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19 minutes ago, pzummo said:

Mechanic. Cook. Fedex. Software developer. Web developer. Network engineer. Call Center first tier support. Telemarketing. Car salesman. 

You do not need a college education for any career path. It helps to have one, but it is not required. I found a job for $10/hour when I was 20 working in a Call Center. I learned the details of what I was taking calls for, worked my way up to tier 2, tier 3 support, and into an $80k per year engineering job by the time I was 23 without a college degree. I didn't get my college degree until I was 25 because I put my career first and took night classes. 

Based on personal experience, I went from being a mechanic at Goodyear making $8/hour to an $80k per year engineering job without a college degree. It was extremely difficult. I focused on outworking every person that sat on their degree thinking that made them worth more than me. 

And FTR, in the industry I am in, we value certifications more than any college degree. My college degree added $0 to my salary. Obtaining my CCIE added $$$ to my salary. So forgive me if I call bull**** on all of these excuses about not being able to work in a freaking plant and there not being jobs for people with just a HS diploma. 

Good for you, bootstraps, blah blah. I kicked *** too, now let's look at the actual numbers.

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Back in the good ole days when a college degree nearly guaranteed a career, there were a lot fewer people going to college.  The percentage of the population that has a college degree has nearly doubled since the 60's.  

 

So, we have increased the supply of college educated people and the value of the degree has decreased.  Humph.  2+2 =/= 5.  Why does this keep happening!?!

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8 minutes ago, Flip Flop said:

Back in the good ole days when a college degree nearly guaranteed a career, there were a lot fewer people going to college.  The percentage of the population that has a college degree has nearly doubled since the 60's.  

 

So, we have increased the supply of college educated people and the value of the degree has decreased.  Humph.  2+2 =/= 5.  Why does this keep happening!?!

I think you hit the nail on the head in your first statement. Kids thought the college degree "guarantees" them a career. It was never that way. It helps get you an opportunity for a career. You still have to work hard to "make" a career for yourself.

A college degree also helps people get through the glass ceiling while pursuing their career. It's more difficult to transition into management and upper management without one. But I can't tell you how many young people get into a job and have a terrible work ethic. The one's with a great work ethic are very successful and don't have the same struggles other kids are whining about. 

In other words, it's the work ethic and pride in having a career that has evaporated. People don't stick with jobs for 20-30 years anymore. They don't want to put in the extra effort because they don't get paid more for working more than 40 hours. I'm not saying this applies to everyone, just a very large percentage of kids graduating college these days. They slacked their way through college and take that same approach to any job they do get. The reality sets in that they need to "earn" a living after spending years with the delusion that a college degree "rewards" them with a career.

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1 hour ago, pzummo said:

Mechanic. Cook. Fedex. Software developer. Web developer. Network engineer. Call Center first tier support. Telemarketing. Car salesman. 

You do not need a college education for any career path. It helps to have one, but it is not required. I found a job for $10/hour when I was 20 working in a Call Center. I learned the details of what I was taking calls for, worked my way up to tier 2, tier 3 support, and into an $80k per year engineering job by the time I was 23 without a college degree. I didn't get my college degree until I was 25 because I put my career first and took night classes. 

Based on personal experience, I went from being a mechanic at Goodyear making $8/hour to an $80k per year engineering job without a college degree. It was extremely difficult. I focused on outworking every person that sat on their degree thinking that made them worth more than me. 

And FTR, in the industry I am in, we value certifications more than any college degree. My college degree added $0 to my salary. Obtaining my CCIE added $$$ to my salary. So forgive me if I call bull**** on all of these excuses about not being able to work in a freaking plant and there not being jobs for people with just a HS diploma. 

How does your situation apply to the millions of people being discussed here? Surely you aren't arguing there are millions of 80k /yr jobs out there and the only thing keeping people from them is work ethic.

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Oh yes, kids these days are just inherently lazier than the previous generation. To quote Socrates, "The counts of the indictment are luxury, bad manners, contempt for authority, disrespect to elders, and a love for chatter in place of exercise."

The fact of the matter is that college degrees are quickly becoming the bare minimum, and this isn't a shocking new thing millennials made up.

http://burning-glass.com/research/credentials-gap/
http://i.imgur.com/1MP5b9V.png

So again, with the requirement more and more being that you should have a degree before you even step foot in at the entry level position, and college tuition having rapidly increased over the past two decades, what are we going to do about having a larger and larger ratio of college graduates having massive levels of debt.

