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Okay, let's discuss it here - empathy, sympathy, and personal loss.


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Guest marla_mulder

Personally, I feel we should be able to have empathy for anyone suffering a loss.

With that said, it's easier to be a little careless with our words when it comes to people we don't know....whether it's Joe Biden, Prince, or some nebulous group of Muslims "out there." Does that make it right? No. But check out any article on any celebrity death (especially if it's drug related) and you will see all kinds of inappropriate comments that these people would never say to these people or their families in person, but it's easier to do that online because we don't personalize it as much. 

As sad as it is, I know I've had to try to stop personalizing some of the horrific stuff you see and hear in the news...otherwise, I'm the kind of person who will let it bother me all day and keep me up at night....and that's not healthy either. 

So while Biden and whoever else are essentially strangers that we see on TV, DH is someone we all know in some compacity and interact with frequently. That makes it more personal to a lot of us than what someone said on the Internet about Joe Biden.

I saw some of the personal stuff that went back and forth between HM and DH. If HM can be big enough to write one of the best condolence messages in that thread with their history, I think the rest of us should be able to at least do that. 

What was said about Biden or whoever may not have been right, but I don't consider that to be a really personal attack. Calling someone out that you DO know comes across as very personal and looks worse. (For the record, I don't think you meant to come across that way, but the appearance is still bad).

 

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1 hour ago, Leon Troutsky said:

I have expressed sympathy for DH's loss several times already.  I have not mocked his loss nor made fun of him for that.  I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

Leon I think you are generally a good and intelligent person. You have to know that much of what happens in life is about perception and the near universal perception here was that it was a crass thing to say in the that thread and that it came across horribly

has there been times that DH has been horribly inappropriate and callous? most certainly

however you just lost any sort of moral high ground by stooping to that level

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2 hours ago, marla_mulder said:

Personally, I feel we should be able to have empathy for anyone suffering a loss.

With that said, it's easier to be a little careless with our words when it comes to people we don't know....whether it's Joe Biden, Prince, or some nebulous group of Muslims "out there." Doesn't that make it right? No. But check out any article on any celebrity death (especially if it's drug related) and you will see all kinds I'd inappropriate comments that these people would never say to these people or their families in person, but it's easier to do that online because we don't personalize it as much. 

As sad as it is, I know I've had to try to stop personalizing some of the horrific stuff you see and hear in the news...otherwise, I'm the kind of person who will let it bother me all day and keep me up and night....and that's not healthy either. 

So while Biden and whoever else are essentially strangers that we see on TV, DH is someone we all know in some compacity and interact with frequently. That makes it more personal to a lot of people than what someone said on the Internet about Joe Biden.

I saw some of the personal stuff that went back and forth between HM and DH. If HM can be big enough to write one of the best condolence messages in that thread with their history, I think the rest of us should be able to at least do that. 

What was said about Biden or whoever may not have been right, but I don't consider that to be a really personal attack. Calling someone out that you DO know comes across as very personal and looks worse. (For the record, I don't think you meant to come across that way, but the appearance is still bad).

 

Thank you for a very thoughtful post.  

You are right that it is easier to mock people suffering a personal loss when you do not know them or when they are a distant "other".  And that is why it is even more important to show empathy in those situations...precisely because it is so easy to dismiss their suffering and grief because you don't know them.

But why is DH's loss any more personal to us than Khan's parents or Joe Biden's loss of their son?  Very few people here have actually met DH in real life.  Only a few people have even PM'd with him.  It's certainly not because he's part of a community of people here.  His behavior on the boards has been reprehensible...he broke his promises when he made a bet, he lied to the boards about his identity, he has engaged in "bait and report" behavior trying to get people banned.  I certainly don't consider him a friend, or even a personal acquaintance.  He's just some guy who has continually lied to the people here and treated the people on the boards, including people he once called friends, like s*** for years.  I don't understand why his loss would be more personal to me or anyone else than the loss felt by the Khan's over their son...people whose grief DH mocked and laughed at just two days ago.  You want to pretend like he is some real life buddy after the s*** he has pulled for years?  Sorry, I don't have the capacity for that level of dishonesty and insincerity.  If that's a personal failing then so be it.  

