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Okay, let's discuss it here - empathy, sympathy, and personal loss.


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How do you react to somebody with a years-long history of acting monstrously towards people who differ politically after finding out that person suffered a personal loss themselves?

Remember, this is a person who made fun of Joe Biden's son dying of cancer, saying something along the lines of "oh liberals, it's always for the children".  

This is a person who just 24 hours ago mocked the grieving parents of a fallen soldier, accusing them of being bought by the Clinton campaign and referring to the father as, "the duped dad of an American Hero solider who died fighting the very Scum his dad is paid to get into America."

This is a person who has, over the past several years, acted callously and indifferently to the personal hardships and problems of people he has met in real life.  

Do you just forget that this person has done all of these things (plus a ton more things that I haven't even mentioned)?  Do you pretend this person is suddenly part of the "community" on the boards despite his horrific behavior over the years?

And what is the proper time to point out the conflict between the sympathy this person has received and the callous lack of empathy he has shown to others in the similar situation?  

My own view is that you point it out at that moment in a sincere manner while showing sympathy for the personal loss.  Nobody should wish ill on others and the loss of a parent, child, or other loved one is a heart-wrenching ordeal.  As I said in the other thread, I am deeply sympathic to what DH is going through and I am saddened by his loss.  

But that loss does not change how he has behaved on these boards.  It does not change the fact that he has mocked people who have lost their children just because they disagree with him politically.  DH's behavior has been contemptable and disgusting.   My hope, as I said in the other thread, is that on reflection he will begin in the future to show the empathy and sympathy that he has been shown by the board community.   That would be a positive outcome of what is a very tragic loss.  

As for timing, people have criticized me for not waiting some unspecified amount of time.  As I've mentioned to people in PM, would it be better for me to wait a week or a week and a half, and then throw his personal loss back in his face?   That strikes me as even more disrespectful than mentioning it immediately.  What is the proper time to bring up a distasteful topic?   Or perhaps there is no good time to bring it up and we just all pretend like we have been friends all along.  That is insincere and dishonest, to me.  I do not consider him part of the message board community - he has actively tried to undermine AFB by baiting people with personal attacks and then reporting their responses to the moderators.   He has lied to people he once considered friends in real life.  He has lied to the boards and reneged on his promises.  That is not a friend.  That is not a member of this community.  

None of that negates the sadness I feel for his loss.  None of that means he should not receive sympathy from the boards for that loss.  None of that means we should not feel for him and his family during this period of time.  Nor does it mean that we pretend like we're all buddies now and like none of the stuff he's done on the boards happened.  

I realize people are going to disagree with a lot of this, probably very strongly.  That's fine.  I've heard those disagreements and I respect those alternative views.  But at the end of the day, I brought up a distasteful point in a manner that I thought was most respectful given the context of the situation and most sincere given the history of this person's behavior over the past several years.  I also made this thread to discuss this instead of disrespecting his loss by dragging it out in the other thread.  Flame away if you want, but just understand that however unpopular my approach to this was, it is the approach that I genuinely felt was most honest, sincere, and respectful given the distasteful nature of the topic.  

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This pretty much underscores and defines the line between online and personal personae. snake acts the way he does because there are no consequences. He has less tact, class, logic, and thought in his posts than almost anyone I have encountered. He's mocked people for everything you can mock someone for. Frankly, if he were more intelligent, I would consider him one of the few genuinely terrible people I've encountered. He continues to behave this way because there are no consequences for his actions.

There's just no real way to hold someone accountable for their actions on the internet, but I do think it's completely appropriate for someone to point out that the pain he's feeling is the same pain he's mocked. The only thing that makes this different is that he's actually here to hear your suggestion that he practice even a modicum of reflection. Your suggestion has actual real world consequences.

I have no problem with you pointing that out to him. None at all.

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1 minute ago, eatcorn said:

This pretty much underscores and defines the line between online and personal personae. snake acts the way he does because there are no consequences. He has less tact, class, logic, and thought in his posts than almost anyone I have encountered. He's mocked people for everything you can mock someone for. Frankly, if he were more intelligent, I would consider him one of the few genuinely terrible people I've encountered. He continues to behave this way because there are no consequences for his actions.

There's just no real way to hold someone accountable for their actions on the internet, but I do think it's completely appropriate for someone to point out that the pain he's feeling is the same pain he's mocked. The only thing that makes this different is that he's actually here to hear your suggestion that he practice even a modicum of reflection. Your suggestion has actual real world consequences.

I have no problem with you pointing that out to him. None at all.

The bolded part summarized my intentions and my thoughts on this exactly.   Wish I could have put it that succinctly and simply.  Thanks.  

