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Reasons to like Keanu Neal to Falcons @ 17


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26 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

But not near dead last in hurries.....which sort of suggests that the lack of sacks could be the result of another cause other than "rushing the passer" 

 

I get it, sacks are overrated.  The same theory Mike Smith proclaimed but was dismissed by the same people championing the same thing said slightly differently. 

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13 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

Mike Smith was correct. He was never incorrect on that point. 

But thats not really what my point was. 

Hurries alone is a meaningless without knowing how much time the QB had in the pocket. What was the Falcons QB time to throw stat so we can put the hurries in perspective. after all  a hurry after 5 seconds isn't equal to a hurry in 2 seconds. 

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14 minutes ago, insight said:

Hurries alone is a meaningless without knowing how much time the QB had in the pocket. What was the Falcons QB time to throw stat so we can put the hurries in perspective. after all  a hurry after 5 seconds isn't equal to a hurry in 2 seconds. 

And those issues are just as inherent in sacks as they are in hurries. Afterall, a sack after 6 seconds isnt the same as a sack after a second and a half. 

I'm not sure why hurries would be any different...especially given that hurries occur over a larger sample. 

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1 hour ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

And those issues are just as inherent in sacks as they are in hurries. Afterall, a sack after 6 seconds isnt the same as a sack after a second and a half. 

I'm not sure why hurries would be any different...especially given that hurries occur over a larger sample. 

Yes Time is always a critical piece of the equation bu let's t focus on the Falcons  QB hurry stats in connection with the opposing QB's passing completion. Was the opposing QB's completion lowered by these QB hurries compared to how they performed against other defenses?  If so, I would be inclined to believe the pressures actually affected the QB's ability to throw accurate or make the proper read. 

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When you're 7th in the league in hurries, 32nd in sacks, top 5 (don't know the exact stat) in yards allowed to WRs, but 32nd in yards allowed to TEs and RBs, it's not a problem with pass rush. It's a problem with dump offs and safety valves. 

You can try to "oh so sacks are overrated" or "How many seconds before the hurry" all you want - the eye test confirms it and the statistics are overwhelming. 

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9 minutes ago, Falcan Moore said:

When you're 7th in the league in hurries, 32nd in sacks, top 5 (don't know the exact stat) in yards allowed to WRs, but 32nd in yards allowed to TEs and RBs, it's not a problem with pass rush. It's a problem with dump offs and safety valves. 

You can try to "oh so sacks are overrated" or "How many seconds before the hurry" all you want - the eye test confirms it and the statistics are overwhelming. 

Well your theory is what is being pitched on how the pass rush will be fixed.  With virtually the same cast of characters to rush the passer,   we shall definitely see....

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21 minutes ago, Falcan Moore said:

When you're 7th in the league in hurries, 32nd in sacks, top 5 (don't know the exact stat) in yards allowed to WRs, but 32nd in yards allowed to TEs and RBs, it's not a problem with pass rush. It's a problem with dump offs and safety valves. 

You can try to "oh so sacks are overrated" or "How many seconds before the hurry" all you want - the eye test confirms it and the statistics are overwhelming. 

When Matt Ryan was under duress last season he threw the ball directly to opposing defense  in more than one game because he was under pressure, not because he was up against Luke Kuechly every week. Real QB pressure leads to poor decisions and inaccurate throws, which is exactly what several teams were able to do with Matt Ryan.  

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1 hour ago, insight said:

When Matt Ryan was under duress last season he threw the ball directly to opposing defense  in more than one game because he was under pressure, not because he was up against Luke Kuechly every week. Real QB pressure leads to poor decisions and inaccurate throws, which is exactly what several teams were able to do with Matt Ryan.  

I would argue that it was far more to do with Ryan messing up and getting used to the scheme, and Person was more a poor snapper and decent blocker, as Ryan was fairly clean in the pocket last year compared to years previous, and made far more INTs while under very little duress, but fine - let's go with what you're saying.

We were tied for 3rd in the NFL with just 19 passing TDs allowed. We were tied for 10th for INTs with 15 INTs.

Clearly, our defense was causing plenty of mistakes and not having too many of our own on the back end. Heck, Ryan only had 1 more INT thrown than our defense got, so saying he was constantly under pressure (despite throwing many picks with plenty of time) and our defense didn't cause any (with all evidence to the contrary) is absurd.

Personally, I've changed my mind plenty of times in the past when people gave good arguments backed by plenty of evidence. I'm just hoping people in this thread won't be too stubborn to do the same.  This is just way too obvious to gloss over.

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1 hour ago, Falcan Moore said:

I would argue that it was far more to do with Ryan messing up and getting used to the scheme, and Person was more a poor snapper and decent blocker, as Ryan was fairly clean in the pocket last year compared to years previous, and made far more INTs while under very little duress, but fine - let's go with what you're saying.

We were tied for 3rd in the NFL with just 19 passing TDs allowed. We were tied for 10th for INTs with 15 INTs.

Clearly, our defense was causing plenty of mistakes and not having too many of our own on the back end. Heck, Ryan only had 1 more INT thrown than our defense got, so saying he was constantly under pressure (despite throwing many picks with plenty of time) and our defense didn't cause any (with all evidence to the contrary) is absurd.

Personally, I've changed my mind plenty of times in the past when people gave good arguments backed by plenty of evidence. I'm just hoping people in this thread won't be too stubborn to do the same.  This is just way too obvious to gloss over.

The majority of Ryan's interceptions weren't pressure based at all. He just made a number of bad/late decisions. 

 

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2 hours ago, Falcan Moore said:

I would argue that it was far more to do with Ryan messing up and getting used to the scheme, and Person was more a poor snapper and decent blocker, as Ryan was fairly clean in the pocket last year compared to years previous, and made far more INTs while under very little duress, but fine - let's go with what you're saying.

