Wondering why we aren't spending $$$ for pass rushers?

[maxatlanta]

Quinn is a pass rush and DL guru. What he brings to a team is the ability to identify and train up talented Dline players. This includes the draft, and also veteran signings like Bennett and Avril in SEA.

 

Quinn offers a chance to have a pass rush without spending big money on it. If we had an OL version of him, I doubt we would've spent that money on Mack. But we don't. 

 

Tldr: We can develop pass rushers with Quinn but must spend on positions we can't.

[Ovie_Lover]

What.

[Realist]

28 minutes ago, maxatlanta said:

Quinn is a pass rush and DL guru. What he brings to a team is the ability to identify and train up talented Dline players. This includes the draft, and also veteran signings like Bennett and Avril in SEA.

 

Quinn offers a chance to have a pass rush without spending big money on it. If we had an OL version of him, I doubt we would've spent that money on Mack. But we don't. 

 

Tldr: We can develop pass rushers with Quinn but must spend on positions we can't.

Bennett and Avril were established pass-rushers before they went to Seattle. They also cost a decent amount of money if I remember correctly. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Realist

[Kayoh]

3 minutes ago, Realist said:

Bennett and Avril were established pass-rushers before they went to Seattle. They also cost a decent amount of money if I remember correctly. 

Avril was, Bennett wasn't. Bennett prior to going to Seattle basically had the exact same career trajectory and skill set as Derrick Shelby so far in his career. I think that's why Quinn brought Shelby in for us - he's very similar in pretty much every facet to what Bennett was in Tampa. I wanted Bennett really badly the year he was a FA and he ended up working out great for Seattle. Shelby is going to be great for us this year. Fully expect him to be our starting base end opposite Vic.

To OP, we kinda already did spend a little on pass rushers. Derrick Shelby and Adrian Clayborn completely lock down the strong side of our DE depth chart. Vic is weakside and while we need a backup for him, I'm guessing the FO saw enough in him down the stretch in 2015 that we're putting a lot of trust in him to hold the fort down as our starter and full-time LEO this year. Probably grab a lower tier guy off FA or potentially even draft someone. Not sure if Schofield is coming back but he's a nice piece to play outside opposite Vic in passing downs when Clayborn/Shelby kicks in to rush from a 3 tech spot.

I do think we'll pick at least one more pass rusher up, but more of a pure edge rush guy where Shelby can rush from the outside or inside.

I wonder if Aldon Smith is even under consideration. He's still talented.

[Realist]

Just now, Kayoh said:

Avril was, Bennett wasn't. Bennett prior to going to Seattle basically had the exact same career trajectory and skill set as Derrick Shelby so far in his career. I think that's why Quinn brought Shelby in for us - he's very similar in pretty much every facet to what Bennett was in Tampa. I wanted Bennett really badly the year he was a FA and he ended up working out great for Seattle. Shelby is going to be great for us this year. Fully expect him to be our starting base end opposite Vic.

 

Are you kidding? I live in Gainesville, so the Bucs are always on. His 2012 season (the first one the dumbass bucs ever really gave him a chance to start) was very good. I think he around around 9 sacks and 3 FFs.

[high impact]

39 minutes ago, maxatlanta said:

Quinn is a pass rush and DL guru. What he brings to a team is the ability to identify and train up talented Dline players. This includes the draft, and also veteran signings like Bennett and Avril in SEA.

 

Quinn offers a chance to have a pass rush without spending big money on it. If we had an OL version of him, I doubt we would've spent that money on Mack. But we don't. 

 

Tldr: We can develop pass rushers with Quinn but must spend on positions we can't.

Well they better hit in the draft then. I sure did not see much if any of the pass rush and DL guruing going on last year, With no addition to the Falcons DL and pass rush in FA to improve it, they have no other choice. 

I can't wait to see this years new pass rush!!!!

[Kayoh]

Just now, Realist said:

Are you kidding? I live in Gainesville, so the Bucs are always on. His 2012 season (the first one the dumbass bucs ever really gave him a chance to start) was very good. I think he around around 9 sacks and 3 FFs.

yeah, that was also a contract year and people were questioning whether he was just playing harder to get paid. He didn't get paid like an elite edge rusher though - 1 year for $4.8m before re-signing with the Hawks for 4 years, $28.5m. Just looking at his career with the Bucs he had the one 9 sack season in his contract year, but prior to that he had 3, 1, and 1.

[Ben Day Hoe]

14 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

Avril was, Bennett wasn't. Bennett prior to going to Seattle basically had the exact same career trajectory and skill set as Derrick Shelby so far in his career. I think that's why Quinn brought Shelby in for us - he's very similar in pretty much every facet to what Bennett was in Tampa. I wanted Bennett really badly the year he was a FA and he ended up working out great for Seattle. Shelby is going to be great for us this year. Fully expect him to be our starting base end opposite Vic.

