more appropriate at that time.  Giving him time to process his own grief may give him the perspective he needs to actually receive your intent.  I don't know you, so I may be wrong, but it seems like you had to get your lesson in where you could for your sake, not for his benefit, and the optics of it are awful.

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38 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

nobody has a problem with the point. we all, other than eatcorn, think that it was a ****** up thing to do in that thread at that time

but at the end of the day if you don't care about dancing on someone's grave, then this thread is pretty much pointless

You keep saying s*** like this that indicates you don't really understand - or don't want to understand - what this was about.  "Stooping to that level", "dancing on someone's grave"...none of which I have done.  

Again, for about the tenth time, I did not make fun of his grief as he did with the Khan family.  I did not mock his loss as he did Joe Biden's son.  I did not joyfully pronounce "I told you so" as he did regarding the victims of a terrorist attack.  

In response to those things that he did, I pointed out that the pain he is feeling now is the same pain that he has mocked multiple times just in the past few months alone.  I hoped that he could find it in his heart to demonstrate some empathy with others suffering similar losses in the future.  

That is not "dancing on someone's grave".  That is not "stooping to that level".  Again, if you want to criticize me then fine.  But make sure it's for something that I actually said, not something that you think that I said or want to believe that I said.

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37 minutes ago, Return of the Gaucho said:

 

What seems to be lost on you is that in your effort to "teach a lesson about empathy" you picked the worst opportunity possible to do it.  Context means everything.  If he comes on this board and sees a thread with condolences for his loss, and all posts but yours are true to the threads intention, your "lesson" will likely fall on deaf ears.

If he makes light of someone's loss in the future, your lesson would be much more appropriate at that time.  Giving him time to process his own grief may give him the perspective he needs to actually receive your intent.  I don't know you, so I may be wrong, but it seems like you had to get your lesson in where you could for your sake, not for his benefit, and the optics of it are awful.

I understand perfectly the point about timing and context.  I simply disagree with it.  As I've mentioned many times in this thread, waiting a week or two and then throwing the loss in his face then would just reopen old wounds.  That seems cruel and unnecessary to me.  But I understand that others view it differently and respect those different perspectives.  If it's a disagreement about timing and context, then I understand the criticism.  I disagree, but I understand and respect it.  

And it wasn't even "teaching a lesson".  It was simply hoping that he would use this loss to reflect on his mockery of other people experiencing the same grief and that on reflection he would stop doing that in the future.  

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I don't really know the entire context of what you guys are posting about. I will say this. The misdeeds of others never justify compromising your own values. 

Personally, I would not try to make somebody reflect on the hurt that they might have caused when they themselves are hurting. Golden Rule. I don't mind someone enlightening me on how I should be a better man, but that enlightenment does not need to be pushed on me when I'm going through a difficult situation. 

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5 hours ago, pzummo said:

I don't really know the entire context of what you guys are posting about. I will say this. The misdeeds of others never justify compromising your own values. 

Personally, I would not try to make somebody reflect on the hurt that they might have caused when they themselves are hurting. Golden Rule. I don't mind someone enlightening me on how I should be a better man, but that enlightenment does not need to be pushed on me when I'm going through a difficult situation. 

The entire point I was making was precisely about the Golden Rule and treating others who are experiencing grief the way that one would want to be treated in that same situation.  

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7 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

The entire point I was making was precisely about the Golden Rule and treating others who are experiencing grief the way that one would want to be treated in that same situation.  

The impression I got was you were trying to teach someone else to follow the Golden Rule while they were in a difficult situation. That is not you following the Golden Rule.

For example, if you are mourning, do you want someone reminding you of your misdeeds or using that moment to teach you something? Probably not. If you are done mourning, you might want someone to help you reflect on how you treated others so that you may become a better perspn. You don't want people doing that while you are dealing with a difficult situation.

That is how you follow the Golden Rule. In all things. This is a common misconception by Christians. Following the Golden Rule is how we govern our own actions, not other peoples. Their actions do not justify mistreating them or anyone else.

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1 hour ago, pzummo said:

The impression I got was you were trying to teach someone else to follow the Golden Rule while they were in a difficult situation. That is not you following the Golden Rule.

For example, if you are mourning, do you want someone reminding you of your misdeeds or using that moment to teach you something? Probably not. If you are done mourning, you might want someone to help you reflect on how you treated others so that you may become a better perspn. You don't want people doing that while you are dealing with a difficult situation.

That is how you follow the Golden Rule. In all things. This is a common misconception by Christians. Following the Golden Rule is how we govern our own actions, not other peoples. Their actions do not justify mistreating them or anyone else.

If I had mocked and made funof people who lost their sons just a day earlier, then I would have no problem with someone pointing that out as a reminder to me.  And I would not want someone throwing my loss in my face a week or two later and reopening those wounds.  

I'm not sure if your objection is the point about not mocking people who are grieving for their lost loved ones or the timing of it. If it's the timing, then read through this thread because I've explained that very clearly.  Maybe you disagree, but it's pretty clear that I thought the timing was the least harmful way to address it.  

If the objection is the point about not mocking people who are grieving, then it's kind of weird to me to say, "you should follow the Golden Rule and not remind people why it's wrong to treat others the way they would not want to be treated themselves."  

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8 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

If I had mocked and made funof people who lost their sons just a day earlier, then I would have no problem with someone pointing that out as a reminder to me.  And I would not want someone throwing my loss in my face a week or two later and reopening those wounds.  

I'm not sure if your objection is the point about not mocking people who are grieving for their lost loved ones or the timing of it. If it's the timing, then read through this thread because I've explained that very clearly.  Maybe you disagree, but it's pretty clear that I thought the timing was the least harmful way to address it.  

If the objection is the point about not mocking people who are grieving, then it's kind of weird to me to say, "you should follow the Golden Rule and not remind people why it's wrong to treat others the way they would not want to be treated themselves."  

Let me put this a different way. I am Christian and I believe in the Golden Rule, as demonstrated and supported by stories of Jesus. When Jesus found people in the act of committing sin, he made them aware of it. See the story of his anger at those committing sin in a house of worship. When Jesus found people with past sins, he forgave them for repenting, but never reminded them or forced their repentance. Even when the soldiers were done torturing him and he was mounted to the cross, he did not feel the need to remind them of their evil deeds. In fact, he asked for God to forgive them, repenting for them.

Jesus understood that, more often than not, humans commit sin because they either don't know any better or retaliation/revenge of sins committed against them. Neither of those reasons warrant making someone feel worse in a time of despair. That is why we should not use other people's sins as justification for compromising our own morals, as that is a continuous cycle of sin.

You asked for people to confirm whether or not you did the right thing. That is why I am giving you my opinion and not him.

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