We were tied for 3rd in the NFL with just 19 passing TDs allowed. We were tied for 10th for INTs with 15 INTs.

Clearly, our defense was causing plenty of mistakes and not having too many of our own on the back end. Heck, Ryan only had 1 more INT thrown than our defense got, so saying he was constantly under pressure (despite throwing many picks with plenty of time) and our defense didn't cause any (with all evidence to the contrary) is absurd.

Personally, I've changed my mind plenty of times in the past when people gave good arguments backed by plenty of evidence. I'm just hoping people in this thread won't be too stubborn to do the same.  This is just way too obvious to gloss over.

The problem was mulit-faceted we can all agree on that but if Ryan has a built in clock in his head because he is afraid the pocket will collapse that's pressure in my book. If this wasn't a huge issue than their would be no need to pay Mack a huge money to replace Person if we just needed someone to snap the ball better.  I still don't understand why Shanny made wholesale changes to the offensive line one week before the regular season started. 

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8 hours ago, insight said:

I agree the are multiple ways to build a team, some positions and skill sets are more abundant than others. The QB position is the hardest position to fill via the draft which is why when there are good players teams are will to pay a premium to obtain a QB. Historically safeties taken in the first round have the versatility to play free or strong safety, and or corner.  The players I mentioned  forced the offensive coordinators and QB's to account for them on every play and game plane around them.  Each of the players I mentioned could create a turn over and take it to the house on any given play. 

Neal is a great pick but that doesn't negate the fact we paid a premium to obtain him for a player with his skillset. Julio was a great pick as well but who do you believe got a greater value, Cincy with A.J Greene or Atlanta wit Julio? Both elite players with drastically different price tags. 

Cincy got Green at their draft position. Falcons had to trade up for Julio. Did I miss something?

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3 hours ago, Tim Mazetti said:

Cincy got Green at their draft position. Falcons had to trade up for Julio. Did I miss something?

You didn't miss anything if you understand, Atlanta paid a much higher premium to obtain a similar talent. 

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On 5/6/2016 at 9:08 PM, insight said:

You didn't miss anything if you understand, Atlanta paid a much higher premium to obtain a similar talent. 

I get the idea that if you really want a player you will have to pay a premium. The good (winning) teams have to trade up if they want a certain outstanding prospect. Happens often. 

Do you think that the Falcons should have passed on Neal to get a player that had a higher draft grade, then? Even if the player was not a player at a position of need, just for value?

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1 hour ago, Tim Mazetti said:

I get the idea that if you really want a player you will have to pay a premium. The good (winning) teams have to trade up if they want a certain outstanding prospect. Happens often. 

Do you think that the Falcons should have passed on Neal to get a player that had a higher draft grade, then? Even if the player was not a player at a position of need, just for value?

I don't have the resources TD and Quinn have but from my vantage point help on the defensive line is one of the teams most pressing needs and there were players on who received higher draft grades at DE and OLB that were available. I would have gone there in the 1st round and I don't think you would have found one person who would be disappointed we passed on Neal.  

I think Neal was a very solid pick, I love his physically and he seems like a outstanding individual but I would have rolled the dice that he would still be there in the 2nd because  I think there are more players around the league who can do similar things do if we missed, we would still be OK. 

 I think character and off-field personality weighs heavy in TD draft formulas which is why he may have been our pick.  

Another factor maybe Brooks Reed, who is the highest paid defensive player we brought in last year. They need to get production out of him to justify the contract so bringing in another DE would cloud that situation.

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On 5/5/2016 at 9:08 AM, insight said:

I agree the are multiple ways to build a team, some positions and skill sets are more abundant than others. The QB position is the hardest position to fill via the draft which is why when there are good players teams are will to pay a premium to obtain a QB. Historically safeties taken in the first round have the versatility to play free or strong safety, and or corner.  The players I mentioned  forced the offensive coordinators and QB's to account for them on every play and game plane around them.  Each of the players I mentioned could create a turn over and take it to the house on any given play. 

Neal is a great pick but that doesn't negate the fact we paid a premium to obtain him for a player with his skillset. Julio was a great pick as well but who do you believe got a greater value, Cincy with A.J Greene or Atlanta wit Julio? Both elite players with drastically different price tags. 

So your saying we paid a premium for a player that could have been gone a few picks later? Got it. Outsiders and media have you convinced that Neal was a reach. We would have lost out on a highly regarded play if we didn't pick him at 17. He was one of the players we targeted at 17. Every team has players rated differently. He was high on our list based off what we do. Would pick a player that doesn't fit what you want to do or match your scheme?

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Wore 42 in college, cited Ronnie Lott as a player he liked to watch - check!

He loves to hit, set the tone for the D, is smart and just wants to play ball. - Check!

If he can be half the player Lott was...

 

 

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15 hours ago, Falcon918 said:

So your saying we paid a premium for a player that could have been gone a few picks later? Got it. Outsiders and media have you convinced that Neal was a reach. We would have lost out on a highly regarded play if we didn't pick him at 17. He was one of the players we targeted at 17. Every team has players rated differently. He was high on our list based off what we do. Would pick a player that doesn't fit what you want to do or match your scheme?

No, I see it this way, QB's are the most valuable position, the next level is the positions that affect the QB, which are DE's and CB's on defense, and Tackles and a #1 receivers on offense.  The Falcons have their QB, and Wide out and Tackle but DE is still a big question mark outside of Beasley. I would have addressed this 1st before seeking a safety, if Brooks Reeds or someone steps up opposite of Beasley it's a mute point, but based on our history with pass rush I'm not convinced. 

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