Also, why would you expect younger people to stick to a job long term when the previous recession and the current corporate culture has proven that there's absolutely no loyalty to the employee. Benefits are decreasing, jobs are quickly shipped across our borders, wage rates are flattening or decreasing when you adjust for inflation, and so forth

And fun fact, ~80% of high school to college students work part-time jobs. So much for being lazy.

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10 hours ago, Joremarid said:

How does your situation apply to the millions of people being discussed here? Surely you aren't arguing there are millions of 80k /yr jobs out there and the only thing keeping people from them is work ethic.

The majority of people that suck at life, suck at life because they are lazy.  That's just a fact. 

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11 hours ago, Free Radical said:

Oh yes, kids these days are just inherently lazier than the previous generation. To quote Socrates, "The counts of the indictment are luxury, bad manners, contempt for authority, disrespect to elders, and a love for chatter in place of exercise."

The fact of the matter is that college degrees are quickly becoming the bare minimum, and this isn't a shocking new thing millennials made up.

http://burning-glass.com/research/credentials-gap/
http://i.imgur.com/1MP5b9V.png

So again, with the requirement more and more being that you should have a degree before you even step foot in at the entry level position, and college tuition having rapidly increased over the past two decades, what are we going to do about having a larger and larger ratio of college graduates having massive levels of debt.

Also, why would you expect younger people to stick to a job long term when the previous recession and the current corporate culture has proven that there's absolutely no loyalty to the employee. Benefits are decreasing, jobs are quickly shipped across our borders, wage rates are flattening or decreasing when you adjust for inflation, and so forth

And fun fact, ~80% of high school to college students work part-time jobs. So much for being lazy.

Having a job and being a hard worker are two differebt things. Read this article about Google's experience with college grads.

http://qz.com/180247/why-google-doesnt-care-about-hiring-top-college-graduates/

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3 minutes ago, pzummo said:

Having a job and being a hard worker are two differebt things. Read this article about Google's experience with college grads.

http://qz.com/180247/why-google-doesnt-care-about-hiring-top-college-graduates/

Okay, great for Google, but it's a fact that requirements for college degrees are quickly rising. What one edge-case company does, does not change this trend.

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You can't outwork stupid

 

also, you can work 3 jobs at $10 and all it takes to destroy you is one illness or one thing to break down that needs a major repair.  Hard work doesn't help if you suck at money.  What you call common sense others have never had to experience.

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14 hours ago, Free Radical said:

Okay, great for Google, but it's a fact that requirements for college degrees are quickly rising. What one edge-case company does, does not change this trend.

I was referring to the fact that even Google is calling out the flawed approach kids have coming out of college. They have a set expectation of how they should be valued without having earned it, and they want it to be their way more than they want it to be the right way.

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1 hour ago, pzummo said:

I was referring to the fact that even Google is calling out the flawed approach kids have coming out of college. They have a set expectation of how they should be valued without having earned it, and they want it to be their way more than they want it to be the right way.

Blah blah, the millenials are a bunch of no good entitled kids who don't have good ole fashioned values. I'll be waiting for something relevant when you got it. 

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2 hours ago, Free Radical said:

Blah blah, the millenials are a bunch of no good entitled kids who don't have good ole fashioned values. I'll be waiting for something relevant when you got it. 

I wouldn't say it's just millenials. There were many in my generation like that. I think it's a societal or maturity thing. Whatever the reason, if you've been in the workforce, you would know how difficult it is finding good employees. We interview at least 100 people per month, and 99-100 of them do not even understand the technology they work with.

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1 hour ago, pzummo said:

I wouldn't say it's just millenials. There were many in my generation like that. I think it's a societal or maturity thing. Whatever the reason, if you've been in the workforce, you would know how difficult it is finding good employees. We interview at least 100 people per month, and 99-100 of them do not even understand the technology they work with.

A.S. in Programming, B.S. in Computer Science, and working on my masters. Working full time in software before I graduated with an associates. Paid my own way through college, and worked in the restaurant business before that waiting tables. Worked as an intern for six months before I was hired, and they hired me because I busted my *** off and the only time I wasn't up there was when I wasn't working my day job or handling school. Most of my work has been in .NET programming, C++ and C# mostly.

Again, I don't believe people are fundamentally different than they were 20 years ago. It's just a fact that the challenges and issues we have now are different than they were 20 years ago, and we need to adjust or it's going to hurt. Our educational system needs and overhaul, and the political climate is very hostile to the solutions we need.

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