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One time I mentioned a friend of mine had a glass eye because he was shot in the face by the jealous, crazy ex boyfriend of a girl he was seeing, and snake pm'd me to say that he had written a check out to my friend and wanted to know where he could send it.

I explained to snake that the shooting had occurred a decade ago, and my friend was doing okay now.

So say what you want about snake, but he does have some capacity for empathy.

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3 minutes ago, kicker said:

There are plenty of ways to hold someone accountable for the things they say on the Internet, especially when you know that person's real name. Unfortunately doing most of those ways get you banned here.  

And that goes directly to another aspect of this...Snake would never make the comments against Islam in real life that he's made on the boards.  It would virtually destroy his professional career.   As BO mentioned, he's got the capacity to show kindness to people.  But there's something about the combination of politics and these boards that causes him to throw all decency out the window and do things like mock grieving parents who lost their sons or attack Islam in very bigoted ways.  I used to defend him by pointing out how different he acts in real life compared to the boards, but over the past couple of years I find myself leaning towards the view that his behavior on the boards is a reflection of his true character.  One that he apparently is very good at hiding from people in real life.  

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Just now, HMFIC said:

Another lecture from "Socrates".  Get it through your stubborn head that this is not a classroom, and we are not your students, who will never question your wisdom, lest they be disciplined.   You were WRONG to LECTURE DH on a thread dedicated to his loss. Now stop the lame excuses and admit that you were wrong.

I don't believe that I am wrong.  Eatcorn explained it best - the pain that DH is experiencing right now is the same pain that he has mocked.  I merely pointed that out and hoped that DH would begin to show the empathy and sympathy in the future that he has been shown on these boards.  That would be a positive outcome of a very tragic situation.   

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14 minutes ago, HMFIC said:

Another lecture from "Socrates".  Get it through your stubborn head that this is not a classroom, and we are not your students, who will never question your wisdom, lest they be disciplined.   You were WRONG to LECTURE DH on a thread dedicated to his loss. Now stop the lame excuses and admit that you were wrong.

And you are an *** for continuing to disparage other posters based on their professions.  

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1 hour ago, Leon Troutsky said:

Would it have been more respectful to continue discussing this in the other thread?

Why does it have to be discussed at all?  I think what you did was inappropriate and now you want to continue that impropriety in a new thread?  It is the Internet, and you two don't agree on much, but you insist on attacking his character (real or imagined) on the Internet.  I have never seen him try and hurt you on here?  I just don't get why you go after him the way you do because you two think differently about things? 

This is not a slight on you, this is just the way I perceive this situation.  Put another way, I have different views with some posters and we clash from time to time, but I try engage them as fairly as I can without trying to attack them as a person or calling them names.  I wouldn't have gone after another poster in a condolence thread.  Nor, when called out about it, start another thread trying to rekindle the same conversation.  That is just me, everyone is different, if you feel that is something you need to do, it will not be me that stands in your way...just my 0.02 cents

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Trout, whether you agree or disagree with DH and his mockery, you chose not to take the high road in his time of mourning after losing a parent. Instead you made an indirect "told you so" karma-like thread. Say what you want about DH and his mockery, but if you're going to lecture about right and wrong, then practice what you preach.

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2 hours ago, holymoses said:

Good on moving this here. 

PLEASE go back to the other thread and remove anything referencing anything other than sincere condoloscences.

EVERYONE

 

 

As you requested, I deleted all but the original post and added a note that this thread is available for those who want to discuss it.  

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1 hour ago, SpongeDad said:

Trout, whether you agree or disagree with DH and his mockery, you chose not to take the high road in his time of mourning after losing a parent. Instead you made an indirect "told you so" karma-like thread. Say what you want about DH and his mockery, but if you're going to lecture about right and wrong, then practice what you preach.

There was no "told you so" implied, suggested, or otherwise intended.  There was no "karma-like" attitude.  You are reading into this things that were never said nor implied nor suggested.

Here's the problem with those who are upset about my point...which DH are we addressing on these boards?  Some of you want us to be sensitive to the real life person behind the keyboard while ignoring the utterly disgusting and contemptible things that same person has written on these boards.  The person behind that keyboard has mocked the death of Joe Biden's son and made fun of the grieving parents of a fallen soldier.  And now somehow the person who wrote those disgusting things just disappears because the person behind the keyboard experienced a personal loss.