To OP, we kinda already did spend a little on pass rushers. Derrick Shelby and Adrian Clayborn completely lock down the strong side of our DE depth chart. Vic is weakside and while we need a backup for him, I'm guessing the FO saw enough in him down the stretch in 2015 that we're putting a lot of trust in him to hold the fort down as our starter and full-time LEO this year. Probably grab a lower tier guy off FA or potentially even draft someone. Not sure if Schofield is coming back but he's a nice piece to play outside opposite Vic in passing downs when Clayborn/Shelby kicks in to rush from a 3 tech spot.

I do think we'll pick at least one more pass rusher up, but more of a pure edge rush guy where Shelby can rush from the outside or inside.

I wonder if Aldon Smith is even under consideration. He's still talented.

I think a lot of Falcons fans on this board are going to be pleasantly surprised with Shelby!

[Realist]

3 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

yeah, that was also a contract year and people were questioning whether he was just playing harder to get paid. He didn't get paid like an elite edge rusher though - 1 year for $4.8m before re-signing with the Hawks for 4 years, $28.5m. Just looking at his career with the Bucs he had the one 9 sack season in his contract year, but prior to that he had 3, 1, and 1.

How does it being a contract year matter at all? He proved he could be an effective player before going to the Seahawks. Yes, the contract year is an incentive to kick ***, but still so many players don't perform well in them because they're simply not capable. Plus, he had 4 sacks in 2011 in only 13 games. That was the fist year he started to get a decent amount of snaps. 

[Kayoh]

5 minutes ago, Realist said:

How does it being a contract year matter at all? He proved he could be an effective player before going to the Seahawks. Yes, the contract year is an incentive to kick ***, but still so many players don't perform well in them because they're simply not capable. Plus, he had 4 sacks in 2011 in only 13 games. That was the fist year he started to get a decent amount of snaps. 

You can go back on this board to the 2013 free agency time period, even in the draft/free agency board. Hardly anybody was talking about Bennett. Very few people had Bennett on their free agent wish lists. He wasn't a hot commodity at all, and we needed a DE desperately that year. Everybody wanted guys like Avril, Paul Kruger, Galette, etc

[Realist]

Just now, Kayoh said:

You can go back on this board to the 2013 free agency time period, even in the draft/free agency board. Hardly anybody was talking about Bennett. Very few people had Bennett on their free agent wish lists. He wasn't a hot commodity at all, and we needed a DE desperately that year. Everybody wanted guys like Avril, Paul Kruger, Galette, etc

Okay.. So what you're saying is because TATF posters didn't want Bennett, then he wasn't an established player, right? 

[Power I]

I sure hope we don't fall into that "I'm an amazing coach so I don't need good players" crap. How about we get really good players and have him try to make them elite? I would rather that route since if he doesn't make them even better they're still good. If we're trying to improve below average to average players and make them good, inevitably we're going to be stuck with some average players who don't improve.  

[Kayoh]

Just now, Realist said:

Okay.. So what you're saying is because TATF posters didn't want Bennett, then he wasn't an established player, right? 

I'm using TATF as a small sample of a wider fanbase to generalize, yeah. This board might not be the most accurate scouting community but the one thing I can honestly say is that in general, if a good player is available, this is the first place to scream "BRING HIM HOME!"

There were no "BRING MICHAEL BENNETT HOME, TD!" threads. At least not that I remember.

[Bawse]

Dimitroff is clueless and thinks we don't need a defense. 

[Ben Day Hoe]

16 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

I'm using TATF as a small sample of a wider fanbase to generalize, yeah. This board might not be the most accurate scouting community but the one thing I can honestly say is that in general, if a good player is available, this is the first place to scream "BRING HIM HOME!"

There were no "BRING MICHAEL BENNETT HOME, TD!" threads. At least not that I remember.

Choked on my beer a little on that one

Edited March 13, 2016 by Ben Day Hoe

[Falconsfan567]

1 hour ago, maxatlanta said:

Quinn is a pass rush and DL guru. What he brings to a team is the ability to identify and train up talented Dline players. This includes the draft, and also veteran signings like Bennett and Avril in SEA.

 

Quinn offers a chance to have a pass rush without spending big money on it. If we had an OL version of him, I doubt we would've spent that money on Mack. But we don't. 

 

Tldr: We can develop pass rushers with Quinn but must spend on positions we can't.

I keep seeing tldr on here and I haven't got a clue what it means. Am I the only one that doesn't know what it means?