But ultimately, I showed DH the compassion and sympathy that he did not show to others.  Whatever anybody thinks of my post in that thread, I never mocked him nor made fun of his loss.  All I did was hoped that he would begin to show the sympathy and empathy that he was shown by people on these boards...kindnesses that he refused to show to people grieving the loss of their loved ones.  

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1 hour ago, Dago 3.0 said:

Leon I think you are generally a good and intelligent person. You have to know that much of what happens in life is about perception and the near universal perception here was that it was a crass thing to say in the that thread and that it came across horribly

has there been times that DH has been horribly inappropriate and callous? most certainly

however you just lost any sort of moral high ground by stooping to that level

He mocked a man whose son died of brain cancer.  He made fun of grieving parents whose son was killed in Iraq...just two days ago.

What did I say that was equivalent to those things?  I expressed sympathy with his situation and hoped that he would reflect upon his loss and show more empathy for people experiencing the same pain in the future.  How is that "stooping to the same level" as mocking people who are grieving the loss of a loved one?

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10 hours ago, HMFIC said:

Another lecture from "Socrates".  Get it through your stubborn head that this is not a classroom, and we are not your students, who will never question your wisdom, lest they be disciplined.   You were WRONG to LECTURE DH on a thread dedicated to his loss. Now stop the lame excuses and admit that you were wrong.

Wow . . . either you had some HORRIBLE teachers or you have never been near a College classroom.  Maybe I'm just spoiled because I went to a small liberal arts college, but provocative and challenging discussion was a pretty regular part of my education. 

It should be patently obvious by his participation here that he doesn't mind intellectual challenges.  Why would you think he would behave differently in a classroom? 

Your post tells me MUCH more about you than it does about Troutsky.

BTW, Going to the substantive post . . . . It's tough.

1) I think the timing and placement was counter productive

2) That being said, I don't think it mean spirited.  To the contrary, I do believe that Trout, in his heart, felt like it was the best opportunity to make his point about the importance of empathy for precisely the reason that it WAS a time when compassion and sympathy is what should have been shown. 

3) I respect the effort but consider it misguided because the Snake has never shown a capacity for self reflection and considers any slight a deep insult that triggers hostility.  For Snake, the attempt to actually IMPROVE his character was actually MORE likely to trigger a defensive posture and hostile reaction than if he were not in a vulnerable, painful place.

4) So bad more, Trout, but let's not be ugly about it.  I believe Trout was sincere in that he was trying to help Snake, not just take a shot.

5) I STILL think Trout should edit his remaining post to ONLY reflect his heart felt condolescnes.  Stop where Silent Bob said stop.

6) Lostone, When Falcons Win, Silent Bob, SpongeDAd, G-Dawg, HMFIC, PLEASE delete your discussion on this issue from that thread or simply edit to reflect simple condolences.  I will admit (again) that there were times when I was down about my wife's situation and I would be on the Board, and go back to the Ethics thread and the support so many of you shared was sincerely a comfort.  Please don't undermine the comfort you can provide by posting distracting and and unrelated opinions. . . . even though they are valid, it's not what is good for Snake.

 

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8 hours ago, holymoses said:

Wow . . . either you had some HORRIBLE teachers or you have never been near a College classroom.  Maybe I'm just spoiled because I went to a small liberal arts college, but provocative and challenging discussion was a pretty regular part of my education. 

It should be patently obvious by his participation here that he doesn't mind intellectual challenges.  Why would you think he would behave differently in a classroom? 

Your post tells me MUCH more about you than it does about Troutsky.

BTW, Going to the substantive post . . . . It's tough.

1) I think the timing and placement was counter productive

2) That being said, I don't think it mean spirited.  To the contrary, I do believe that Trout, in his heart, felt like it was the best opportunity to make his point about the importance of empathy for precisely the reason that it WAS a time when compassion and sympathy is what should have been shown. 