On the boards, he has displayed a sociopathic tendency to ridicule people who are grieving for their loved ones.  If that is the true character and morals of the person behind that keyboard then that person *needs* to understand that you never mock or make fun of people who are experiencing the same pain he is feeling now.   If his mockery of people grieving for the loss of their son is just an act he puts on behind the anonymity of the boards then he needs to reconcile the disgusting, hateful things he posts with his real-life personality.  Mocking someone else's grief - the same grief he is experiencing now - is not fodder for internet gamesmanship or political banter.  

As I said in that original post and have repeated since then, I am sorry for his loss and am saddened by his family's grieving.  I truly hope that in the future he can, in a moment of self-reflection, begin to show some empathy and sympathy to people who experienced the same pain he is experiencing now.  

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2 hours ago, Joremarid said:

I think pointing this out in the way it went down,  then continuing it, is kinda like trump engaging the khan family.  There really is no good way to do it. I'd have left it alone.

I made this thread to prevent the discussion from sidetracking the condolences thread.  I took the discussion to PM with a few people, but ultimately people kept responding in that thread so I decided to offer a different outlet for people to talk about it.  

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3 hours ago, HMFIC said:

Another lecture from "Socrates".  Get it through your stubborn head that this is not a classroom, and we are not your students, who will never question your wisdom, lest they be disciplined.   You were WRONG to LECTURE DH on a thread dedicated to his loss. Now stop the lame excuses and admit that you were wrong.

You also attacked the grieving parents of a fallen soldier, and you did so based on false stereotypes about their religion.  Yet here you are complaining about people not being sensitive enough when a person is grieving for a loved one.  

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3 hours ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

Why does it have to be discussed at all?  I think what you did was inappropriate and now you want to continue that impropriety in a new thread?  It is the Internet, and you two don't agree on much, but you insist on attacking his character (real or imagined) on the Internet.  I have never seen him try and hurt you on here?  I just don't get why you go after him the way you do because you two think differently about things? 

This is not a slight on you, this is just the way I perceive this situation.  Put another way, I have different views with some posters and we clash from time to time, but I try engage them as fairly as I can without trying to attack them as a person or calling them names.  I wouldn't have gone after another poster in a condolence thread.  Nor, when called out about it, start another thread trying to rekindle the same conversation.  That is just me, everyone is different, if you feel that is something you need to do, it will not be me that stands in your way...just my 0.02 cents

You seem to think that this is about political differences of opinion.  It's not.  I limited my original comment completely to the point about mocking people who are grieving the loss of a loved one.  

I started this thread, and deleted all but the original post in that other thread, at the request of several people on the boards.  I agree with them that dragging out this conversation in that thread was disrespectful.  But the point is that starting this thread was not my idea, even if I agree it was the proper course of action.  

I suppose the main question here is why are you so concerned with the feelings of somebody who has displayed an utter lack of empathy or sympathy for others who have lost their loved ones?  You seem more concerned about me hoping that he engages in some self-reflection about his contemptible behavior on the boards than you are about the contemptible behavior itself.  

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Be the best person you can regardless of that persons actions toward you and everyone else.  Sometimes that is difficult to do but it is the best course of action nonetheless. A little tact, compassion, and empathy goes a long way in reaching even a hard hearted person. 

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1 hour ago, Leon Troutsky said:

You seem to think that this is about political differences of opinion.  It's not.  I limited my original comment completely to the point about mocking people who are grieving the loss of a loved one.  

I started this thread, and deleted all but the original post in that other thread, at the request of several people on the boards.  I agree with them that dragging out this conversation in that thread was disrespectful.  But the point is that starting this thread was not my idea, even if I agree it was the proper course of action.  

I suppose the main question here is why are you so concerned with the feelings of somebody who has displayed an utter lack of empathy or sympathy for others who have lost their loved ones?  You seem more concerned about me hoping that he engages in some self-reflection about his contemptible behavior on the boards than you are about the contemptible behavior itself.  

After my 0.02 cents you really did not have to reply.  I will say this though now that you dragged it on, you don't know when to leave well enough alone with your own contemptible behavior in both threads.  Consider this my last response regarding this matter.  

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25 minutes ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

After my 0.02 cents you really did not have to reply.  I will say this though now that you dragged it on, you don't know when to leave well enough alone with your own contemptible behavior in both threads.  Consider this my last response regarding this matter.  

I pointed out that people should have empathy and sympathy for those grieving the loss of a loved one instead of mocking them and making fun of them.  You call that contemptible behavior, but apparently have said nothing about the person who actually mocked those grieving the loss of a loved one.  

I find your standards to be...strange.

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22 minutes ago, Leon Troutsky said:

I pointed out that people should have empathy and sympathy for those grieving the loss of a loved one instead of mocking them and making fun of them. 

Will you listen to what you are saying??? And again, practice what you preach. You're a fckin hypocrite.

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