[Kayoh]

1 minute ago, Falconsfan567 said:

I keep seeing tldr on here and I haven't got a clue what it means. Am I the only one that doesn't know what it means?

tl;dr: too long; didn't read

[Bobby.Digital]

18 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

I'm using TATF as a small sample of a wider fanbase to generalize, yeah. This board might not be the most accurate scouting community but the one thing I can honestly say is that in general, if a good player is available, this is the first place to scream "BRING HIM HOME!"

There were no "BRING MICHAEL BENNETT HOME, TD!" threads. At least not that I remember.

Dude Bennett was a good pass rusher before he got to Seattle.  Don't even try to deny it. Your excuses as to why he wasn't are:

1) Contract year

2) Taft wasn't talking about him

Smh. Point number 2 is ridiculous. Since when does majority of TAFT ever ask for someone who isn't a "game changer." FA To make it even worse you said yourself " I wanted him badly". 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Bobby.Digital

[Realist]

13 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

I'm using TATF as a small sample of a wider fanbase to generalize, yeah. This board might not be the most accurate scouting community but the one thing I can honestly say is that in general, if a good player is available, this is the first place to scream "BRING HIM HOME!"

There were no "BRING MICHAEL BENNETT HOME, TD!" threads. At least not that I remember.

This board seems to focus on the "home-run" FAs, so it's possible no one on this board wanted Bennett. Still, that doesn't mean he was an effective pass-rusher. Many analysts were praising the move when the Seahawks signed him. 

[Kayoh]

3 minutes ago, Bobby.Digital said:

Dude Bennett was a good pass rusher before he got to Seattle.  Don't even try to deny it. 

2 minutes ago, Realist said:

This board seems to focus on the "home-run" FAs, so it's possible no one on this board wanted Bennett. Still, that doesn't mean he was an effective pass-rusher. Many analysts were praising the move when the Seahawks signed him. 

I'm not trying to say he wasn't good before he got to Seattle. He was a good player in Tampa, especially in 2012 when he got the opportunity to play almost every snap. What I'm saying is that this Derrick Shelby signing is about as high profile as the Bennett signing was in 2013 and that Derrick Shelby is about as good a player right now as Bennett was at this time that year.

[Realist]

15 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

I'm not trying to say he wasn't good before he got to Seattle. He was a good player in Tampa, especially in 2012 when he got the opportunity to play almost every snap. What I'm saying is that this Derrick Shelby signing is about as high profile as the Bennett signing was in 2013 and that Derrick Shelby is about as good a player right now as Bennett was at this time that year.

Shelby has as many sacks in his career as Bennett had in 2013 lol. 

[Kayoh]

Just now, Realist said:

Shelby has as many sacks in his career as Bennett had in 2013 lol. 

sacks aren't everything.

[Bobby.Digital]

Just now, Kayoh said:

I'm not trying to say he wasn't good before he got to Seattle. He was a good player in Tampa, especially in 2012 when he got the opportunity to play almost every snap. What I'm saying is that this Derrick Shelby signing is about as high profile as the Bennett signing was in 2013 and that Derrick Shelby is about as good a player right now as Bennett was at this time that year.

Not really. Bennett was talked about lots. Mabey not on this site (I wasn't here then) but on another site I frequent he was talked about. Alot of people thought the Seahawks "won" FA with getting two good DEs for under market value. 

At this point in his career Shelby is more 2011 Benett than 2012. Which is why Bennett was a more higher profile signing. 

However I do agree with you. Shelby is a very underrated signing. I remember visiting Dolphin forums before FA and most wanted to sign Shelby over Vernon. Considering contracts and value provided of course. I was happy to see us sign him. Wouldn't be suprised if he has a break out year like Bennett did in 2012. 

[Realist]

5 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

sacks aren't everything.

Then what is? I'm pretty sure Bennett had him beat in any stat. Shelby could be good, but he's not on Bennett's pre-seahawks level yet.

[Kayoh]

4 minutes ago, Realist said:

Then what is? I'm pretty sure Bennett had him beat in any stat. Shelby could be good, but he's not on Bennett's pre-seahawks level yet.

consistently generating pressure, whether you take the QB down or not, is a better sign of a good pass rusher than just looking at sack #. Especially when you compare QB pressures to how many total pass rush snaps the player had, so you can get a basis for around what % of pass rush attempts the player is able to generate pressure on.

Let me also make this clear: I'm not trying to discredit Michael Bennett's 2012 or Bennett as a pass rusher at all. What I'm trying to do is illustrate that Derrick Shelby is a much better player than you guys are giving him credit for. What I was trying to establish earlier regarding Bennett was that despite having a really solid 2012, he wasn't a highly sought after free agent and his name wasn't thrown around much in FA discussions. He went under the radar. As did Shelby - nobody here necessarily wanted him, but there were probably just as many circles talking about Shelby being a good player this year as there were in 2012 regarding Bennett.