3) I respect the effort but consider it misguided because the Snake has never shown a capacity for self reflection and considers any slight a deep insult that triggers hostility.  For Snake, the attempt to actually IMPROVE his character was actually MORE likely to trigger a defensive posture and hostile reaction than if he were not in a vulnerable, painful place.

4) So bad more, Trout, but let's not be ugly about it.  I believe Trout was sincere in that he was trying to help Snake, not just take a shot.

 

As we've talked about in private, I disagree about the timing and placement, but I do understand the arguments being made in that regard.  I will say that 3) is the best argument made so far against my post.  But frankly, if pointing this out now does not have an influence then I doubt there is any time when it will.  Others have suggested that I should have waited awhile.  To me, it seems cruel and disrespectful to bring this up later.  That's just throwing it in his face and opening old wounds.  That would have only added to the pain and I'm not sure it would have triggered any less defensiveness than it would have pointing it out now.  

It's funny because whatever my differences or personal views of Snake, I have never tried to hurt the guy personally or wished him ill in real life.  And there have been times, some of them recent, where I had his back when people wanted to post his personal identity and information on the boards (the moderators can confirm this, btw).  I was more concerned about how posting his personal information could endanger his family, frankly, but the point is that I've looked out for him despite all of the harsh criticism that I've thrown at him.  So it makes no sense that I would just take a gratuitous shot at him when he's going through a personal hardship.  

Maybe the miscommunication here is that I'm a freak weirdo who can be harshly critical of someone's behavior while simultaneously wishing them all happiness and success in life, meaning both of those with equal sincerity. I don't like the guy or how he's acted on the boards and I am not shy about criticizing him for those things.  But it doesn't mean that I take any joy in his loss or the grief experienced by him or his family.  While everyone is focused on him, for example, I think that we overlooked the fact that DH's children just lost their grandfather.  That's not something that would bring pleasure to any decent human being.  So whatever I think of him or his behavior on the boards - and whatever criticisms I have regarding those things - I genuinely only wish him and his family happiness and joy in this life.  I can feel sadness for his loss and simultaneously hope that some good can come of this in the form of greater empathy in the future for others who have experienced the same grief and pain he is unfortunately going through now.  

 

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There's no indication that snake even has shown up since so it does kinda come off as the rest of us being the audience of your comments vs snake being the audience.  I would suggest your message being critical of snake might have been better stated in pm to him and publicly just show condolences. 

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2 minutes ago, Joremarid said:

There's no indication that snake even has shown up since so it does kinda come off as the rest of us being the audience of your comments vs snake being the audience.  I would suggest your message being critical of snake might have been better stated in pm to him and publicly just show condolences. 

That's a very fair point.  Part of that is the fact that this thread was created because people wanted to discuss my post in the condolences thread.  So in that regard, this thread is intended as a discussion among the rest of us instead of DH being the audience.  But your point about a PM versus a public comment in the other thread is well taken. 

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Well reading the name calling done by some on this board. I have got to say that I have never seen this poster treated with any kind of empathy. In fact I would consider a good many here nothing but bullies. Now why someone would want much empathy from anyone on this board is beyond me and perhaps a break is actually what they need. Maybe it is time to take the red pill.

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8 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

He mocked a man whose son died of brain cancer.  He made fun of grieving parents whose son was killed in Iraq...just two days ago.

What did I say that was equivalent to those things?  I expressed sympathy with his situation and hoped that he would reflect upon his loss and show more empathy for people experiencing the same pain in the future.  How is that "stooping to the same level" as mocking people who are grieving the loss of a loved one?

Why would anyone have sympathy for Joe Biden? He probably sent more American soldiers to their deaths fighting against people who have done nothing to the USA than he has done anything good. I dont know Trout or DH but I do know the politicians in this country do not deserve any sympathy for anything. Both parties end results have been exactly the same. More debt borrowed from the money changers and more bloodshed in the middle east. Instead of fighting each other over the phony party double speak that never changes the ultimate course of our country, off of the perpetual debt and war path we are on, we should be discussing how to eliminate the federal reserve and removing the communists who have been dividing us from within for quite some time now.

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1 hour ago, Ben Day Hoe said:

Why would anyone have sympathy for Joe Biden? He probably sent more American soldiers to their deaths fighting against people who have done nothing to the USA than he has done anything good. I dont know Trout or DH but I do know the politicians in this country do not deserve any sympathy for anything. Both parties end results have been exactly the same. More debt borrowed from the money changers and more bloodshed in the middle east. Instead of fighting each other over the phony party double speak that never changes the ultimate course of our country, off of the perpetual debt and war path we are on, we should be discussing how to eliminate the federal reserve and removing the communists who have been dividing us from within for quite some time now.

Oh for ****'s sake. 

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1 hour ago, Ben Day Hoe said:

Why would anyone have sympathy for Joe Biden? He probably sent more American soldiers to their deaths fighting against people who have done nothing to the USA than he has done anything good. I dont know Trout or DH but I do know the politicians in this country do not deserve any sympathy for anything. Both parties end results have been exactly the same. More debt borrowed from the money changers and more bloodshed in the middle east. Instead of fighting each other over the phony party double speak that never changes the ultimate course of our country, off of the perpetual debt and war path we are on, we should be discussing how to eliminate the federal reserve and removing the communists who have been dividing us from within for quite some time now.

I think you're missing the point. Biden has lost his whole family, and human nature is to show empathy towards your fellow human. This is nothing political. Biden didn't start a draft to force anyone into the military. Most people like myself joined for the almost free education, not to fight. But you have to realize that war can break out at any minute and you go from the classroom to the battlefield. 

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Just now, SpongeDad said:

I think you're missing the point. Biden has lost his whole family, and human nature is to show empathy towards your fellow human. This is nothing political. Biden didn't start a draft to force anyone into the military. Most people like myself joined for the almost free education, not to fight. But you have to realize that war can break out at any minute and you go from the classroom to the battlefield. 

thats fair

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5 minutes ago, SpongeDad said:

I think you're missing the point. Biden has lost his whole family, and human nature is to show empathy towards your fellow human. This is nothing political. Biden didn't start a draft to force anyone into the military. Most people like myself joined for the almost free education, not to fight. But you have to realize that war can break out at any minute and you go from the classroom to the battlefield. 

id be willing to bet biden voted for a lot of wars and debt though

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5 minutes ago, Ben Day Hoe said:

id be willing to bet biden voted for a lot of wars and debt though

I really don't know his voting voting record. But joining the military is an individual choice where you are subject to war regardless if the president/sentors are war mongers. Shìt happens.

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18 minutes ago, SpongeDad said:

I really don't know his voting voting record. But joining the military is an individual choice where you are subject to war regardless if the president/sentors are war mongers. Shìt happens.

Thank goodness I opted not to join the military. Our leaders send young men to die at the drop of a hat. Two million Syrians are without water right now. What did they do to deserve it? Libya Iraq Afgan how are those people better off now since we liberated them? How much better off is America now that legions of people have suffered our bombings? 

Edited to add - I dont think that all wars are bad or not worth fighting for. Vietnam was against Communism and all the horrors it entails. I felt like we needed to fight for Vietnam and the battle has resulted in a long prosperous time in Asia and through out the world. The island building and domination of the south China sea has me very concerned now though.

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10 minutes ago, Ben Day Hoe said:

Thank goodness I opted not to join the military. Our leaders send young men to die at the drop of a hat. Two million Syrians are without water right now. What did they do to deserve it? Libya Iraq Afgan how are those people better off now since we liberated them? How much better off is America now that legions of people have suffered our bombings? 

I agree that our bombing hasn't helped anything but I also know that even if America never got involved, they would still be killing each other. We just give them a common enemy, ourselves.

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